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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 25, 2024 9:04:40 GMT -5
Can we talk about how horrible some of the officiating is in the GHSA playoffs (hell High School soccer in general?) It is the one reason I will never certify to referee High School. I may be good at refereeing, but I don't want to get stuck with a subpar crew like that was at the Northgate vs. Tucker game last night, so I will never certify for High School and will continue to only do Club refereeing.
Center was all over the place with bad calls on both sides but most went against Northgate when it mattered. The biggest one handed Tucker the game. It was so blatant that if I can obtain video of the game or just that one sequence, I'm likely submitting it to David Gerson (refs need love too guy) for his analysis, GHSA, and the people that certify High School referees. As a referee I try not to make a mistake that changes the outcome of a game and most of the time I succeed at that. This guy gave the game to Tucker.
So the play in question was in the first OT period. It was a 1-1 tie at that point. Tucker pretty much was playing nothing but boom ball all night. On one particular boom ball the striker two arm pushed off the defender to gain an advantage and then ran onto the ball where which it was an easy goal at that point. Northgate (like most schools) were playing a high line which had worked all night to keep them offside. Center Referee saw the push off, AR1 saw the push off. Heck the 4th official saw the push off. It was a clear advantage that gave the striker a good 8-10 yard gap once he shoved off the defender who actually lost balance a bit before gaining it back and running after striker. Horrible way to have a game decided by a lack of an easily made call.
Other issues was Tucker insistent tackling and fouling behind the play after the ball was released that the referee only called about 1 out of 20 of those calls. Also Tucker striker tackling Northgate's keeper (which caused an injury to the keeper) after the keeper had possession of the ball. No foul, no yellow card, no nothing. That man has no business refereeing another GHSA soccer game ever in my opinion. I usually don't go hard on other referees (being that I am one as well), but he is exhibit A of why I will never certify to referee high school.
The only thing I can be satisfied about is that the Tucker folks know they didn't earn that win, and also that Cass is going to beat the snot out of them next week.
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Apr 25, 2024 9:25:06 GMT -5
That is such a shame. I agree that the referees are more inconsistent at the high school level than the (higher) club levels.
The biggest mystery to me is how many regular season games use 2 officials, then the playoffs switch to 4. I understand cost control, but it seems like you are going to get two wildly different game flows. I can't imagine officiating with two officials, which is why I will likely never do high school.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 25, 2024 9:33:57 GMT -5
That is such a shame. I agree that the referees are more inconsistent at the high school level than the (higher) club levels. The biggest mystery to me is how many regular season games use 2 officials, then the playoffs switch to 4. I understand cost control, but it seems like you are going to get two wildly different game flows. I can't imagine officiating with two officials, which is why I will likely never do high school. The issue with regular season is more of the fact that there isn't enough of them to go around during that time period because there are more games being played each night. Many schools (I know Northgate does) always request 3 referees but due to availability sometimes only get 2. I would imagine most of the time most schools ask for 3 for at least region games but don't always get them. I think GHSA pretty much mandates 4 once playoffs start. There are also a lot of referees available at that point as well as there are a lot less games going on on the same night for playoffs. If we could flood the High School Referee pool full of good referees to weed out the bad ones I might certify, but until I see an improvement I won't touch it. For the record it isn't just this guy that cost Northgate the game. I've seen pretty bad officiating throughout the season. Luckily most don't affect the outcome of the game bad sadly like in this instance it does, and there is absolutely no recourse for a coach or team in an instance like this. In my opinion all High School games need to be filmed and the accrediting body for referees should review most if not all games especially if there is a controversial game and re-train referees that routinely mess things up. That is the only way you are going to make it better. I doubt that ever happens at the HS level though. |
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Apr 25, 2024 9:46:49 GMT -5
That is such a shame. I agree that the referees are more inconsistent at the high school level than the (higher) club levels. The biggest mystery to me is how many regular season games use 2 officials, then the playoffs switch to 4. I understand cost control, but it seems like you are going to get two wildly different game flows. I can't imagine officiating with two officials, which is why I will likely never do high school. The issue with regular season is more of the fact that there isn't enough of them to go around during that time period because there are more games being played each night. Many schools (I know Northgate does) always request 3 referees but due to availability sometimes only get 2. I would imagine most of the time most schools ask for 3 for at least region games but don't always get them. I think GHSA pretty much mandates 4 once playoffs start. There are also a lot of referees available at that point as well as there are a lot less games going on on the same night for playoffs. If we could flood the High School Referee pool full of good referees to weed out the bad ones I might certify, but until I see an improvement I won't touch it. For the record it isn't just this guy that cost Northgate the game. I've seen pretty bad officiating throughout the season. Luckily most don't affect the outcome of the game bad sadly like in this instance it does, and there is absolutely no recourse for a coach or team in an instance like this. In my opinion all High School games need to be filmed and the accrediting body for referees should review most if not all games especially if there is a controversial game and re-train referees that routinely mess things up. That is the only way you are going to make it better. I doubt that ever happens at the HS level though. Interesting... I assumed it was about cost. It does seem like the private schools I have seen usually have 3 referees, so I thought they had more resources. Hard to imagine that GHSA will sponsor any kind of review. And if they did, I am sure it wouldn't start with soccer. Anyway, agree that we need more good refs. I am sure it's hard to find people that can be free to travel starting at 4/430pm on workdays. |
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 25, 2024 10:01:15 GMT -5
The issue with regular season is more of the fact that there isn't enough of them to go around during that time period because there are more games being played each night. Many schools (I know Northgate does) always request 3 referees but due to availability sometimes only get 2. I would imagine most of the time most schools ask for 3 for at least region games but don't always get them. I think GHSA pretty much mandates 4 once playoffs start. There are also a lot of referees available at that point as well as there are a lot less games going on on the same night for playoffs. If we could flood the High School Referee pool full of good referees to weed out the bad ones I might certify, but until I see an improvement I won't touch it. For the record it isn't just this guy that cost Northgate the game. I've seen pretty bad officiating throughout the season. Luckily most don't affect the outcome of the game bad sadly like in this instance it does, and there is absolutely no recourse for a coach or team in an instance like this. In my opinion all High School games need to be filmed and the accrediting body for referees should review most if not all games especially if there is a controversial game and re-train referees that routinely mess things up. That is the only way you are going to make it better. I doubt that ever happens at the HS level though. Interesting... I assumed it was about cost. It does seem like the private schools I have seen usually have 3 referees, so I thought they had more resources. Hard to imagine that GHSA will sponsor any kind of review. And if they did, I am sure it wouldn't start with soccer. Anyway, agree that we need more good refs. I am sure it's hard to find people that can be free to travel starting at 4/430pm on workdays. My son is going to certify for HS/MS. He will be in college this fall, and I told him it would be easy money for middle/high school games during the week. He is a very good referee. I hope he never sees this, but really he is probably better than me. I know he is better fit than me!  He has had several Referee assignors and assessors on the field tell him he needs to work toward getting his Regional certification as well. So maybe there will be one good one out there at some point soon. |
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Post by soccerlegacy on Apr 25, 2024 11:15:32 GMT -5
I have to agree. The GHSA High Schools referees are some or the poorest I've seen. I've had a couple of my kids playing HS soccer for years now, so I know the incident you described (and others like it) are not rare. I still try to give them the benefit of the doubt before each game but it appears that it usually a 60/40 split (Good to Bad) as to whether you get a competent ref. I've also seen where only having 2 refs has really, really altered games with proper offsides not being called correctly, holding calls, and even a goal or two being disallowed because they don't have the proper angle to see the ball crossed the line. Its an unfortunate circumstance that can impact the game dramatically. I understand the shortage and have been told that some refs just can't get there for early starts, which does make sense in Atlanta traffic.
What's also unique to HS school games is the parents that call a ref out on the horrible calls/non-calls. I know many parents don't act like this at a club game, but in HS they scream and yell at the top of their lungs. I have a theory that it has to do with the proximity of the field. In HS you are so much further away from the immediate sideline and therefore feel more free to say what's on their minds.
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Post by randomparent on Apr 25, 2024 12:03:58 GMT -5
I have to agree. The GHSA High Schools referees are some or the poorest I've seen. I've had a couple of my kids playing HS soccer for years now, so I know the incident you described (and others like it) are not rare. I still try to give them the benefit of the doubt before each game but it appears that it usually a 60/40 split (Good to Bad) as to whether you get a competent ref. I've also seen where only having 2 refs has really, really altered games with proper offsides not being called correctly, holding calls, and even a goal or two being disallowed because they don't have the proper angle to see the ball crossed the line. Its an unfortunate circumstance that can impact the game dramatically. I understand the shortage and have been told that some refs just can't get there for early starts, which does make sense in Atlanta traffic. What's also unique to HS school games is the parents that call a ref out on the horrible calls/non-calls. I know many parents don't act like this at a club game, but in HS they scream and yell at the top of their lungs. I have a theory that it has to do with the proximity of the field. In HS you are so much further away from the immediate sideline and therefore feel more free to say what's on their minds. I have felt this year the refs have been worse than in the past. It is not that mistakes are made, it is just like many of the refs don't realize they are not the main character of the story when making their mistakes. The yelling has always been worse at HS games. I think it is because you do sit off the field, probably less relationship with the coach than normal, and you have more people other than just the parents at the games than a club game. I also feel like this year there are more games where everyone has to sit on the "home" side of the field. Its not new, but it seems like most games I go to now it is like this and its a terrible idea. Having both sets of parents compete for biggest victim each game night is crazy. |
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Post by southernsoccer on Apr 25, 2024 12:18:33 GMT -5
Can we talk about how horrible some of the officiating is in the GHSA playoffs (hell High School soccer in general?) It is the one reason I will never certify to referee High School. I may be good at refereeing, but I don't want to get stuck with a subpar crew like that was at the Northgate vs. Tucker game last night, so I will never certify for High School and will continue to only do Club refereeing. Center was all over the place with bad calls on both sides but most went against Northgate when it mattered. The biggest one handed Tucker the game. It was so blatant that if I can obtain video of the game or just that one sequence, I'm likely submitting it to David Gerson (refs need love too guy) for his analysis, GHSA, and the people that certify High School referees. As a referee I try not to make a mistake that changes the outcome of a game and most of the time I succeed at that. This guy gave the game to Tucker. So the play in question was in the first OT period. It was a 1-1 tie at that point. Tucker pretty much was playing nothing but boom ball all night. On one particular boom ball the striker two arm pushed off the defender to gain an advantage and then ran onto the ball where which it was an easy goal at that point. Northgate (like most schools) were playing a high line which had worked all night to keep them offside. Center Referee saw the push off, AR1 saw the push off. Heck the 4th official saw the push off. It was a clear advantage that gave the striker a good 8-10 yard gap once he shoved off the defender who actually lost balance a bit before gaining it back and running after striker. Horrible way to have a game decided by a lack of an easily made call. Other issues was Tucker insistent tackling and fouling behind the play after the ball was released that the referee only called about 1 out of 20 of those calls. Also Tucker striker tackling Northgate's keeper (which caused an injury to the keeper) after the keeper had possession of the ball. No foul, no yellow card, no nothing. That man has no business refereeing another GHSA soccer game ever in my opinion. I usually don't go hard on other referees (being that I am one as well), but he is exhibit A of why I will never certify to referee high school. The only thing I can be satisfied about is that the Tucker folks know they didn't earn that win, and also that Cass is going to beat the snot out of them next week. That's frustrating. We had the same experience at our playoff game. My heartbreaks for all the seniors. Kick ball is rewarded in high school. I wish refs would force teams to play soccer instead of american football lite. |
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Post by soccerloafer on Apr 25, 2024 13:38:40 GMT -5
Most duals are requested by schools. GSOA fulfills 90+% requests for 3-man crews. Most unfulfilled are result of ref calling out day of game (it happens - illness, injury, work).
The dual system is ok for most JV, but falls apart at Varsity. We're never in the right spot and it's very difficult to affect the game with your personality (consistency of calls, conversations with players on and off the ball, etc.) We hate them as much as everyone else. I tell players it's like the 5v2 drill and we're the 2 in the middle, just trying not to get split every time. Or playing 11 v 8, which is about the right ratio of 3 v 2 refs.
If all of you claiming to never work HS would come work, we'd have more good officials...
Many games are filmed and assessors do watch as many as possible. Assignment changes do result.
4th official in playoffs keeps the admin off the CR and provides another buffer for coaches and bench activity.
Quality of officials is hit or miss, but many good referees. Not all get playoff matches and those assignments are vetted, particularly 2nd round on. I've rarely had an entirely bad crew, usually only one weak link we try to hide. Higher classification games generally get better crews.
Come join us!
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Apr 25, 2024 13:50:28 GMT -5
Most duals are requested by schools. GSOA fulfills 90+% requests for 3-man crews. Most unfulfilled are result of ref calling out day of game (it happens - illness, injury, work). The dual system is ok for most JV, but falls apart at Varsity. We're never in the right spot and it's very difficult to affect the game with your personality (consistency of calls, conversations with players on and off the ball, etc.) We hate them as much as everyone else. I tell players it's like the 5v2 drill and we're the 2 in the middle, just trying not to get split every time. Or playing 11 v 8, which is about the right ratio of 3 v 2 refs. If all of you claiming to never work HS would come work, we'd have more good officials... Many games are filmed and assessors do watch as many as possible. Assignment changes do result. 4th official in playoffs keeps the admin off the CR and provides another buffer for coaches and bench activity. Quality of officials is hit or miss, but many good referees. Not all get playoff matches and those assignments are vetted, particularly 2nd round on. I've rarely had an entirely bad crew, usually only one weak link we try to hide. Higher classification games generally get better crews. Come join us! Great to know about the 2-man squads. Reading this, I feel like I should add that I have seen some very good refs on HS fields this season as well. Of course, it's only the bad ones that people remember (and post about)! |
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 25, 2024 13:56:50 GMT -5
Most duals are requested by schools. GSOA fulfills 90+% requests for 3-man crews. Most unfulfilled are result of ref calling out day of game (it happens - illness, injury, work). The dual system is ok for most JV, but falls apart at Varsity. We're never in the right spot and it's very difficult to affect the game with your personality (consistency of calls, conversations with players on and off the ball, etc.) We hate them as much as everyone else. I tell players it's like the 5v2 drill and we're the 2 in the middle, just trying not to get split every time. Or playing 11 v 8, which is about the right ratio of 3 v 2 refs. If all of you claiming to never work HS would come work, we'd have more good officials... Many games are filmed and assessors do watch as many as possible. Assignment changes do result. 4th official in playoffs keeps the admin off the CR and provides another buffer for coaches and bench activity. Quality of officials is hit or miss, but many good referees. Not all get playoff matches and those assignments are vetted, particularly 2nd round on. I've rarely had an entirely bad crew, usually only one weak link we try to hide. Higher classification games generally get better crews. Come join us! I would say that there was one very good AR (that probably should have been centering the game). Have no clue about the 4th official as she really did nothing of any consequence either way. There was one AR that could not keep up with the line and missed some offside calls, none of which caused a goal but he did miss them. The most inept referee on the field though was the center in this particular game. I realize he probably had the most "experience" and thus got the Center position, but he was equally awful to both sides for the most part till the OT period where which it seemed that it went really lopsided call wise against Northgate. My irritation is even if the Center didn't possibly see the push off to get open for the "boom ball" (which I highly doubt since it happened within 10-15 yards of him), I know the AR1 and 4th official should have seen it and should have brought it to his attention prior to him awarding the goal and they did not. It was a failure by multiple people on that one particular call, and that was the lack of call of the push off that did create an advantage for the striker that change the outcome of the game. A call or lack of call that big needs to be discussed by one of the crew members with the center and it was not. That is why you have ARs, its for them to catch stuff you as a center miss. Even when it was clear there was controversy given the Captain of Northgate told him what happened he still did not discuss anything with the AR or 4th official to see what they saw. If I feel like I missed something in a game due to some controversy, I always make sure I talk with my ARs or if I'm an AR talk to my center before we move on, and that did not happen in this case. |
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Post by Keeper on Apr 25, 2024 15:46:39 GMT -5
Most duals are requested by schools. GSOA fulfills 90+% requests for 3-man crews. Most unfulfilled are result of ref calling out day of game (it happens - illness, injury, work). The dual system is ok for most JV, but falls apart at Varsity. We're never in the right spot and it's very difficult to affect the game with your personality (consistency of calls, conversations with players on and off the ball, etc.) We hate them as much as everyone else. I tell players it's like the 5v2 drill and we're the 2 in the middle, just trying not to get split every time. Or playing 11 v 8, which is about the right ratio of 3 v 2 refs. If all of you claiming to never work HS would come work, we'd have more good officials... Many games are filmed and assessors do watch as many as possible. Assignment changes do result. 4th official in playoffs keeps the admin off the CR and provides another buffer for coaches and bench activity. Quality of officials is hit or miss, but many good referees. Not all get playoff matches and those assignments are vetted, particularly 2nd round on. I've rarely had an entirely bad crew, usually only one weak link we try to hide. Higher classification games generally get better crews. Come join us! As someone who seems to actually know, how much say does the 4th official have? they like ARs that can call what they see and have the Center call it or not? |
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Post by soccerloafer on Apr 25, 2024 16:24:49 GMT -5
Most duals are requested by schools. GSOA fulfills 90+% requests for 3-man crews. Most unfulfilled are result of ref calling out day of game (it happens - illness, injury, work). The dual system is ok for most JV, but falls apart at Varsity. We're never in the right spot and it's very difficult to affect the game with your personality (consistency of calls, conversations with players on and off the ball, etc.) We hate them as much as everyone else. I tell players it's like the 5v2 drill and we're the 2 in the middle, just trying not to get split every time. Or playing 11 v 8, which is about the right ratio of 3 v 2 refs. If all of you claiming to never work HS would come work, we'd have more good officials... Many games are filmed and assessors do watch as many as possible. Assignment changes do result. 4th official in playoffs keeps the admin off the CR and provides another buffer for coaches and bench activity. Quality of officials is hit or miss, but many good referees. Not all get playoff matches and those assignments are vetted, particularly 2nd round on. I've rarely had an entirely bad crew, usually only one weak link we try to hide. Higher classification games generally get better crews. Come join us! As someone who seems to actually know, how much say does the 4th official have? they like ARs that can call what they see and have the Center call it or not? It all depends on the center and how they want to communicate. Good leaders integrate everyone in the crew, bad leaders do not, and it shows. In real time play, the 4th official doesn't have much say, unless the play is right in front of them, and they may nonverbally communicate with the center. After a stoppage or incident, the 4th can provide another opinion on what happened - since they are not running, they sometimes see things better. Not necessarily foul calling, but definitely pointing out misconduct off the ball (warning, caution, or ejection). Good 4th officials also act as an on-field assessor and give feedback at halftime. They can keep foul count, temperature of the game, an eye on trouble makers, etc. They can be a good buffer and calm presence when everyone else is losing their minds. The 4th isn't always the lowest official. In my playoff games this year (as AR or center), all but one of was higher level than me. |
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Post by rifle on Apr 25, 2024 21:11:22 GMT -5
Claim to be a good referee.
Claim HS referees stink.
Refuse to referee HS.
What exactly is the point here?
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Post by Keeper on Apr 25, 2024 21:40:05 GMT -5
As someone who seems to actually know, how much say does the 4th official have? they like ARs that can call what they see and have the Center call it or not? It all depends on the center and how they want to communicate. Good leaders integrate everyone in the crew, bad leaders do not, and it shows. In real time play, the 4th official doesn't have much say, unless the play is right in front of them, and they may nonverbally communicate with the center. After a stoppage or incident, the 4th can provide another opinion on what happened - since they are not running, they sometimes see things better. Not necessarily foul calling, but definitely pointing out misconduct off the ball (warning, caution, or ejection). Good 4th officials also act as an on-field assessor and give feedback at halftime. They can keep foul count, temperature of the game, an eye on trouble makers, etc. They can be a good buffer and calm presence when everyone else is losing their minds. The 4th isn't always the lowest official. In my playoff games this year (as AR or center), all but one of was higher level than me. Love the idea of a 4th official and especially for some of these older refs who can’t stay with the play but sure as hell know how to handle a rude coach or bring another set of eyes to a busy sport. One of the best ideas I heard from a coach was adding more refs to the game like other sports. Imagine an 11v11 game with two centers running a two person system but with ARs on the sidelines so you’d have a ref on each quarter of the field. |
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Post by soccerloafer on Apr 26, 2024 8:23:12 GMT -5
"One of the best ideas I heard from a coach was adding more refs to the game like other sports. Imagine an 11v11 game with two centers running a two person system but with ARs on the sidelines so you’d have a ref on each quarter of the field."
This would be not as good as it sounds. Florida HS has three whistles (think ARs with whistles instead of flags). Looks really messy.
If you think there are inconsistencies in foul calling now, just add more whistles.
Soccer is different than most sports because of the discretion allowed by the referee. A foul early might be advantage or no call later. Foul definitions change based on level of play and often within the game depending on the stage / temperature of the players. A hard foul with caution at lower level may be a soft foul or play on at high level... Having multiple whistles would be very hard to sync. Not a fan!
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Post by triffling on Apr 26, 2024 10:28:31 GMT -5
Claim to be a good referee. Claim HS referees stink. Refuse to referee HS. What exactly is the point here? I can’t speak for him, but there others like him who don’t do HS for similar reasons - largely having to do with the way HS reffing is managed and assigned. It’s a bureaucratic mess and still somewhat of a good ole boy system even though the good ole boys don’t have accents like the used to. For me it was a complete lack of flexibility by the GSOA which is the main assigning group for metro Atlanta. I have no shortage of opportunities to referee including at high levels of the sport and after being told for months by lots of member referees that they really could use me as a referee the lack of flexibility by the GSOA made the decision not to referee HS easy. At the time I actually had time and work flexibility to ref JV and Varsity games, but they wouldn’t accommodate a conflict I had with the clinic. Guess what, my kids come first. Honestly, it GHSA would simply recognize adult USSF certified refs as being qualified to referee the HS game without having to do duplicative clinics for the HS game they could easily have sufficient referees to cover all of their games. Instead you get a combination of mediocre ussf refs (often older / retired) along with some non USSF certified refs who ref multiple HS sports. Then you have a smattering of younger up and coming refs who will get certified for HS but they get discouraged when they find that they are running lines for refs who are not good and can’t get around the field which just demoralizes and disincentivizes them from investing much time and effort into the HS game. |
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Post by soccerlegacy on Apr 26, 2024 10:44:48 GMT -5
How much do HS refs get paid? Curious if it would be worth it when I finally get free time later in life like many of these HS refs.
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Post by triffling on Apr 26, 2024 12:01:54 GMT -5
How much do HS refs get paid? Curious if it would be worth it when I finally get free time later in life like many of these HS refs. I’m not sure what the current pay is, but I know that for the referee pay is lower than for the elite travel leagues (MLS Next / Girls Academy / ECNL). They pay Refs and ARs the same which on paper should help with coverage, but in reality it means they are essentially overpaying for guys to run line who literally cannot RUN. I would also point out that early in the HS season I saw JV and Freshman games played on Saturdays and they still only had two men crews. This was before the youth seasons had even started and they were struggling for coverage. |
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Post by Keeper on Apr 26, 2024 14:56:59 GMT -5
"One of the best ideas I heard from a coach was adding more refs to the game like other sports. Imagine an 11v11 game with two centers running a two person system but with ARs on the sidelines so you’d have a ref on each quarter of the field." This would be not as good as it sounds. Florida HS has three whistles (think ARs with whistles instead of flags). Looks really messy. If you think there are inconsistencies in foul calling now, just add more whistles. Soccer is different than most sports because of the discretion allowed by the referee. A foul early might be advantage or no call later. Foul definitions change based on level of play and often within the game depending on the stage / temperature of the players. A hard foul with caution at lower level may be a soft foul or play on at high level... Having multiple whistles would be very hard to sync. Not a fan! One if they can have multiple whistles in a basketball gym then a soccer field is doable. Two, don’t have to have the whistle and could do something like hockey where the foul is recognized but not called/whistled until a stoppage. Either way the current speed of soccer and the way it’s getting faster has outpaced the current system so something has to change. |
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 26, 2024 15:27:14 GMT -5
Claim to be a good referee. Claim HS referees stink. Refuse to referee HS. What exactly is the point here? I think my explanation and points are quite clear in my OP and my comments further down the post. Your dismissive comment here doesn't change that. You just either didn't read my post and comments or just don't agree, but since you can't read I'll give you my main issues. 1) The two man system sucks for refereeing soccer and I refuse to do it. 2) Given how horrible I have seen some refereeing this year and previous years I do not want to be stuck in a 3 man crew with 1-2 other bad referees where I get lumped into being just as bad as them especially if those bad ones refuse to listen to the constructive criticism on some of their calls. I just don't want to be in that situation at all. The rest triffling answered are also all quite good points of why I won't do it. I'm too old to be paying my dues and having to run AR lines for years before I get a chance to center a HS game. I can understand if I was a teenager or college student having to pay my dues. I'm too old to be doing that crap at my age. I get higher level centers just fine in youth soccer that would blow HS away. If there is a ton of hoops to jump to just referee HS, yeah no thanks.... |
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Post by soccernoleuk on Apr 26, 2024 16:40:48 GMT -5
How much do HS refs get paid? Curious if it would be worth it when I finally get free time later in life like many of these HS refs. I’m not sure what the current pay is, but I know that for the referee pay is lower than for the elite travel leagues (MLS Next / Girls Academy / ECNL). They pay Refs and ARs the same which on paper should help with coverage, but in reality it means they are essentially overpaying for guys to run line who literally cannot RUN. I would also point out that early in the HS season I saw JV and Freshman games played on Saturdays and they still only had two men crews. This was before the youth seasons had even started and they were struggling for coverage. I don't believe this has anything to do with coverage. A lot of schools don't pay for 3 referees unless it is a Varsity Region game. I don't believe I have ever seen a JV game with 3 referees, with the exception being at the Gwinnett JV Tournament AFU used to host. Whatever happened to that anyway? |
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Post by triffling on Apr 26, 2024 21:39:59 GMT -5
"One of the best ideas I heard from a coach was adding more refs to the game like other sports. Imagine an 11v11 game with two centers running a two person system but with ARs on the sidelines so you’d have a ref on each quarter of the field." This would be not as good as it sounds. Florida HS has three whistles (think ARs with whistles instead of flags). Looks really messy. If you think there are inconsistencies in foul calling now, just add more whistles. Soccer is different than most sports because of the discretion allowed by the referee. A foul early might be advantage or no call later. Foul definitions change based on level of play and often within the game depending on the stage / temperature of the players. A hard foul with caution at lower level may be a soft foul or play on at high level... Having multiple whistles would be very hard to sync. Not a fan! One if they can have multiple whistles in a basketball gym then a soccer field is doable. Two, don’t have to have the whistle and could do something like hockey where the foul is recognized but not called/whistled until a stoppage. Either way the current speed of soccer and the way it’s getting faster has outpaced the current system so something has to change. No it hasn’t. Talk to anyone who plays in a state that has multiple whistles in HS games and it’s a joke. The officiating isn’t better, it’s worse. Just like the two man system. |
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Post by rifle on Apr 26, 2024 22:23:40 GMT -5
Claim to be a good referee. Claim HS referees stink. Refuse to referee HS. What exactly is the point here? I think my explanation and points are quite clear in my OP and my comments further down the post. Your dismissive comment here doesn't change that. You just either didn't read my post and comments or just don't agree, but since you can't read I'll give you my main issues. 1) The two man system sucks for refereeing soccer and I refuse to do it. 2) Given how horrible I have seen some refereeing this year and previous years I do not want to be stuck in a 3 man crew with 1-2 other bad referees where I get lumped into being just as bad as them especially if those bad ones refuse to listen to the constructive criticism on some of their calls. I just don't want to be in that situation at all. The rest triffling answered are also all quite good points of why I won't do it. I'm too old to be paying my dues and having to run AR lines for years before I get a chance to center a HS game. I can understand if I was a teenager or college student having to pay my dues. I'm too old to be doing that crap at my age. I get higher level centers just fine in youth soccer that would blow HS away. If there is a ton of hoops to jump to just referee HS, yeah no thanks.... Thanks. I read it as you think they suck and you could do better - but you just don’t want to do it. The extra context helps (whether I missed it the first time or whether you didn’t actually write what you think you did - is kinda moot at this point). I have also heard : A) of the gatekeeping that may or may not exist in getting HS game assignments. B) that each school decides whether to PAY two versus three (or three plus one) - it’s not a foregone conclusion that HS = 2 man. Personally - I think HS referees are fine. Some mistakes get made but they’re generally okay. It’s a high pressure situation and not everyone can do it. It is what it is. I won’t referee HS because they’re too fookin fast and I believe when referees can’t be in position it is “unacceptable”. I also don’t care to learn a non IFAB set of rules that are dumb. I also don’t have the schedule flexibility to be on a field at 4:30pm on weekdays. Ever. |
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Post by soccerhambo on Apr 27, 2024 8:07:56 GMT -5
Absolute mess. I see better referees in U10 academy games. My person favorite two seasons ago was a dual referee that pulled out his phone and was obviously checking/reading something during game play. He also had a whistle that sounded like it came out a Cracker Jack box. I wish that there was a more supportive environment to allow young referees to grow and make mistakes that ultimately leads to better referees as they grow: unfortunately, I see too many kids do 1 season and quit after a parent or coach of a U8 game loses their mind on the kid for a mistaken call.
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Post by rifle on Apr 27, 2024 11:11:52 GMT -5
Well this morning a PL referee made an apparent major gaffe as well. So… it happens.
Tip: Try to take the stuff less seriously. Especially kids. Those refs aren’t wearing FIFA patches on their sleeves.
They aren’t out to screw you*. They are most likely trying to do a good job.
* I will openly admit to letting obnoxious parents and players influence my decision making on a questionable “both” players kicked it out of bounds type situation.
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Post by soccerloafer on Apr 28, 2024 12:43:42 GMT -5
Thoughts on many of the posts above.
HS training / certification. Really not that bad. Initial is online videos and test. One group Zoom for newbies to get online access correct. Annual training is a few videos, mainly highlighting HS differences and procedures. For example, handling is much more lenient... One annual meeting for rule changes and fitness test. It's not onerous.
Assignments. I had varsity centers my first season (experienced USSF ref and past HS ref) and went deep into the playoffs. I knew very few folks initially. While there is certainly a group of 'insiders' it's not something that blocks quality referees from good assignments. As in any organization, make yourself known, be helpful, and be clear about what you want. What some call 'insiders' are core members who have been putting in the work for years, particularly behind the scenes.
My assignments this season were split almost evenly between centers, ARs, and duals. Six of the duals were varsity, but four of those were small schools and not an issue. One sucked, but the school only wanted to pay for 2. You don't have to accept them, and I would turn them down if assigned frequently. Every now and then you jump on a grenade for the assignor and get a better game later. Same everywhere...
I haven't had any trouble with fans or coaches in ~160+ games in the past 3 seasons (maybe one coach caution a season). Can count on one hand number of issues with other referees. It's not as prevalent as you may think.
Pay rate is $65 for a dual, $74 for 3-man, regardless of position. Plus mileage one way per day. Playoffs pay more ($120 for center, $110 AR, a bit less for 4th).
If you can handle an alphabet league game, you can easily handle an HS game. Come join us.
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Post by ibisduck on Apr 29, 2024 8:51:36 GMT -5
It wasn't just the referees at this game....Playing in any Dekalb stadium against any Dekalb county team is a nightmare...Both games Northgate had against Dekalb county teams were horrible. First game of the season against Chamblee was one sided referees as well as the last minute change of venues 30 mins away causing most of the parents missing the first half of the game. The Tucker game CR was horrible, definitely wasn't paying attention because he constantly getting hit with the ball and interrupting the flow of the game all night....and not only was there a problem with the officiating but also the security/DCPD. Too busy worrying about a parents being too loud (one parent dropped an S bomb)but couldn't be bothered with constant wafting smell dank weed that permeated the entire stadium.....was sure to have had a contact high.....Also, how many coaches are allowed on the sidelines? Tucker had a minimum of 10?
On another note, why can't they regulate the Ref's/clock keeper to have radios and earpieces? Would definitely help with communications between the Refs, especially in the 2 officials' system......It's available for football coaches in the both talking to the sidelines.....
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Post by NotherSoccerParent on May 1, 2024 7:36:49 GMT -5
Question for all the refs out there. If a player gets fouled after he gets a shot off in the penalty area, should a PK be awarded? This happened in the Lassiter-Glynn Academy match last night. Ball went into the box, GA player got the shot off (and obviously missed), then got knocked over. PK awarded.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on May 1, 2024 8:01:39 GMT -5
Question for all the refs out there. If a player gets fouled after he gets a shot off in the penalty area, should a PK be awarded? This happened in the Lassiter-Glynn Academy match last night. Ball went into the box, GA player got the shot off (and obviously missed), then got knocked over. PK awarded. Depends on how reckless the challenge is. There can indeed be "advantage" in the box as the "Ref Needs Love Guy" (David Gerson) has covered previously with his analysis on one of his videos recently. The way I normally handle it is if the shot was taken and any challenge or contact would not have affected that shot then I won't usually call the foul unless it is just a really reckless challenge. Also getting knocked over doesn't necessarily mean he got fouled. When an attacking player goes to shoot the ball with full force that can make them a little unbalanced after kicking the ball. A simple shoulder check that might make the guy fully lose his balance when he was already a little out of balance wouldn't be a foul in my opinion. You also have to take into account how "easy" these kids are going down. As a referee you might fool me once or twice going down easy on very light contact, but at some point in the game I'm going to catch on and you will be flopping for no reason or worse if I 100% know you were simulating, you are getting a card from me. I would have to see the video of the play to give my analysis on the specific play. |
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He has had several Referee assignors and assessors on the field tell him he needs to work toward getting his Regional certification as well. So maybe there will be one good one out there at some point soon.
