Potentially 7-8 U.S. Soccer presidential candidates:
Paul Caligiuri Carlos Cordeiro Steve Gans Paul Lapointe Kyle Martino Michael Winograd Eric Wynalda Sunil Gulati ?
Most calling for BIG changes. IMO common topics seem to be, transparency, better decision making, separating business side from technical side, USMNT, promotion/ relegation, overhaul of youth soccer system. I’m not sure if anybody really knows how this will pan out but Interested to hear points-of-view?
I would choose a write-n vote for "footy", "Soccerhouse" "zico" or any number of posters here over the establishment. They can run on the slogan "Make soccer great again".
One of my pet peeves is when referees do not do their job. Issue a deserved card, yet do not do the necessary paper work with the card. Referees that do not work hard in a match. Nobody truly expects perfection, however if the ref is working hard, we will all usually give them a bit of slack. Referees that do not take up for a kid referee. Don’t put a 14 year old kid right in front of parents, and then not defend that kid when parents are going off on them.
Then, I really do not like it when parents go nuts on a kid referee. So many of these parents would go crazy if a teacher or coach treated their child the way they treat a kid referee.
As I inferred earlier, I am very much on the side of parents keeping their mouths shut during the game, but you do have a point about refs that aren't working hard. It drives me crazy when I see an AR that is staring off into space and not staying in line with the deepest defender. I get that it can be boring ref'ing a younger age game sometimes, but when you can't call an obvious offside or direct who's ball it is on a throw in because you aren't paying attention, your simply providing these parents the ammunition they need to go off on the refs in the first place. Which, again, is not what I or anyone else likes to see.
I don't care if it's a ref crew that allows a little more contact versus one that calls everything close... as long as they are focused and attempting to do their job to best they can, I'm fine. Side note: I have told my daughter "watch for what is being called and what isn't, and play accordingly".
Post by soccerlegacy on Nov 6, 2017 13:16:00 GMT -5
Yeah... I have yet to have seen malicious intent at the U8 thru U11 ages. Mostly awkwardness or a kid just realizing they are bigger and can use their size to gain an advantage. I have seen a yellow given out during a U10 game, and the girl was devastated... she had no intention of harming anyone. As for the parents, when I hear someone call for it in those younger ages, I just laugh, because I realize just how little they know or how over-the-top into it they really are.
Parents going after the refs could be easily remedied with the right kind of coach. For instance, one of my daughters coaches set the expectations at the beginning of the season, that we are not to have any outbursts (especially at the refs) and if we do, our child will receive less playing time. So this Saturday,we see one of the other teams' players extend the arms all the way out on one of our girls (shoving her to the ground) and our whole sideline blurts out some "Hey!" and "Come on!" comments ... with in seconds our coach reprimands everyone by simply yelling "Parents!" across the field.... immediately we shut up. He was going to handle it and we knew he was in charge, it was actually quite refreshing.
Post by soccerlegacy on Oct 25, 2017 10:14:07 GMT -5
So how do you go about changing the culture of pay to play? IS there a way?
I wish there was some soccer fanatical philanthropist that would start up a club that made it affordable to ALL youth players. I know this is corny, but I often think about what I would do if I ever won one of those Powerball lotteries.... I have dreamt of buying a prime, centrally located field (not some flood plain), paying top notch coaches and then charging (a bare minimum fee just to cover basics like uniforms and equipment) and open it up for anyone to come and play, putting the emphasis on the players and not the organization. Then, sit back and watch it flourish as a powerhouse.
No question is a huge flaw with DA. So much structure, mandatory minimum 4 nights of training etc. I hear rumors of 5 nights of training at certain clubs. Scale back go 2 or 3 nights with a night dedicated to just free play, pickup.
When was the last time you saw a bunch of DA players playing a pick up game.
Kids are off on a weekend, no games, what happens -- coach schedules either a formal training session or scrimmage as replacement.
No, open the damn fields, and just let the kids play. throw down something for goals, and play. A coach shouldn't be within 20 miles of these session. Let the kids play, have fun and enjoy the game without the fear of getting yelled out or traumatized because they couldn't trap a terrible pass.
Agreed. I'm sure some of you have seen the Pulisic '60 minutes' interview where they say he only did 2 nights a week growing up. Instead our system doubles down again and again thinking quantity of training is more important than quality of training. Maybe they think they have to justify the outrageous cost by coaching more days... IDK!! I'm just a frustrated dad watching what once was a fun, enjoyable sport being changed into a stressful, all-or-nothing, business world.
Sounds like a bad club, tryouts in June are just around the corner so start looking for a club that focuses on coaching and not just getting paid.
What is it that makes it a bad club in your eyes? Is it the charging for 3 practices instead of 2? or is it that they have open play on one the nights? fyi, I'm not related to whatever club this person is referencing, ours doens't have an open night.
I think it's because they feel they've reached the end of the "pro" track. Now they have to deal with the realization that College is the next best thing. This is why many folks take Atlanta United up on their offer. AU's first goal is to build for the top team, however if they fail, then you have a good opportunity to show well for colleges and possibly get an education. I had a coach who would always say, the best players in the world with the proper training, diet, genetics and luck, can play till their 40s, what then? You still need an education of some sort to help you for your second life.
What Futsal said....
I know as a parent I would be pushing my kid towards college just from the shear statistics of it. The percentage of players that make a career out of professional sports vs getting an education that will support them for the rest of their life, its a no-brainer from my perspective.
But that is what is so damn interesting - why are nba and nfl college prospects so damn hungry to make it and prove they are the best. Why is soccer so much different, does it come down to the failure and inadequacies of the mens college game?
It always reminds me of Mike Fisher, back to back Hermann Trophy Winner and 2nd pick over all in the MLS college draft back in the 90s. He declined to join the team and instead went to Med School.
Could it be that for NBA and NFL prospects, they see it as there way out of the environments they grew up in? Even though I hate to admit it, soccer is a much more "elitist" sport with many of the kids coming from affluent homes and backgrounds. It is stressed upon them that education is the way to maintain that lifestyle. This affluence also lends itself to the upward spiral of pay-to-play mentality which is much more prevalent.
On a side story, you reminded me of a player from FSU named Myron Rolle that was predicted go in the first round of the NFL and turned it down to become a Rhodes scholar over at Oxford University in England and is now a neurosurgeon. Atypical to say least but an incredible story too.
Although I ultimately agree with the majority of your comments and give it a "thumbs up" I am also sick of hearing that "Americans" have a "win only" mentality. You CAN have both.... a DEVELOPMENT and WINNING mentality.... and, no, it shouldn't come at the cost of an arm and a leg.
I don't know what others mean specifically when they talk about winning vs development, but in my opinion they are often at odds with each other. A few examples:
"important" time in games (starting, last few minutes of a close game) not shared amongst players even when the game itself is not meaningful. Getting time in those situations is critical to developing important game skills that cannot be simulated.
academy programs that do not pool but rather pick set teams that practice in isolation (a scrimmage or two doesn't count). Pooling players in the younger ages where the games do not matter gives a player-level pro/rel that pushes players in a way that non-pool play cannot
overemphasis on choosing early puberty players, labeling them as the top players, and pushing down the late bloomers that may have skills and strong soccer sense but simply cannot compete physically against the players that develop physically earlier.
The last one is the worst to me. I saw it time and time again that late bloomers were dismissed in favor of early bloomers that were bigger, stronger, and faster -- the early bloomers got great results! Many of the early bloomers went on to be successful while just as many flamed out once everyone else caught up with them. But the early bloomers get the best minutes, the best training (top teams), and the mental boost of success that can make or break some kids. Other than giving up our "win at all costs" mentality, the only way to solve this is to place players based on biological age rather than chronological age. This would, of course, increase the cost of play. There are no magic answers.
It's funny, I, for the most part, agree with your bullet points. In fact, one of my daughters is currently fighting that belief that because she is smaller, she isn't able to contend with the bigger girls. Doesn't matter that she plays with an aggressiveness and a passion that puts the bigger girls to shame and "wins her the day" on most occasions. She still is perceived as too small most times she steps out on the field of play. It isn't until people see her play that they realize she belongs. Unfortunately, when tryouts are for 3 days with 1-2 hours each, and because they are all at the same freaking date/time (a whole other dumb idea for another discussion) it is hard for her to catch the eyes of those that have already marked her off their list for her size alone.
Still I don't see it as a them having a "winning" mentality because they may pass her by, but rather a lack of understanding, willingness and time, to give her a fair evaluation. As for having your best players on the field at the end of the game... I see no harm in that. Yes, you're objective in a game is to "WIN". If a player wants to be given the opportunity to be out there when it counts, they show that in practice, where the "development" mentality happens.
Oh , and I agree on pool players as well. It should be that way... in fact, I think it should be that way all the way through at least U13 and probably U14 at least. Let the "winning" mentality of the players show who should be on the field and on which 'level' team, weekly, at practice.
So the easiest way to increase the competition in DA is to reduce its size. But there are still entire regions of the country that are not served by DA clubs. You could have a Pulisic-level talent coming through the ranks in North Dakota and chances are no one would notice until he's in his 20's. Unless, of course, his family has the resources to be able to send him hundreds of miles away to play for an MLS club and live with a host family. Even free-to-play clubs are really only free-to-play for kids that have access to affordable transportation to whatever facility they play at. And only a few MLS clubs are even willing to put in that level of scouting for finding young talent (hopefully this failure changes that).
No doubt, we've been saying it for years, look at the map, apparently if your live in Tenn, South Carolina, Arkansas, Miss, Louisiana, Alabama your not good enough.... Hence, whey so many have come to Atlanta.
Yet, places like Iceland and other small countries can develop talent with a population of less than a million people. I'm not buying the argument that the USMNT is not good because we don't identify talent because of geography or because our best athletes are playing other sports. Sure it sucks for the kids that do live in those parts of the country where there isn't an MLS or DA club near by, but we have an over abundance of players and a population to pull from.
On a side note: I don't have the answers, but one thing we don't have is a fully developed minor league system. The NFL, NBA, and MLB all have this.
Hard to watch my son's disappointment last night. He still loves the game. But, it's hard for me also to avoid thinking that we are all just spinning our wheels here.
I'm tired of the parent vs. club blame game ("pay to play", blah blah blah). While coaches and clubs have to put up with the AMERICAN-WIN-WIN mentality, some of us parents are innocently trying to navigate the system that allowed all of these leagues, levels, etc.
It's time for the USSF to place a tourniquet on USSDA, reduce/control the number of teams so it will actually accomplish its mission. And honestly, ODP should cherry pick from the USSDA player pool. Everything else should be intra state soccer.
Although I ultimately agree with the majority of your comments and give it a "thumbs up" I am also sick of hearing that "Americans" have a "win only" mentality. You CAN have both.... a DEVELOPMENT and WINNING mentality.... and, no, it shouldn't come at the cost of an arm and a leg.
I'm right there with you and everyone else trying to navigate the system, I just wish youth soccer hadn't become a big business instead of what it should be... a sport that is passed on by generations because of the love of the game and a desire to see the passion for it live on.
If coaches are coaching the kids properly - as showcased in the video above - there's not a problem. That video shows some nice soccer and there isn't any disruption of play.
As to offside, the player still has to keep in mind the last defender. It's just now, the build out line will is used to denote where offside offenses can be called. The same principles are in effect. Positioning etc. has to change accordingly, but that's on the coach to take care of and have the kids understand.
We will have to agree to disagree. Half-field for offside is not the same as the build out line for offside. It makes the defenders have to stay back three-forths of the way back down the field (positioning). If you've watched a U9 game lately, you would see they don't have the strongest of legs or accuracy to make the drop back pass (at that distance) an option and therefore, there is no way the defenders can support the midfield and visa versa. There is no "connection" between the defense and midfield lines and you leave gaps in coverage between the two team lines.
It simply doesn't promote passing, switching fields (left to right, etc), overlapping, working as a unit... it promotes the opposite.
Post by soccerlegacy on Oct 3, 2017 10:04:31 GMT -5
Nashville is a likely spot for MLS??? REALLY??? Kinda shocked that it would be considered a thriving location for soccer and MLS... but I suppose some said that about Atlanta too... Still, youth soccer has always been thriving in Atlanta... I don't know much about the Nashville scene, just don't hear much about it's youth programs.
Post by soccerlegacy on Oct 3, 2017 9:09:04 GMT -5
Ultimately, I could take it or leave it... I don't mind the concept of the build out line. I've seen too many games where a field player, whose turn it is to be in goal (many of which have no idea how to play goalie), can't get the ball out of the penalty box and teams just intercept and score at will. It frustrating and sad for the players and a team that plays proper soccer to lose a game that way. But if they are going with this concept, they need to think it through and apply sound logic to the rule. (I know... good luck with that, right?)
As I found out this past weekend (and as I think the OP mentioned) it also allows for the attacking team to be in an offside position and not get 'called' because of the build-out line. Crazy! In my daughters game, the team had two players about 5 yards past our last defender and a ball was booted up the field... allowing for a two-on-one against the goalie. Needless to say everyone yells 'offside' and the ref had to explain they are are not offside due to the new rule.
So how does that teach anything properly?? If they had been just few feet farther up the field and past the line, then it WOULD have been called? So your teaching them to ignore the last defender and only focus on this line, but only when you're on that one quarter of the field, then when you pass that line... THEN you focus on the last defender in the final quarter of the field. How does that help when they move to U11 & up and there is no line anymore. These are 8-9 year olds, simplify the concepts, don't make them harder.
Furthermore, as a defender you now can't safely push up the field because even though an opponent is in an offside position (as it use to be), they are no longer offside. This essentially forces them to have to maintain a position at the new build out line. How does that help the player "connect" with the rest of their team when they have possession? Instead of being able to play it back to the defender (because they now have to sit too far back), the midfielder or forwards have to turn into pressure. Not good soccer tactics in my opinion.
So in conclusion, if they are going with the build out line, at least change the attacking portion to make sense.
Post by soccerlegacy on Sept 15, 2017 14:18:25 GMT -5
Some sensitive souls on here I take it... How dare anyone not think Tophat is the end all, be all... LOL I was just playing ... responding back with recognition that a program (meaning OVERALL program) that sweeps a tourney like the State cup is a top quality one in it's own right. We all know Tophat is top quality as well with its history and reputation... just know that reputation from "outsiders perceptions" also has attributes perceived as arrogance and entitlement.
Post by soccerlegacy on Aug 30, 2017 12:07:55 GMT -5
1) Do the AGC's hate the age mandate change as much as the majority of parents do?
2) Are you or other AGC's ticked off that no body from U.S. Soccer is willing to listen to any of the concerns or suggestions from AGC's or parents have when it comes to figuring out what is best for the majority of participants and the growth of the sport?
3) yes you would have difficulty. It is mainly an insurance issue, unless you go to tournaments, only. For information about becoming an affiliate of Georgia Soccer, per their website you should talk with
The "tournaments only" could be a good option... Rural teams or teams that don't have a lot of populations around them often do this in place of a regular season. For instance, I have a buddy that has son playing in Destin, Fl. ... It's a big enough city to have a team but not many other cities or locations nearby that make it feasible for a regular league. Instead, they play only tournaments (which there are plenty of) so their team club fees are minimal and most of the cost goes to tourney entry fees and such. I would also assume its a lot less headache having to find equally matched teams, scheduling out a season, getting referees assigned, etc.
This is absolutely needed in the younger ages...at this age, they need to learn the ability to play out of the back, who cares if they get picked off, the need to learn how to work around that. The build out line will help the players adapt faster vs kids surround the box picking off goal kicks. Punting should not be happening either....teams that punt all the time only care about winning, not developing players.
It's the zero tolerance for punting that I have exception to.... The coaches should teach the kids to play out of the back and verbalize it and praise it when it is done, but sometimes the best option is over the heads of a team that is high pressuring. Once a team sees that they can be bypassed if they are sitting too high up , they will sit back and playing out of the back can continue. On the other hand, forcing a kid to pass out of the back to a player that is tightly covered, just makes no sense and confuses the goalie.
Also, just fyi to someone that asked earlier, I did not see any build outlines in the tournament over the past weekend for a U9 game, but and no calls made for punting, although our team does it correctly and plays out of the back anyway.
I watch as many BVB matches as I can because of him. Is it my imagination or is Pulisic's first touch and ball control much better when he is playing for club than for USMNT?
That's why it's a team game. He does better when he has other players that are just as tactical and technical as him to feed it back and forth. The USMNT just doesn't have that. He's a great player but one man can't do it all alone.
Grade B from my perspective and do agree that some things could of been done at the older age groups. The world is on birth year, OK let's do this. Unfortunately, those that dominated before no longer do in the age groups. My son is July 04 and went from youngest to right in the middle and has retained first team status even before the switch. I understand the beef for the high school ages being broken up when most of them have been together for several years together and will cause some to quit the sport at a competitive level because now they may not be able to be dominant like they used to or they don't have their buddies. I get it, the dominant players with the later birth months go from oldest to youngest in 1 year. Yes, that would bring anyone down to realize that you no longer dominate your age. 2 years from now we won't have this conversation.
Just so you know, I have 3 girls in soccer, and my "beef" with it has nothing to do with them going from oldest to youngest. That isn't even an argument, all you're doing is switching who the ones are that are bizatching about their kids not having an advantage due to age.
My oldest daughter was caught in the 8th/9th grade disaster of a spring season due to being on the 8th grade side. We wound up playing 4 total games this spring, none of which were competitive. On top of that, she also had to jump from U13 to U15, losing a full year of developmental soccer (over her soccer career). Vote: Thumbs down
My middle child was already playing "up" on an elite team so going from playing girls a 1 1/2 years older to her actually being within her birth year was an advantage, but to her (and us parents) she lost some of her friends and teammates that where in her grade. She would much rather have stayed with her school mates and friends she had been playing along side for 3 years. Vote: Thumbs down
Finally, my youngest is just joining U9 Academy this year, and instead of getting to be with her classmates or even hoping to coax/persuade some of them to come play soccer with her, she will unfortunately have a divided team with kids she won't share as much in common with. Vote: Thumbs down
Ultimately, if US Soccer would have listened to a majority of coaches (Club, College, or H.S.), or parents, or children, this would never have happened. Instead, they made a quick, but hugely impactful change to youth soccer and then barricaded the door, put their hands over their ears and started chanting "la,la,la,la,la,... parents are dumb, la,la,la,la,la,... parents shouldn't have a say, la,la,la,la,la,... clubs don't matter, la,la,la,la,la,... what matters for youth soccer is the less than 1% that play international, la,la,la,la,la,..."
Every time this thread gets a new post I read the title as "A year in --- the age group mistake". So I guess that tells you how I feel.
If they had grandfathered in existing select players (not doing so created serious chaos for many smaller clubs), the whole thing would be a lesser problem. But it still has negative impact in 3 main areas:
young children (just starting out) don't get to play with their classmates, reducing the "community" feeling that draws and holds many players to youth sports
it eliminates the "double hump" we used to have of having two cutoff dates (one for academy+select and such, the other for DA+ODP) meaning that there was a place for more kids to be the oldest and excel (which is, as we know, the #1 way to excel in youth soccer)
the whole 8th/12th grade problem of making it so that late birthday kids may not have a team to play on in those grades
Overall, almost zero benefit for much cost. End grade: D-
You are being to generous with the D-.
This was, is, and will be an utter "fail" for youth soccer. Your first point is the most unforgivable in my eyes... followed very closely by the third one.
What's just as maddening to me is that they (US Soccer) wouldn't even listen to the resounding, almost deafening cries from the majority of it's members. It has been with great disgust that we have eat their **** sandwich with a smile and accept that they don't care in the least about the 99% of kids that just want to play soccer with friends (in their same grade) and without having to possibly miss seasons like they do in the 8th/12th grades.
Grade: F - (wish there was something lower than that)
Didn't the u17 UFA Milton team all come over from NASA this year? Wanted to stay together and NASA wouldn't let them because of the age mandate? Definitely impressive to win that many championships, even if you don't count that one.
For this particular age group the final was UFA Milton vs UFA Forsyth... So UFA representing both teams in the final is impressive as well.
Also impressive is the fact that the Milton team wanted to stay together (after the age mandate) so that means some of the their team is playing up and they still won the cup.
Shouldn't parents be allowed to comparison shop all year long?
Shouldn't kids be able to talk with other coaches without seeing the coach look around to see if anyone is looking and evesdropping?
Not to mention this moronic rule that every club has to hold tryouts on the same 3 days! An of course, all of the clubs say in some form " you are expected attend all 3 days" ... with whatever club you registered for.
I think the DA will be at Fowler or pinckneyville. Again not sure. What birth year? You may want to see who has ECNL
I'm not really looking for DA... too many restrictions, just wanted to know if anyone had insight as to whether they think Milton will be large enough to support top level Academy soccer (U9-U12), not DA. ... and whether or not they will have a large amount of kids that were having to go to Forysth that will now take advantage of the Milton proximity.
Today is the official day for reaching out to other clubs and initiating contact. Anyone making moves? Where to and if possible why? Pros n Con?
Thanks for the thread.... I actually do want to see if anyone has any knowledge of UFA - Milton.
I know UFA-Milton is a relatively new location to the UFA, but I was curious if any of you have any insight into where you see it heading? Are there any current UFA-Forsyth players or parents considering the move to this newer branch? I've heard that UFA-Forsyth is a little over crowded as it is, and that there were quite a few players from the Milton area playing there, so this could make some since to go where it is less crowded and more convenient, no?
Although we are not one of those that live in Milton it would be the closest UFA location to us and we are considering making the move. My concern is that it won't be built up to have a deep enough talent pool for Academy players. As to why we a considering the move, we are from a smaller club and the level of play (once you hit 11 v11 teams) will start to differentiate greatly for the top of the roster to the bottom. I could be wrong, but I'm worried that may stunt our daughters growth because you can only practice/play as a good as the weaker players on the team... but if UFA-Milton is not going to grow in time for a move over there, then is it really worth it?
Any insight would be appreciated!!
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pcfcacademy: Peachtree Corners Football Club, located at Joins Bridge Park near Norcross is looking for additional U10 and U11 players who want to experience academy play and do not have a home for the Spring Season. contact [email protected]
Feb 8, 2017 13:50:07 GMT -5
nsabelles: TRYOUTS: Northwest Soccer Academy "belles" and "Hammers" (Dalton). May 30th and June 6th GIRLS 12-under (2006) and 11-under (2007) 630pm-800pm at Dalton HS. June 6th and June 8th GIRLS and BOYS 14-under (2004) 630pm-800pm at Dalton HS. Call 706-280-1990.
May 1, 2017 23:33:49 GMT -5
blackandblue: Looking for few 2005 u13 Athena c/d girls to complete a team. Go to steamersfc.com for contact information.
Jun 19, 2017 10:32:25 GMT -5
soccerdad11: if we have committed to a club and has been accepted to another club will they let us transfer?
Jun 27, 2017 10:46:37 GMT -5
prekiwasnogood: Have you signed and paid registration soccerdad11?
Jun 27, 2017 13:05:25 GMT -5
soccerdad11: yes signed and paid
Jun 28, 2017 10:49:17 GMT -5
SoccerMom: you can transfer but you won't get a refund
Jun 28, 2017 14:54:14 GMT -5
soccerdad11: thanks - i am ok with no refund i just dont want to be told they will not let us transfer
Jun 29, 2017 10:37:14 GMT -5
SoccerMom: as long as you are paid in full, they have to let you transfer. If they don't you go to Georgia Soccer and they will do transfer
Jul 5, 2017 8:53:19 GMT -5
reinalocura: Most clubs will let you transfer if you pay in full. Some are not willing to do so. It depends upon the club. Alas.
Jul 6, 2017 23:20:53 GMT -5
m22: Can teams play on both NPL and SRPL during the same season?
Sept 19, 2017 12:06:37 GMT -5
Soccerhouse: to post a tweet in a post -- its as simple as over, just cut n paste the twitter link in the body of the post
Oct 3, 2017 12:36:21 GMT -5
zizou: US Men's program has done following since 2011: Missed 2 Olympics, missed U17 World Cup, missed U20 World Cup, missed 2018 Senior World Cup. Is this trajectory USSF is looking for? Don't worry, DA only been going 10 yrs. Just give it more time.
Oct 10, 2017 23:22:01 GMT -5
Soccerhouse: Mens program is in great shape, right where we want to be. Nothing needs to change. Missing world cups, and olympics etc.......
Oct 13, 2017 8:53:03 GMT -5
teenie: I think its become an elitist sport in the USA not for kids with one parent there are so many potentially young under 12 great players at the rec level with no money or parents to take them on these expensive and time consuming club trips
Oct 30, 2017 11:17:43 GMT -5
GAME OVER @ 14 yrs old. : US values: arrogance, showy skills no game sense,height. Favorites in small national pool(picked young) Every kid is finished at 14. Developers die on vine, brains,hustle,game sense and grit need not apply. You must leave US, or game over at 14.
Nov 8, 2017 10:43:33 GMT -5