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Post by soccernotfootball on Dec 17, 2019 8:39:14 GMT -5
Your graphic confirms what I've said. Where's Classic V and Athena E? They've gone away because, with the introduction of GPL, everyone has moved up one classification level. I'm all for the state doing something different. And I'm one of the forumites who also think our youth soccer is too fractured. With all the different leagues, top talent levels are diluted and a lot of top players will never face each other in competition. But still, it is what it is. If there was no GPL, that would be Classic 1 / Ath-A.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Dec 17, 2019 10:47:06 GMT -5
That's entirely too many levels. Will Georgia soccer start giving patches for GPL? Is that the impetus for this? They saw that kids want Jersey patches?
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Post by atlutd17 on Dec 17, 2019 17:04:59 GMT -5
That's entirely too many levels. Will Georgia soccer start giving patches for GPL? Is that the impetus for this? They saw that kids want Jersey patches? Unless GPL takes less teams, like Piedmont 2 and top CL1 only, and (patches aside) does something else different that other divisions don't have. Maybe will hear specifics soon.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Dec 17, 2019 17:15:49 GMT -5
Wow --- confusing as heck. I always laugh (laugh is probably not the correct word) when thinking about explaining youth soccer to a naive u9 parent. Oh, just sit back and watch them be confused and then more confused and more confused.
as the great Taylor Twellman once said "What are we doing!"
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Post by atlutd17 on Dec 17, 2019 17:27:37 GMT -5
Wow --- confusing as heck. I always laugh (laugh is probably not the correct word) when thinking about explaining youth soccer to a naive u9 parent. Oh, just sit back and watch them be confused and then more confused and more confused. as the great Taylor Twellman once said "What are we doing!" I don't know what TT would do with all the leagues, or, how each factor really got us into this mess in the first place, but, the National League is moving forward with the mergers and consolidating the top teams, while dropping almost half of Piedmont 1 and all of Piedmont 2 for a tougher NL end product. Those dropped teams will need a home and -to their words- want something better and more meaningful than CL1 or SCCL or NPL.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Dec 17, 2019 23:39:23 GMT -5
GPL wont be more meaningful than NPL or SCCL. Lipstick on the Classic 1 pig. It'll be a good league though.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Dec 18, 2019 7:50:11 GMT -5
Wow --- confusing as heck. I always laugh (laugh is probably not the correct word) when thinking about explaining youth soccer to a naive u9 parent. Oh, just sit back and watch them be confused and then more confused and more confused. as the great Taylor Twellman once said "What are we doing!" I don't know what TT would do with all the leagues, or, how each factor really got us into this mess in the first place, but, the National League is moving forward with the mergers and consolidating the top teams, while dropping almost half of Piedmont 1 and all of Piedmont 2 for a tougher NL end product. Those dropped teams will need a home and -to their words- want something better and more meaningful than CL1 or SCCL or NPL. I am not sure why GPL would be more meaningful than CL1. That makes zero sense. GPL is just CL1 renamed.
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Post by footyfan on Dec 18, 2019 7:56:52 GMT -5
GPL wont be more meaningful than NPL or SCCL. Lipstick on the Classic 1 pig. It'll be a good league though. NPL is definitely a cut above. I could see it being like SCCL-1/P but with the pro/rel among leagues
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Post by baller84 on Dec 18, 2019 21:12:07 GMT -5
GPL wont be more meaningful than NPL or SCCL. Lipstick on the Classic 1 pig. It'll be a good league though. NPL is definitely a cut above. I could see it being like SCCL-1/P but with the pro/rel among leagues No way. GPL, SCCL are the same lipstick on the pig for that matter. On the field, academy 08 boys competitive GA Soccer division has teams better than most SCCL future DA teams, but the best will move on to DA/ECNL. In select: NL given the new format definitely above NPL NPL hit or miss but slightly above GPL/SCCL GPL/SCCL def above SCCL-P ... won't find '07 teams from SCCL clubs good enough to hang in GPL, or even CL1 But again, Atlanta United and MLS clubs first, DA/ECNL second are the top destinations, and NL third in some areas.
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Post by baller84 on Dec 18, 2019 22:01:53 GMT -5
GPL wont be more meaningful than NPL or SCCL. Lipstick on the Classic 1 pig. It'll be a good league though. Like NL at a higher level, GPL at a level below will be more meaningful with better parity/competition because of promotion/relegation system lacking in mismatched US Club leagues NPL/SCCL/SCCL-P.
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Post by soccermaxx72 on Dec 18, 2019 22:17:34 GMT -5
GPL wont be more meaningful than NPL or SCCL. Lipstick on the Classic 1 pig. It'll be a good league though. Like NL at a higher level, GPL at a level below will be more meaningful with better parity/competition because of promotion/relegation system lacking in mismatched US Club leagues NPL/SCCL/SCCL-P. Agree with baller, you can argue that NPL might have better competition than GPL but GPL is more meaningful because if you do well you advance to Piedmont Conference, do poorly and drop back to Athena. pro/rel has reward vs penalty. Could you imagine, for example, if this years 2005 Girls GSA ECNL team who finished bottom of the ECNL bracket was relegated to SCCL next year? Instead, no penalty besides missing out on an extra showcase and they will merely try to replace 2-3 girls and start all over again next season. Maybe next time finishing lower middle of pack if lucky.
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Post by soccerdad76 on Dec 18, 2019 23:32:21 GMT -5
NPL is definitely a cut above. I could see it being like SCCL-1/P but with the pro/rel among leagues No way. GPL, SCCL are the same lipstick on the pig for that matter. On the field, academy 08 boys competitive GA Soccer division has teams better than most SCCL future DA teams, but the best will move on to DA/ECNL. In select: NL given the new format definitely above NPL NPL hit or miss but slightly above GPL/SCCL GPL/SCCL def above SCCL-P ... won't find '07 teams from SCCL clubs good enough to hang in GPL, or even CL1 But again, Atlanta United and MLS clubs first, DA/ECNL second are the top destinations, and NL third in some areas. So this year ‘08 Ga soccer teams > ‘08 SCCL teams, and next year ‘08 GA soccer teams > ‘08 DA teams? I’m starting to think you are basing everything off looking up results from that one weekend. IMHO based on what I’ve seen with my eyes over the past several years, the top 8 competitive teams (in no particular order) are non-SCCL Ambush and LSA, then CF Central, UFA Forsyth Premier, GSA North / South, and NASA Marietta / Milton SCCL teams. Add AU as the current SCCL / future DA wild card of course... most of the non-SCCL clubs would have a difficult time hanging with them. So you think this is true (GA > DA) for other ages as well, or next year is 08 going to be an anomaly? After this I’m going to do my best to stay silent on the ‘08 discussion... just having a hard time letting it go.
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Post by kidsocceruber on Dec 19, 2019 8:37:10 GMT -5
While I'm mostly a lurker here the past year and a bite my tongue a lot, what stays consistent through a lot of the posts recently is the thought that the league my child is in the better league, when in reality it depends on the age grouping and the actual kids that are playing. It's like witnessing today's politics, there's very little bipartisan agreement due to personal feelings. I get it though, we all want to feel like our son/daughter is playing in the better league so the argument/slant is going to favor that. Everyone that's proclaiming the GPL teams are better than SCCL teams before they even played one game is just funny to me. The bottom half of the NL teams that get pushed back to GPL were probably a lot of Classic I/Athena A teams that recently got promoted up, so why is the thought that new league is going to be better than SCCL/P teams, because they lost (sometimes badly) to much better teams? The rankings like sinc/youthsoccer try to tell us, but I'm certain that in every age group there are "higher ranked" teams that are in "lower" leagues. Except when you get to the highest level leagues does it even matter? Honestly you can't just blanket say that across from GA Soccer to US Soccer teams in X league are just better than Y league. I know some teams in SCCL-P are better than others in NL in our age group, it all depends on the kids.
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Post by fanatic21 on Dec 19, 2019 9:43:46 GMT -5
While I'm mostly a lurker here the past year and a bite my tongue a lot, what stays consistent through a lot of the posts recently is the thought that the league my child is in the better league, when in reality it depends on the age grouping and the actual kids that are playing. It's like witnessing today's politics, there's very little bipartisan agreement due to personal feelings. I get it though, we all want to feel like our son/daughter is playing in the better league so the argument/slant is going to favor that. Everyone that's proclaiming the GPL teams are better than SCCL teams before they even played one game is just funny to me. The bottom half of the NL teams that get pushed back to GPL were probably a lot of Classic I/Athena A teams that recently got promoted up, so why is the thought that new league is going to be better than SCCL/P teams, because they lost (sometimes badly) to much better teams? The rankings like sinc/youthsoccer try to tell us, but I'm certain that in every age group there are "higher ranked" teams that are in "lower" leagues. Except when you get to the highest level leagues does it even matter? Honestly you can't just blanket say that across from GA Soccer to US Soccer teams in X league are just better than Y league. I know some teams in SCCL-P are better than others in NL in our age group, it all depends on the kids. You are absolutely correct. In today's convoluted GA (Southeast and probably nationwide I guess too) soccer landscape, the ranking of leagues is just about impossible. Depends on gender, age group, top/bottom half of table, etc. I've given my opinion on this forum on the level of leagues a few times, but I've admitted that my opinion is only based on the age groups I know. Once upon a time it wasn't that hard to rank teams because they had to earn their way to the top division. I preferred it that way (even though I do have a daugher who plays in one of the entitlement leagues), but pretty sure that ship has long sailed. I do think a few of the posters who praised GPL and NL overl SCCL and NPL were merely saying the competition there would be more balanced and meaningful because of the potential for pro/rel. I agree with this to a degree. It would be even more meaningful if all the teams were still in the same system/pyramid etc. so that teams that were at comperable levels still played each other in league play. I know pro/rel does have its downsides though - playing to win at all cost instead of focusing on player development, but I would argue that a vast number of coaching in closed leagues simply play to win at all costs too (my daughter's team has played several teams this season who have played with essentially 11 defenders - I guess that would be more like playing to tie at all costs though). Pro/rel definitely has its upsides too though, as it assures that teams of comperable levels are playing in the same league (at least better than closed leagues do).
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Post by soccernotfootball on Dec 19, 2019 11:11:26 GMT -5
Would the same people saying GPL is better than (insert Alphabet league here) say Classic 1 or Ath-A is better than that Alphabet league? Because that is what they are saying. Georgia Soccer eliminated the bottom divisions, moved everyone up one, and renamed the former 1 / A division.
Add to that... ~almost~ every player that can make a top team at one of the Big™ clubs leaves the smaller clubs in Georgia Soccer if the family is willing to drive.
Whether you chalk it up to recruiting or merely a player's own ambition, they go to the Big™ clubs because they do have the Alphabet leagues to offer. And they go to those leagues because the general perception/consensus is that they are better (probably because those top players are congregating there by choice).
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Post by atlfutboldad on Dec 19, 2019 12:19:11 GMT -5
The best teams are the ones with the best players (and coaches), doesn't matter what league they play in (especially at U12!!!!). So the perception around town of who the best teams are is everything (for recruiting). MOST of the best players (who can afford it) will fill out the DA teams, then ECNL, then below that will have to choose between NPL, NL or SCCL. WHY? PERCEPTION and EXPOSURE. The best players are not typically going to pick Classic 1/Athena A or now GPL if there is a spot for them on one of the other 5 options and they can 1-make the team, 2-afford the team and 3-make the drive. Its a gamble if you're a top player to do a year or two in the top USYS state league, your team MAY NEVER make NL, and never get that exposure (a good reason to consider ODP). However, if you make a DA/ECNL roster you're ALREADY THERE, just by virtue of your talent and skill level (advancement as an individual rather than with a team). GPL will be a bit above SCCL-P. SCCL-P and Athena A/Classic 1 will be similar level draw IMO, but I think some things will have to be tweaked in SCCL-P to retain players going forward (no advancement, no real reward...mainly on the Carolina side of the border). Even MEDALS would be a good start. I like GPL as a marketing gimmick assuming they get patches (I think all Athena/Classic teams should get GA Soccer patches, sort of like a participation ribbon). Then it will be less disappointing as a fall from NL Piedmont and more of a reward for being the top state league. Other than that, its really NO DIFFERENT than A/1 teams from this fall. IMO Promotion/Relegation to/from this league needs to be fairly aggressive (drop the bottom 3-4 teams every season, no reward for low level mediocrity). IMO talking about 08's right now DOESN'T FREAKING MATTER, because that is a year PRE-ECNL, a year PRE-NL and 2 years PRE-DA age group (on the girls side, 1 year on the boys). In 2 years, many of the best kids from the ATL area will have migrated to the clubs with teams 2 top level leagues and n 5 years, ALMOST ALL of them (who are not at KSA/PPA) will have (that's how its been for the past 10 years, that's how its going to continue). Assuming they want to play in college and are looking for the exposure that those leagues provide. IMO a good example is who won 2006 Athena A this fall and who has a few teams in NL...Columbus FC. If they were closer to ATL they likely would have lose a few girls to ECNL/DA clubs. I know 2-3 girls from that team drive to ATL for ODP. Below the DA/ECNL/NPL/SCCL clubs, on the girls side its now pretty consistent now who has teams in the NL across the board...IAFC, Ambush, Impact, CFC Red Star, Rush, and Roswell. On the girls side, most of the top 20 teams in the state ALMOST INVARIABLY come NTH (2-3), UFA (2-3), SSA (2), CF (2), GSA, AFU, AFC, IAFC, Roswell, CFC Red Star, Impact, Ambush, and Rush...and most of these teams play outside USYS. There's a few stragglers outside this bunch that may have a team jump up and excel (LSA, Henry County/AFUS, MOBA, etc), but these clubs are the best in the state, and being a member of GPL doesn't really bare this out.
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Post by atlutd17 on Dec 19, 2019 15:49:49 GMT -5
It's all opinions everyone is entitled to. Some of those opinions convert to facts depending on certain age groups and genders. No one disputes Atlanta United being the destination club, and DA the destination league. Let's add ECNL to the list, although some will argue NL should be added after the announced changes. We must realize that all these special players good enough to make it, are the minority in the grand scheme of things, and -given the choice- not consider SAPL/SCCL/GPL etc etc over the above leagues. The real debate and confusion starts at the level below as far as the Georgia soccer scene goes, and -let's be realistic- the majority of the select players including those late bloomers are not ready for AU or DA, and may never be ... Many of these players though are still talented, athletic, motivated, but need to work on some things (reason they didn't make it in the first place). So that next step for them is hugely important, especially in ages 12-16 to be with the right coach for them, the right team for them, the right competition for them, in order to develop their strengths and improve their weaknesses to be able to make the jump they dream of in the future. Let's take competition: The fundamental (but not only) difference between USYS and US Club Leagues in GA, is the promotion/relegation factor. Some love it, some prefer other perks, others don't care for it. There are some great posts already in this thread outlining the trade offs of a promotion/relegation system or its lack of, and at the end of the day it comes down to how much the quality of competition gets affected by the promotion/relegation process, or its lack of. Beyond that, could be other differences. For example it would be super nice for leagues to communicate through social media or newsletters with their customers (players/parents), and lay out what programs or opportunities they can offer to develop the league's players individually, showcase them through their teams, and certainly improve the quality of the coaches through coaching education either directly or indirectly.
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Post by soccernotfootball on Dec 19, 2019 16:43:59 GMT -5
It's all opinions everyone is entitled to. Some of those opinions convert to facts depending on certain age groups and genders. No one disputes Atlanta United being the destination club, and DA the destination league. Let's add ECNL to the list, although some will argue NL should be added after the announced changes. We must realize that all these special players good enough to make it, are the minority in the grand scheme of things, and -given the choice- not consider SAPL/SCCL/GPL etc etc over the above leagues. The real debate and confusion starts at the level below as far as the Georgia soccer scene goes, and -let's be realistic- the majority of the select players including those late bloomers are not ready for AU or DA, and may never be ... Many of these players though are still talented, athletic, motivated, but need to work on some things (reason they didn't make it in the first place). So that next step for them is hugely important, especially in ages 12-16 to be with the right coach for them, the right team for them, the right competition for them, in order to develop their strengths and improve their weaknesses to be able to make the jump they dream of in the future. Let's take competition: The fundamental (but not only) difference between USYS and US Club Leagues in GA, is the promotion/relegation factor. Some love it, some prefer other perks, others don't care for it. There are some great posts already in this thread outlining the trade offs of a promotion/relegation system or its lack of, and at the end of the day it comes down to how much the quality of competition gets affected by the promotion/relegation process, or its lack of. Beyond that, could be other differences. For example it would be super nice for leagues to communicate through social media or newsletters with their customers (players/parents), and lay out what programs or opportunities they can offer to develop the league's players individually, showcase them through their teams, and certainly improve the quality of the coaches through coaching education either directly or indirectly. I agree with most of your post. The only thing I would say is, I personally don't understand the parent infatuation with pro/rel. As a fan - I get it. For pro teams, it makes since. But for youth soccer, pro/rel is a little ridiculous. First, these kids develop at different rates. Second, I would venture to say most kids aren't with the same team - or if the same team - with the same kids/players from 12 to 18. As a soccer parent and consumer - I'm not deciding on where my kid may play based on pro/rel and IMO, most parents don't include that in the factors of where they look for their kids best options. Top coaches, top competition, top player pool, top opportunities - all come into play. Pro/rel is a non-factor. I would also add - as an aside - that pro/rel in youth soccer, in theory, could lead to less development. Because a coach would need to appease players and parents by moving up, it would become all about winning at any cost.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Dec 19, 2019 16:54:28 GMT -5
Its generally a non-factor I agree, unless you feel there is a strong chance that a near-by USYS state team could be promoted after a really strong year including your Billy/Sue and then they would be in a destination league (NL). If most of the destination clubs in the elite leagues are too far away, and Billy/Sue can't make the nearby elite teams and you think that Billy/Sue is better than SCCL (or that's too distant), you might be willing to take the gamble on an A/I/GPL team for the chance at NL within 2 years. If the USYS state team doesn't make it in 2 years, perhaps a move to a team already in an elite league is in order.
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Post by baller84 on Dec 19, 2019 17:45:53 GMT -5
It's all opinions everyone is entitled to. Some of those opinions convert to facts depending on certain age groups and genders. No one disputes Atlanta United being the destination club, and DA the destination league. Let's add ECNL to the list, although some will argue NL should be added after the announced changes. We must realize that all these special players good enough to make it, are the minority in the grand scheme of things, and -given the choice- not consider SAPL/SCCL/GPL etc etc over the above leagues. The real debate and confusion starts at the level below as far as the Georgia soccer scene goes, and -let's be realistic- the majority of the select players including those late bloomers are not ready for AU or DA, and may never be ... Many of these players though are still talented, athletic, motivated, but need to work on some things (reason they didn't make it in the first place). So that next step for them is hugely important, especially in ages 12-16 to be with the right coach for them, the right team for them, the right competition for them, in order to develop their strengths and improve their weaknesses to be able to make the jump they dream of in the future. Let's take competition: The fundamental (but not only) difference between USYS and US Club Leagues in GA, is the promotion/relegation factor. Some love it, some prefer other perks, others don't care for it. There are some great posts already in this thread outlining the trade offs of a promotion/relegation system or its lack of, and at the end of the day it comes down to how much the quality of competition gets affected by the promotion/relegation process, or its lack of. Beyond that, could be other differences. For example it would be super nice for leagues to communicate through social media or newsletters with their customers (players/parents), and lay out what programs or opportunities they can offer to develop the league's players individually, showcase them through their teams, and certainly improve the quality of the coaches through coaching education either directly or indirectly. I agree with most of your post. The only thing I would say is, I personally don't understand the parent infatuation with pro/rel. As a fan - I get it. For pro teams, it makes since. But for youth soccer, pro/rel is a little ridiculous. First, these kids develop at different rates. Second, I would venture to say most kids aren't with the same team - or if the same team - with the same kids/players from 12 to 18. As a soccer parent and consumer - I'm not deciding on where my kid may play based on pro/rel and IMO, most parents don't include that in the factors of where they look for their kids best options. Top coaches, top competition, top player pool, top opportunities - all come into play. Pro/rel is a non-factor. I would also add - as an aside - that pro/rel in youth soccer, in theory, could lead to less development. Because a coach would need to appease players and parents by moving up, it would become all about winning at any cost. Tell that to Carolina FC killing everyone in SCCL-P. How is the lack of promotion helping the development of those players? Also same problem the other way for teams getting killed weekly. Mismatched teams by design. Using this example to avoid naming local teams on same boat.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Dec 19, 2019 20:13:49 GMT -5
I agree with most of your post. The only thing I would say is, I personally don't understand the parent infatuation with pro/rel. As a fan - I get it. For pro teams, it makes since. But for youth soccer, pro/rel is a little ridiculous. First, these kids develop at different rates. Second, I would venture to say most kids aren't with the same team - or if the same team - with the same kids/players from 12 to 18. As a soccer parent and consumer - I'm not deciding on where my kid may play based on pro/rel and IMO, most parents don't include that in the factors of where they look for their kids best options. Top coaches, top competition, top player pool, top opportunities - all come into play. Pro/rel is a non-factor. I would also add - as an aside - that pro/rel in youth soccer, in theory, could lead to less development. Because a coach would need to appease players and parents by moving up, it would become all about winning at any cost. Tell that to Carolina FC killing everyone in SCCL-P. How is the lack of promotion helping the development of those players? Also same problem the other way for teams getting killed weekly. Mismatched teams by design. Using this example to avoid naming local teams on same boat. The club centric leagues only work well in populated areas with large clubs with multiple teams. SCCL-P is 3rd or 4th teams for many clubs. It should not be a surprise that an occasional top or 2nd team in that league could dominate.
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Post by oldcoach on Dec 19, 2019 23:23:49 GMT -5
Tell that to Carolina FC killing everyone in SCCL-P. How is the lack of promotion helping the development of those players? Also same problem the other way for teams getting killed weekly. Mismatched teams by design. Using this example to avoid naming local teams on same boat. The club centric leagues only work well in populated areas with large clubs with multiple teams. SCCL-P is 3rd or 4th teams for many clubs. It should not be a surprise that an occasional top or 2nd team in that league could dominate. I don’t see where Carolina FC is killing everyone in SCCL-P? They are in first place in 1 boys age group and 1 girls age group. In my kids age group they are currently tied for 11th out of 12. At least on the girls side with the exception of 1 age group their results are similar.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Dec 20, 2019 7:24:49 GMT -5
The club centric leagues only work well in populated areas with large clubs with multiple teams. SCCL-P is 3rd or 4th teams for many clubs. It should not be a surprise that an occasional top or 2nd team in that league could dominate. I don’t see where Carolina FC is killing everyone in SCCL-P? They are in first place in 1 boys age group and 1 girls age group. In my kids age group they are currently tied for 11th out of 12. At least on the girls side with the exception of 1 age group their results are similar. I did not imply that they were killing everyone, though baller84 did. What I heard was only 1 age group which is why I said an occasional team could dominate. The way I look at it is similar to local smaller clubs used to be in Athena before SCCL and SCCL-P and UFA and SSA going all in with NPL. Sometimes there is a team that is strong in a certain age group, but surrounding age groups are weak. That team would not be served well in SCCL-P, but the rest of that club's teams would be fine there. Big clubs often have 3rd teams and 4th teams of similar skill levels so SCCL-P works great for them.
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Post by soccernotfootball on Dec 20, 2019 10:04:05 GMT -5
Tell that to Carolina FC killing everyone in SCCL-P. How is the lack of promotion helping the development of those players? Also same problem the other way for teams getting killed weekly. Mismatched teams by design. Using this example to avoid naming local teams on same boat. As others have said, seems only one boys team and one girls team are top of their groups. I'm not sure that would warrant "Carolina FC killing everyone". Also, keep in mind, that seems to be their 1st teams playing against other clubs 3rd, and sometimes, 4th teams. I think those Carolina kids would have to drive 40 minutes to an hour and a half to clubs (one way) for an ECNL or DA team. (If I have their location correct.) If that club told parents that they were entering SCCL and didn't get the facts right - that's a club communication problem, not a league problem. As far as development goes - if they feel like they are in a league that is below them, again, that's a club issue.
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