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Post by fanatic21 on Sept 27, 2019 16:20:28 GMT -5
I was reading through the Referee Behavior thread a bit and wanted to start a new thread in response to some of the comments. First of all, I will admit, that I don't know any of the people/parents who posted on that thread (in fact I don't know who anyone on this forum is), so I don't know how extensive their knowledge of the rules of the games is, and don't know their level of expertise when it comes to understanding the applications of these laws. What I will say; however, is that I've seen a lot of unjust criticism of referees throughout the years, and would argue that on the whole, most referees understand the laws of the game and their application better than most parents.
One thing I think many too parents don't understand (including parents on my own kids' team) is that in order to make an informed judgement on offside if you absolutely must be in line with the 2nd to last defender and be paying attention to the 2nd to last defenders positioning and any potentially offside attackers' positions at the time the ball was played (instead of watching the ball/play). One poster in the the Referee Behavior thread mentioned that a bad offside call, where the player was one yard onside, significantly affected the outcome of a game. In order to make this judgement, that the offside call was bad, the parent would have had to be right in line with the 2nd to last defender at the time this happened and be watching the offside line at the time the ball was played, not the play (where the ball was). Almost all parents (and coaches) spend the game watching the play/ball, not the offside line. By the time someone who is watching the play turns to look at the offside situation, it could have changed significantly, definitely by more than one yard.
I am in no way saying that there are not incompetent referees working games and making a mess of them. I've just seen many more uneducated parents (in terms of rules and interpretations) throughout the years than I have referees. I also think many time parents' bias colors their interpretation of referees and their calls.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Sept 27, 2019 16:41:50 GMT -5
Your statement has many truths in it, however there are a lot of referees that don't really get the rules and MANY MANY MANY ARs that are not, in fact, in line with the second to last defender and completely do not see defenders on the opposite side of the field.
Recently I made a statement regarding an offsides call that affected our game. These same AR's stated that it WAS POSSIBLE to be offsides on a throw in. I rest my case.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 27, 2019 18:35:44 GMT -5
Yeah, the offside havent affected our games, but you can be pretty sure one set of parents is in perfect position to see/make the call every time it's called. Whether they understand the law completely is a different story.
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Post by georgiasoccerdad on Sept 27, 2019 19:49:46 GMT -5
I started the other string mainly because I wanted to comment on positive and negative aspects of how a ref acts on the field. My idea for the thread came after a game where my daughter to the ground while outside the box. She, as captain, reminded the ref it was the girls' third foul of the first half. The ref simply responded with something like "I don't need your reminder." No caution to the girl who then went on to commit another foul in the second half that nearly led to a bigger issue.
My point is the refs need to listen to the players or simply not respond. The best refs for our games have taken ten seconds to explain the call they made (whether right or wrong). I even went to a ref after a match and complimented him because I could see our girls reacting to his feedback in a positive manner.
Bad calls are part of the game, but no call on flagrant or repeated foul is another subject.
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Post by fanatic21 on Sept 27, 2019 20:56:10 GMT -5
Your statement has many truths in it, however there are a lot of referees that don't really get the rules and MANY MANY MANY ARs that are not, in fact, in line with the second to last defender and completely do not see defenders on the opposite side of the field. Recently I made a statement regarding an offsides call that affected our game. These same AR's stated that it WAS POSSIBLE to be offsides on a throw in. I rest my case. Well, I'm not the judge in this case, but if I was, regardless of the referee's lack of understanding when it comes to throw-ins and offside, if you weren't even with the 2nd to last defender and watching the offside line instead of the play (and let's be honest, parents watch the play 99% of the time), I'd rule in favor of the ref - because innocent until proven guilty, and unless you met these criteria, you definitely couldn't prove him guilty from your vantage point. |
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Post by fanatic21 on Sept 27, 2019 21:04:15 GMT -5
I started the other string mainly because I wanted to comment on positive and negative aspects of how a ref acts on the field. My idea for the thread came after a game where my daughter to the ground while outside the box. She, as captain, reminded the ref it was the girls' third foul of the first half. The ref simply responded with something like "I don't need your reminder." No caution to the girl who then went on to commit another foul in the second half that nearly led to a bigger issue. My point is the refs need to listen to the players or simply not respond. The best refs for our games have taken ten seconds to explain the call they made (whether right or wrong). I even went to a ref after a match and complimented him because I could see our girls reacting to his feedback in a positive manner. Bad calls are part of the game, but no call on flagrant or repeated foul is another subject. I agree with you. Unfortunately there are a lot of refs who don't know how to listen. Some of this is their fault and some of it is the culture. I don't have an issue with coaches and players disagreeing with a ref once in a while and/or asking him to watch something - if it's done respectfully - unfortunately I think too often refs have received so much disrespect from coaches, players, and parents that as a result, they take any and all comments, even if they are meant to be respectful, as attacks. My intention in starting this thread was definitely not to defend all refs or say that any of the comments in the Ref Behavior were wrong - I'm sure I wasn't at any of the games referenced, it was simply to share my observations - that parents are often wrong, biased, etc. as well. |
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Post by rocko1989 on Sept 28, 2019 7:02:00 GMT -5
Yeah, the offside havent affected our games, but you can be pretty sure one set of parents is in perfect position to see/make the call every time it's called. Whether they understand the law completely is a different story. While true on the positioning, looking in the right place at the right time when the ball is last played by an attacker takes a lot of discipline. Most coaches/parents are looking at the ball. Most coaches/players are not looking at the positioning of the defenders. Some (unfortunately) ARs are not in the correct position or are not looking at the position of defenders at the right time. I have been a ref a very long time. At this point, I have pretty much heard it all from coaches/parents during games. I have been in absolutely perfect position, and been told by some parent 60 yards down the line that I need to get in position, and remember that we judge offside at the moment the ball is last played by an attacker. Yes, I know that. I have also been wrong. I have missed some. I have been "that guy" working my 5th game in a day because the assigner is desperate to find a warm body to fill a slot because somebody failed to show up. It is not OK that I have missed some over the years, unfortunately it is simply the truth. As a ref, when my kids play, what I hope to see from refs working our games, is officials working hard. If they are trying hard, I can personally deal with a missed call or two. It happens. What I have a difficult time with is seeing refs failing to try very hard. Failing to work hard in a match is not excusable. Just one perspective. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Sept 28, 2019 7:14:32 GMT -5
Your statement has many truths in it, however there are a lot of referees that don't really get the rules and MANY MANY MANY ARs that are not, in fact, in line with the second to last defender and completely do not see defenders on the opposite side of the field. Recently I made a statement regarding an offsides call that affected our game. These same AR's stated that it WAS POSSIBLE to be offsides on a throw in. I rest my case. Well, I'm not the judge in this case, but if I was, regardless of the referee's lack of understanding when it comes to throw-ins and offside, if you weren't even with the 2nd to last defender and watching the offside line instead of the play (and let's be honest, parents watch the play 99% of the time), I'd rule in favor of the ref - because innocent until proven guilty, and unless you met these criteria, you definitely couldn't prove him guilty from your vantage point. I won't question an offsides call if it is close because it is a hard call to make. It is only the egregious errors that piss me off. Many parents are in line with the second to last defender because they are lining the sideline. Most of the parents I know are very well versed in the rules and understand how to call the game. My kid is a ref and I am respectful towards most refs but there are some times where they make huge mistakes. Really when there is a defender on the other side of the field that is keeping everyone onside because they are 3 or 4 yards behind the line and the offensive player and the ref doesn't see them that is very frustrating. Like I said in another post I know it can be confusing because of parents, other games and other players warming up on the sidelines, but it is still hard to swallow when there are these types of errors. As an aside...my younger child has had refs who don't even know (more that don't know than that do know) that the build out line is the offsides line for 7v7. They are also never in line with the second to last defender. I understand the need to be more understanding and give people a break, but refs have a responsibility to know the rules and to apply them fairly and correctly. There are way too many refs that do not know what they are doing. They are ways too many refs that do not protect the children. There are way too many refs that cannot seem to get control of an escalating situation. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 28, 2019 8:16:07 GMT -5
Yeah, the offside havent affected our games, but you can be pretty sure one set of parents is in perfect position to see/make the call every time it's called. Whether they understand the law completely is a different story. While true on the positioning, looking in the right place at the right time when the ball is last played by an attacker takes a lot of discipline. Most coaches/parents are looking at the ball. Most coaches/players are not looking at the positioning of the defenders. Some (unfortunately) ARs are not in the correct position or are not looking at the position of defenders at the right time. I have been a ref a very long time. At this point, I have pretty much heard it all from coaches/parents during games. I have been in absolutely perfect position, and been told by some parent 60 yards down the line that I need to get in position, and remember that we judge offside at the moment the ball is last played by an attacker. Yes, I know that. I have also been wrong. I have missed some. I have been "that guy" working my 5th game in a day because the assigner is desperate to find a warm body to fill a slot because somebody failed to show up. It is not OK that I have missed some over the years, unfortunately it is simply the truth. As a ref, when my kids play, what I hope to see from refs working our games, is officials working hard. If they are trying hard, I can personally deal with a missed call or two. It happens. What I have a difficult time with is seeing refs failing to try very hard. Failing to work hard in a match is not excusable. Just one perspective. Yes, and borderline plays/calls happen all the time. If they're generally correct and evenly distributed, no problem. Its when it becomes a pattern that it's a problem and bias appears more likely. ...Which it was at our game at Fowler. Our girls won 3-0, so it didn't affect the bottom line, but still, there were 2 very poor offside calls in the 2nd half. I've seen a girl on our team take the ball from our half on a breakaway at speed and be called offside half way into the opponent's half. Literally dribbled into an offside position. Sometimes players are simply that fast and the AR's don't realize what they saw. |
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Post by 4theloveofsoccer on Sept 28, 2019 20:15:50 GMT -5
I wish some of us parents outside the lines would just cheer and encourage what is all going on inside the lines. Us parents IMO are too invested living through our little ones by yelling at the referees and AR's, while coaching on the sidelines thinking we know it all. Some parents are obnoxious that they don't realize their behavior is doing more harm to the game than good, even though they think they have good intentions. Yes, my two little ones teams have a handful of those parents just like every other team.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Sept 28, 2019 20:22:50 GMT -5
I wish some of us parents outside the lines would just cheer and encourage what is all going on inside the lines. Us parents IMO are too invested living through our little ones by yelling at the referees and AR's, while coaching on the sidelines thinking we know it all. Some parents are obnoxious that they don't realize their behavior is doing more harm to the game than good, even though they think they have good intentions. Yes, my two little ones teams have a handful of those parents just like every other team. I agree with you, but I will also say that most fans are like that for their favorite college or pro team as well (regardless of sport). If you aren't as invested in your kids' games as you are for your favorite sports team then I don't know what to say. Granted people should try to be their most classy behavior for their kids...but they should try to be that way ALL of the time. |
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Post by rifle on Sept 30, 2019 20:13:00 GMT -5
I started reffing fall 2017 after being a fan of the game for most of my 48 years. (And a player for quite a bit of that same time - youth, travel, HS, adult co-Ed, open, indoor, futsal, all that - I love this game). The adjustment from player/fan to referee was and remains hard. I’m on the fence whether it’s worth it to continue but I like getting the exercise.. and I love the game. Being involved and connected with soccer is why I do it. I like the camaraderie too. I don’t like the referees who show up and don’t give it enough effort. It is getting somewhat easier with experience.
I messed up an offside call on Saturday. I was AR1 - it was a U17 boys select game - my highest level game to date. Flagged a player who didn’t end up getting to the ball first. He was heading straight for the GK and I will not stand there like a statue when an offside player is about to smash into a GK. The center waved off my signal (which was about as popular as you can imagine, with half the fans) but I felt bad anyway because the offside player’s (onside) teammate ran past him and took a shot while I stood there with my flag up. This all took place within about five yards and literally only about one second... It’s not easy.
Later in the same game I flagged a kid offside who was two steps off when the ball was played. He was certain that he held his run. I was in perfect position and the defense was aggressively trapping. He was still pissed, certain that I screwed him over. So much fun!
Later in the same game a ball ricocheted off a kid’s foot straight into his hand. Hand was not above his head, not in an unnatural position. The ball even went straight to the other team. The CR didn’t call it. The kid’s coach and a bunch of players chirped out the old “c’mon REF!” I had a good rapport going with the coach (told me he is also a referee) so I calmly told the coach during the next substitution break that the 2019 law changes outline the no-call for the handling situation.. exactly.
My $.02 is that it is fair to complain about a ref or AR who isn’t putting in effort to be in position. Or a ref or AR who calls offside on a throw in or goal kick and basic things like that. But bizatching about a call, literally what the referee observed in front of him... is pointless. Save your breath to cool your soup.
Yesterday I took an online recertification class. This is required annually, I believe. It cost $90 and it was supposed to include on-field session but the fed decided after opening the course and taking payments that the field work wasn’t needed this time so they kept the $90 and said “no refunds”. (The new referee online class is $20). Helluva way to retain your current referees, amirite?
The recert included some injury awareness/response stuff (about an hour) and a SafeSport certification (about two hours) plus the actual course which took about 4 hours. I paid US Soccer for the privilege to take a class from 2pm to 9pm. Now I need to buy some additional shirts and stuff, to go with my new black shoes. Thankfully I’m not in it for money.
To wrap this up...
Instead of criticizing every single referee, many of whom will quit before they finish one season because the criticism simply isn’t worth it... Rather than moaning about other referees... you should referee. Every last one of you.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Sept 30, 2019 21:21:19 GMT -5
Rifle, you had an excellent post. I really plan to ref as soon as I have any time. Currently between my own job, which involves some weekends, the two kids playing soccer, the one that can't drive that refs and everything else I just can't swing it. Almost took the course last year but will wait until I can do it more than once per season.
It is very hard to ref...particularly offsides when it is close. Look at the Arsenal Man U today when a goal was called back for offsides initially until VAR overruled it. That situation was tough because the defender was stepping up as the forward was making his run and in real time it looked close. On VAR he was on side by about 2 yards. I just hate the ones where it is so clear that they aren't offsides like when they literally miss the defender on the other side of the field. It is still painful for the kids to have a goal taken away when it is called offsides and isn't.
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Post by rifle on Oct 1, 2019 5:36:17 GMT -5
With VAR and freeze frame video everyone can see that sometimes it’s still very hard to judge offside in real-time. So you most certainly should complain about the 13 (or 43) year old AR who is calling it like they see it. They’re obviously just a homer in a yellow (black, green, blue, red) shirt.
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Post by forsythsd on Oct 10, 2019 8:23:45 GMT -5
It'd be nice if parents would at least keep criticism in line with the level of play. The ref at a 10 year old rec game is probably young and new to reffing. If they're vilified for their inevitable mistakes, then they will quit. My kid once had a "Dad coach" get really upset over a throw-in call at a 5v5 8 year old game. Yeah, maybe he awarded the throw-in to the wrong team, but seriously?
Making a young new ref feel like crap does no good. The only way they'll get better is if they keep reffing.
But sure, by the time they're 20 and reffing a high school game or a DA game, feel free to have at them. Go crazy if you need to. Because by that time they're not only MUCH better refs, they're also no longer intimidated by abusive parents. They're happy to toss you, and that's always entertaining for the rest of us.
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