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Post by Soccerhouse on Apr 5, 2018 11:56:19 GMT -5
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 5, 2018 12:13:51 GMT -5
That is a fascinating article. It makes a ton of sense too. Obviously cannot replace the current system for many reasons, nonetheless a great tool to challenge the early maturing kids and to allow the late bloomers a chance to shine in an environment that is more appropriate to them.
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Post by atv on Apr 5, 2018 14:02:47 GMT -5
I would be more interested in the scientific evidence of predicting the future athletic performance of kids that are quite frankly very young and making an assessment that this particular kid is going to be a superior athlete.
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Post by soccerfan30 on Apr 5, 2018 14:50:14 GMT -5
Once again US Soccer gets it wrong, bio banding can't predict technical development or soccer IQ. We aren't behind the rest of the world because we're not athletic or fit enough.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 5, 2018 15:23:19 GMT -5
Once again US Soccer gets it wrong, bio banding can't predict technical development or soccer IQ. We aren't behind the rest of the world because we're not athletic or fit enough. I don't think that is what it is saying at all. If you have a young boy, say 12 years old, that is 4 feet 5 inches tall but may end up 5 feet 8 and he is getting beat all of the time despite great technical skills because he is so small and not quick enough or strong enough to get the ball to start with then this could be very helpful for his development. Conversely I was 5 feet 9 inches at 13 and despite not being very thick (I only weighed 125lbs) I was very fast, very aggressive and very powerful. I was the same size when I graduated college. I wasn't an early bloomer but in the late 80's that was very tall for a girl. I never learned the type of technical skills because I didn't know any better and I could always win the duel due to speed, size and frankly a large dose of intimidation so I didnt really need to learn them as far as I knew. This was true even playing with and against boys (whom I towered over even more at the same age group). When I dribbled I just beat people with speed and shielding. I would have been a better technical and tactical player if at 13 I had to play against high school age girls.
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Post by trumpetflower on Apr 5, 2018 16:54:16 GMT -5
I think oraclesfriend is correct -- the idea of bio-banding is to make sure late developers who have technical ability don't get overlooked, and then also to challenge early developers to attain technique when playing against more physical opponents.
But i'll discuss another point made by soccerfan30 -- namely that we're not behind the rest of the world in terms of athleticism. this fits a well worn canard in academy soccer circles - that our kids are the U12 Iniesta, passed over at ODP because other kids were flashy, strong and fast.
I think there's a continued effort to recruit speed and strength because this is what the rest of the world is doing too, and maybe doing better. The French MNT, the Dutch WNT -- both are really athletic. Of course, there's technique too -- but there's a high bar of athleticism in those squads.
There was a post about the Atl Und U17s against Flamengo a few weeks ago, with some discussion about who controlled the match. If you watched, it was clear that AU struggled with their flair and guile, but also with their pace and power in the air. Flamengo was more athletic.
If you watched the Prospects' Cup late last year (international U12 tournament), you saw the same thing. The teams that dominated (Man City, Roma, Fluminense) had monsters on the field. They were tremendously skilled, but the pace and power was evident.
US Soccer may be behind in many areas -- and identifying the best athletes to play may be just one more.
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Post by alacrity174 on Apr 6, 2018 7:50:12 GMT -5
I think oraclesfriend is correct -- the idea of bio-banding is to make sure late developers who have technical ability don't get overlooked, and then also to challenge early developers to attain technique when playing against more physical opponents. But i'll discuss another point made by soccerfan30 -- namely that we're not behind the rest of the world in terms of athleticism. this fits a well worn canard in academy soccer circles - that our kids are the U12 Iniesta, passed over at ODP because other kids were flashy, strong and fast. I think there's a continued effort to recruit speed and strength because this is what the rest of the world is doing too, and maybe doing better. The French MNT, the Dutch WNT -- both are really athletic. Of course, there's technique too -- but there's a high bar of athleticism in those squads. There was a post about the Atl Und U17s against Flamengo a few weeks ago, with some discussion about who controlled the match. If you watched, it was clear that AU struggled with their flair and guile, but also with their pace and power in the air. Flamengo was more athletic. If you watched the Prospects' Cup late last year (international U12 tournament), you saw the same thing. The teams that dominated (Man City, Roma, Fluminense) had monsters on the field. They were tremendously skilled, but the pace and power was evident. US Soccer may be behind in many areas -- and identifying the best athletes to play may be just one more. So Messi as a small kid playing against bigger kids didn't have to learn how to deal with differing size opposition? As has been already mentioned this is rubbish science, maybe for American football it's fine because you want the big kids but for soccer this is mumbo jumbo. Better to let the smaller kids play with the bigger kids that's the way to get better not playing everyone who is the same as you. Once again US Soccer is stuck on athleticism and isn't paying attention to the mental side of the game, size and speed only get you so far, you need technical ability and a soccer brain more.
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Post by atv on Apr 6, 2018 8:04:36 GMT -5
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Post by alacrity174 on Apr 6, 2018 8:33:25 GMT -5
The biggest take away from this and the US Soccer video is that the coaches can't get past early physical maturity, it is nothing to do with the players. Better to educate the coaches than add another layer of bureaucracy to an already bloated system
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Post by SoccerMom on Apr 6, 2018 8:33:36 GMT -5
I am trying to wrap my head around this....and decide how i feel about it. This to me just seems like more wussification of soccer in America. My kid is small for his age, poor him so lets create a special group so that he doesn't feel bad?? As someone mentioned before, Messi was small and look at him, it didn't stop him from becoming what he is today. Adversity creates resilience and builds character..I know a few kids much smaller for their age and yet they're the best ones on their teams. How about we teach our kids to fight harder for what they want? Yes maybe they have to work twice as much as the bigger kid, but in the long run it will be more beneficial to them.
This is part of life, parents need to learn that its time to stop coddling your kids so much.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Apr 6, 2018 8:35:16 GMT -5
Thats why I'll get on my high horse and preach about the failures of our federation --
should have left the age groups alone!! you already had DA using calendar year, girls DA was a year away and they too would be utilizing calendar year.
Hence, leave the rest alone -- it would have allowed the country to continue to have 2 systems in place -
one that utilizes birth year one that utilizes academic year
The younger fall birthdays could prosper in the academic side, until they become mature enough to compete on a regular basis with the older birth year.
The big problem is getting over the stigma, if little johnny not being on the top team etc... some parents won't have it.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 6, 2018 8:45:13 GMT -5
Yes Messi was able to do it. Some will and some won't but let's talk about Zlatan. Some made the comments about his technical ability, his dribbling etc. If he was always huge would he have developed this? He said no in his book. This isn't only about the small ones getting a chance, but the big and fast ones being forces to develop technical and tactically skills. You are looking at it from one side only.
Secondly, it is not for all of the time. The point of it is to do it some of the time. Occasional training sessions and matches. I see nothing wrong with this. I feel like it is a good adjunct, not the sole method of training.
I have children that are on each end of this spectrum. One that is taller (though not super tall) and one that is smaller (though not super small). They both have trained with groups that are able to let them work on different skills. It is beneficial to focus on different skills than you are naturally suited. I wish I had played with bigger, faster kids when I was younger so I would have been forced to beat them with skills rather than speed and intimidation.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 6, 2018 8:55:00 GMT -5
Yes Messi was able to do it. Some will and some won't but let's talk about Zlatan. Some made the comments about his technical ability, his dribbling etc. If he was always huge would he have developed this? He said no in his book. This isn't only about the small ones getting a chance, but the big and fast ones being forces to develop technical and tactically skills. You are looking at it from one side only. Secondly, it is not for all of the time. The point of it is to do it some of the time. Occasional training sessions and matches. I see nothing wrong with this. I feel like it is a good adjunct, not the sole method of training. I have children that are on each end of this spectrum. One that is taller (though not super tall) and one that is smaller (though not super small). They both have trained with groups that are able to let them work on different skills. It is beneficial to focus on different skills than you are naturally suited. I wish I had played with bigger, faster kids when I was younger so I would have been forced to beat them with skills rather than speed and intimidation. I agree with Soccermom a little too. This is not a great thing for everyone. There is a bit of mollycoddling in this for the small kids, but they are just kids after all. It is good for some kids and not for others, but isn't that true for everything? Soccerhouse I am not sure the birth year versus academic year solves this entirely. There are 6 foot tall girls playing U13 against 4 feet 8 inch 80 lbs girls. It can be even worse on the boys side. 4-8 months age difference doesn't solve that. That happened even before the birth year. (As an aside I was not a fan of the birth year switch). I am not a cheerleader for this new system but I think challenges help everyone! This challenges the bigger kids and gives some freedom from getting knocked around to the smaller kids so allows them to develop or showcase the late bloomers. I think everyone is freaking out a little thinking this will be some sort of new system. To me it sounds like an ODP sort of thing...occasionally there to provide different challenges.
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Post by gaprospects on Apr 6, 2018 9:51:05 GMT -5
Don't really have an opinion on this either way, but I feel like we need to point out the absurdity of any argument that involves "Well Messi did it, therefore anyone can"
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Post by newposter on Apr 6, 2018 10:26:54 GMT -5
I don't see the benefit. Regardless of sport, there will always be players bigger, faster, stronger. Those trying to compete have to get better, there are drills to get faster, drills to get more technical and let's not forget the mental aspect of the game. If your not where you are where you are supposed to be on the field, none of those variables matter. BTW, if your destined to be 5 ft 6 you will be. This approach will not change that.
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Post by SoccerMom on Apr 6, 2018 10:40:46 GMT -5
Don't really have an opinion on this either way, but I feel like we need to point out the absurdity of any argument that involves "Well Messi did it, therefore anyone can" Without dropping any names..... The smallest girl on my daughters team growing up ...is now on the National Team, and has been for a couple of years -- -and shes still smaller than girls her age The smallest boy on the boys side on the same age group is also on the National Team and has been for a couple of years --- and hes still the smallest one These two kids are where they are because they worked hard, they knew they were smaller so they worked extra hard. Yes i believe anyone who works hard enough can do it, lets stop trying to wussify the sport in order to accommodate our kids and their feelings not be hurt. Do you think that other countries worry about that? no they don't, they take the best players regardless of size. Not all kids are meant to be pros. This is why soccer will never be big in this country, we over analyze everything! Next lets put pads on the kids, and change it to quarters and add mandatory water breaks
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Post by SoccerMom on Apr 6, 2018 10:56:40 GMT -5
There is a case to be made smaller players who are forced to overcome the disadvantages of size ultimately grow more. The risk here is that some smaller children who could develop into great players may never reach that point because they can’t cope against the larger players and quit the sport.
That sentence right there says it all to me....if the player can't cope because there are larger players out there then I'm sorry but life can't be accommodated to them. So when they're adults what happens? if someone does the same work better than them...do we put the slower workers together so that they don't feel pressured? There a life lessons to be learned from this, life is not fair, and if we want something we have to work for it.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 6, 2018 13:10:52 GMT -5
There is a case to be made smaller players who are forced to overcome the disadvantages of size ultimately grow more. The risk here is that some smaller children who could develop into great players may never reach that point because they can’t cope against the larger players and quit the sport.
That sentence right there says it all to me....if the player can't cope because there are larger players out there then I'm sorry but life can't be accommodated to them. So when they're adults what happens? if someone does the same work better than them...do we put the slower workers together so that they don't feel pressured? There a life lessons to be learned from this, life is not fair, and if we want something we have to work for it. I think you have a really great point. The best girl I know personally is smaller than all of the girls she plays with. I have told her mom to stop worrying about it because it is what is making her such a good technical player. FYI her mom played college soccer at a D1 Top 10 school. Part of the reason why her daughter is so good is the mental toughness. A huge part of it is her mom's technical expertise and training. That being said mental toughness doesn't develop in all kids at the same age. Some may not be in high school until they have the maturity to do that. It is not wussification to put kids in environments where they may succeed with more time, effort and at a better level that matches them. Also is everyone else here just being blind? Why am I the only one who sees this as a benefit for the early bloomers physically? Maybe you all were just short so never have been on the other side of the situation. This is definitely a benefit for the bigger kids. Force them to be more technical and tactical instead of just big and strong. If you read the comments at the bottom of the article there was a parent who commented on his 12 year old son who is 5ft 7 and 125lbs. He dominates his team and age group but the clubs in his area don't want to play him up because they want to win. That kid would benefit from this. There is a girl on my daughter's team who is super fast but not technical or tactical. She usually gets away with it because she is fast but she is out of position a lot and her technical skills leave a lot to be desired. People who watch our team are so impressed with her because she rarely gets beaten (she is a center back) but those of us with more knowledge see that it is speed that saves her but her tactics are bad. If she was to go up against faster and older girls she would be schooled and forced to see what she needs to fix.
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Post by alacrity174 on Apr 6, 2018 13:20:39 GMT -5
Yes Messi was able to do it. Some will and some won't but let's talk about Zlatan. Some made the comments about his technical ability, his dribbling etc. If he was always huge would he have developed this? He said no in his book. This isn't only about the small ones getting a chance, but the big and fast ones being forces to develop technical and tactically skills. You are looking at it from one side only. Secondly, it is not for all of the time. The point of it is to do it some of the time. Occasional training sessions and matches. I see nothing wrong with this. I feel like it is a good adjunct, not the sole method of training. I have children that are on each end of this spectrum. One that is taller (though not super tall) and one that is smaller (though not super small). They both have trained with groups that are able to let them work on different skills. It is beneficial to focus on different skills than you are naturally suited. I wish I had played with bigger, faster kids when I was younger so I would have been forced to beat them with skills rather than speed and intimidation. A simple answer to the bigger kids is let them play/practice with the older groups, this way they get to see what its like not to be the biggest/fastest, learn better technical skills and then play meaningful games at their own age. This seems a much simpler answer than going through this whole rigmarole of height v Parents height and computer rubbish. How much time and money did US Soccer put into this when a far simpler solution was staring them right in the face?
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 6, 2018 13:30:35 GMT -5
Ok. So maybe I was a little rude with my blind comment, and letting them play with older age groups is a good plan however clubs sometimes won't do it and this forces it. Sometimes parents are against it too because they fear injury with the bigger players and their kid not being used to it.
I really think that this is a research project. After all, that is what they say they are doing. Maybe it won't work. Maybe they will decide to let it go. It isn't a bad idea to give it a try. The height predictor stuff is garbage. After all my two kids would be likely to be predicted to be the same height and adult height can change (mine has) and can be influenced by external factors.
I would rather that they actually tried out something than just institute it without trying it first. If they find that it is helpful, then great. If it is garbage then they trash it. At least they are trying out something rather than just mandating an idea without any research behind it. Everyone freaked out with the birth year mandate. Some people freaked out with the build out line and the 7v7 and 9v9 small sided soccer. Here at least they are trying it in a small sample size rather than instituting it everywhere at once.
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Post by alacrity174 on Apr 6, 2018 13:38:47 GMT -5
Don't really have an opinion on this either way, but I feel like we need to point out the absurdity of any argument that involves "Well Messi did it, therefore anyone can" OK so if we don't use Messi, how about Giovinco or Josef Martinez or Jordi Alba or N'Golo Kante or Alexis Sanchez................. The point is there are plenty of "shorter/slighter" players who are out there outplaying the "Big Boys". It looks like US Soccer has found a solution to a problem which if you watch their own video is pretty much a coaching problem. If the coach could look past the biggest most physical player and was really a soccer coach with a soccer brain he/she would see the real better player, even if that player did seem to get manhandled off the ball some. As someone else mentioned how do the bigger more matured players develop well part of that should be on them to not rely on speed/size alone but they could easily play up and age group where they aren't the biggest kid, seems a very simple solution from here.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 6, 2018 13:51:59 GMT -5
Don't really have an opinion on this either way, but I feel like we need to point out the absurdity of any argument that involves "Well Messi did it, therefore anyone can" OK so if we don't use Messi, how about Giovinco or Josef Martinez or Jordi Alba or N'Golo Kante or Alexis Sanchez................. The point is there are plenty of "shorter/slighter" players who are out there outplaying the "Big Boys". It looks like US Soccer has found a solution to a problem which if you watch their own video is pretty much a coaching problem. If the coach could look past the biggest most physical player and was really a soccer coach with a soccer brain he/she would see the real better player, even if that player did seem to get manhandled off the ball some. As someone else mentioned how do the bigger more matured players develop well part of that should be on them to not rely on speed/size alone but they could easily play up and age group where they aren't the biggest kid, seems a very simple solution from here. No question a large part of this is a coaching problem. The "eye"test is not a good way to evaluate talent. It is going to be very hard to change an entire coaching culture though and certainly not something that can be done overnight. It is easier and faster to showcase these kids by placing them TEMPORARILY in a different setting. Personally I think it would be terrible to do this all of the time, but I think it is not harmful to do it for a weekend showcase, say quarterly. As for the bigger kids unfortunately I think coaches won't go for it. It is still too much about wins and not about development. My older daughter trains with a team that is 3 age groups up from her. Her age group team and this team share a coach. He recognized that she needed a bigger challenge so that is how he provided it for her. She looks great playing with this team. Her coach doesn't want her to play games with this team or even scrimmages against other teams because he doesn't want her to pick up a minor injury that will keep her out of her own age group games. In the trainings thus far she has hurt more of their players (minor things) than they have hurt her, but I do see his concern. She is 12. They are 15 and 16 year olds. It isn't only a size thing though. She is 5"4" and 105 lbs. Some of these girls are the same size that she is, however they are more intense mentally than she is and they have more experience in these size bodies. Mine is still growing and so there are times she isn't quite as knowledgeable about where her body is in space. That isn't just an age or a growth thing. That is a brain maturity thing.
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Post by newposter on Apr 6, 2018 15:37:53 GMT -5
Forgive me but this sounds like let's make sure no one feels bad. The idea that kids need to face challenges even adversity is gone. Let's give them all a trophy, a safe space (field) and call it a day. Love to know if this idea is tried in successful soccer countries i.e. anywhere but here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 15:44:54 GMT -5
Too me it makes a statement that teams should be practicing near one another etc.
For example our u12s and u13s DA teams train at the same time & same location.
But, never have they trained together or mixed up the kids etc. A handful of kids have trained for 15 minutes here or there with them, but never a true, lets just throw the 12s and 13s together and split them up to 4 different teams etc.
Hell just take the top 10 players based upon what ever criteria you select and have them train with the 13s and then vise versa.
Sorry to add this as well -- the training sessions are also completely different, not sure if their is really a training curriculum at all.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 6, 2018 16:27:49 GMT -5
Too me it makes a statement that teams should be practicing near one another etc. For example our u12s and u13s DA teams train at the same time & same location. But, never have they trained together or mixed up the kids etc. A handful of kids have trained for 15 minutes here or there with them, but never a true, lets just throw the 12s and 13s together and split them up to 4 different teams etc. Hell just take the top 10 players based upon what ever criteria you select and have them train with the 13s and then vise versa. Sorry to add this as well -- the training sessions are also completely different, not sure if their is really a training curriculum at all. I actually think that is a great idea for a lot of teams to do on a limited basis, like once or twice per month. I have often found that the quality difference between the top 2-4 kids and the bottom 2-4 kids on a team is WAY bigger than the difference between the bottom 2-4 on the top team and the top 2-4 on the second team. I imagine that would be similar between age groups as well (the top 5 U13 and the top 5 U14 will be closer to each other than the top and bottom within the same age group). Sounds like an easy way to mix it up. I have rarely seen teams do it though. At our club it is hard to get teams to scrimmage each other. U13 2nd team versus U14 second team or U13 top team for example. This has happened less and less over time. My friend's daughter plays at Tophat though and they seem to do it a lot there.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Apr 6, 2018 17:18:34 GMT -5
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Post by newposter on Apr 6, 2018 17:45:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the example. I wonder why we haven't heard anything for three years. Makes one wonder if this didn't pan out?
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 6, 2018 19:12:49 GMT -5
Wow! First, it is interesting to see that it happened previously. Obviously not US Soccer's idea (not that they usually have original ideas anyway). Second, your research on topics and recollection of things is really impressive! I am amazed at the things you find!
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Post by jash on Apr 8, 2018 20:11:49 GMT -5
The whole idea is that early puberty is not a good predictor of future success. That's it.
It shocks me to see so many people calling it wussification, or trying to protect feelings, or trophies for everyone. Sure, a handful of late bloomers have tremendous success, and some because they are forced to play with kids who, FOR A FEW YEARS are physically more mature than they are. But honestly, most of them get overlooked because they simply aren't physically the same age (developmentally speaking) as their calendar year peers.
What could possibly be wrong with normalizing development age for the roughly 5 year period where early onset puberty vs late onset puberty creates artificial differences between players -- differences that will eventually completely disappear?
All it can do is give more kids a chance to be seen on a level field and decrease the chances that someone really excellent will slip through the cracks.
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Post by soccerlegacy on Apr 9, 2018 15:08:10 GMT -5
The whole idea is that early puberty is not a good predictor of future success. That's it. It shocks me to see so many people calling it wussification, or trying to protect feelings, or trophies for everyone. Sure, a handful of late bloomers have tremendous success, and some because they are forced to play with kids who, FOR A FEW YEARS are physically more mature than they are. But honestly, most of them get overlooked because they simply aren't physically the same age (developmentally speaking) as their calendar year peers. What could possibly be wrong with normalizing development age for the roughly 5 year period where early onset puberty vs late onset puberty creates artificial differences between players -- differences that will eventually completely disappear? All it can do is give more kids a chance to be seen on a level field and decrease the chances that someone really excellent will slip through the cracks. Well said. Spot on.
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