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Post by atv on Oct 7, 2019 6:44:16 GMT -5
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 7, 2019 8:34:10 GMT -5
This just in, blanket statements don't fit all. Its a fluff piece for both leagues.
Do some players want to play for their high school and compete for a state title? Yes
Do some players not care about playing for their high school. Yes
Can you get to the YNT from both leagues? Yes
Of course, if you believe what *THEY* say, ODP has a new pathway to the YNT.
Truth is, both leagues make the overall competition in each weaker. But that's nothing new. USYS needs to get their crap together and create a club based elite league so they can get a better mention in articles like this.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 7, 2019 8:45:03 GMT -5
Until a league actually pays attention and cares about cost to play, we are doomed as a male soccer nation. As we all can see, we are being caught in the women's game also.
Teams traveling 7+ hours to play a single game by trains, planes, or automobiles is ridiculous on so many levels. It's a horrible use of clubs and parents resources.
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Post by blu on Oct 7, 2019 9:35:01 GMT -5
Teams traveling 7+ hours to play a single game by trains, planes, or automobiles is ridiculous on so many levels. It's a horrible use of clubs and parents resources. I agree. We are in our first year with ECNL and the trips to Florida are dumb. The teams aren't any better than we could find here in Atlanta if everyone could get on the same page (DA/ECNL/whatever else).
I know that's not going to happen so my second wish would be to put FL in their own ECNL bracket. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 7, 2019 10:01:14 GMT -5
Teams traveling 7+ hours to play a single game by trains, planes, or automobiles is ridiculous on so many levels. It's a horrible use of clubs and parents resources. I agree. We are in our first year with ECNL and the trips to Florida are dumb. The teams aren't any better than we could find here in Atlanta if everyone could get on the same page (DA/ECNL/whatever else).
I know that's not going to happen so my second wish would be to put FL in their own ECNL bracket. Preach on brother (or sister). Its garbage travel. FL has 6 ECNL clubs and 4-5 DA, that is ridiculous. GA teams should be playing teams that far away in a showcase/tournament. With USYS NL, they are merging FL teams BACK IN to the GA conference, sucks for everyone involved. I maintain that ECNL and NL (and even DA) should be ADJUNCT leagues. Play local teams then have 2-3 tournament/showcases a season (August/October/December). edit: REAL travel soccer should not start until U16, period. Its all a money-grab. The out of state tournament (including a champion) should be the only exception. Showcases at U15 and below are pointless IMO. You want to bring college scouts and YNT scouts to a single location to see the best players at U15 and below? Have them visit an ODP practice or ODP regionals. That's where the best players SHOULD BE. Only the best players at U15 and below should be traveling. Of course, DA would have to allow its players to tryout for ODP again. But hell, even DA doesn't take U14 seriously (and it shouldn't) as there's no national competition. |
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Post by atv on Oct 7, 2019 10:54:26 GMT -5
Teams traveling 7+ hours to play a single game by trains, planes, or automobiles is ridiculous on so many levels. It's a horrible use of clubs and parents resources. I agree. We are in our first year with ECNL and the trips to Florida are dumb. The teams aren't any better than we could find here in Atlanta if everyone could get on the same page (DA/ECNL/whatever else).
I know that's not going to happen so my second wish would be to put FL in their own ECNL bracket. On the boys side, some of the FL teams are good such as FL Elite, however, not all. Jacksonville Armada is terrible at every age group. They are 4-36-6 overall this year. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 7, 2019 11:20:49 GMT -5
Florida has a huge population but it is spread out and traffic is pretty bad there as well. The population of South Florida is 5.7 million people. They have 1 DA and 1 ECNL team there compared to 4 ECNL and 2 DA teams in Atlanta for the same (roughly) population. South Florida was late to jump on the ECNL bandwagon...they just jumped on when DA started basically. This year their one ECNL team is doing quite well, helped along by merging with a historically strong club in Sunrise Sting.
It is Jacksonville and Tampa where they are too watered down. Three teams in Jax (2 ECNL and 1 DA) and three in Tampa (1 ECNL and 2 DA). The population is not big enough to do that well. They need to trim down in those communities IMO...but then you have more travel for the teams there. It is a never ending cycle.
We should be thankful that we have so many good clubs close to us!
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Post by hammertime on Oct 7, 2019 12:22:32 GMT -5
Until a league actually pays attention and cares about cost to play, we are doomed as a male soccer nation. As we all can see, we are being caught in the women's game also. Teams traveling 7+ hours to play a single game by trains, planes, or automobiles is ridiculous on so many levels. It's a horrible use of clubs and parents resources. Agree on this 100%. At least on the girls side there is a even number in FL. Adding Palm Beach to boys made it seven in FL and messed up the travel partners which meant single game weekends with teams going both to and from FL for just one game. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb. Not to mention that Palm Beach is terrible at every age group on the boys side. FL Elite and FKK are going to have a lot easier time qualifying for nationals as they will get to play Armada, Orlando, Tampa and Palm Beach twice while the GA/AL/TN teams only get one W against those teams and have to play each other twice. It's still surprising to me just how bad the ECNL teams are at the clubs that also have DA in FL. I know there is a lot more density in ATL but still a lot of people in FL not to be able to have a quality second team. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 7, 2019 12:22:52 GMT -5
We should be thankful that we have so many good clubs close to us! Right, I think all anyone is saying is that they should be playing EACH OTHER before even considering going down to FL, NC, AL, SC, TN, etc.
Most of the top-10 teams will never play each other except in tournaments. There should absolutely be a league where these teams play each other home-and-home for the pride of Atlanta and spots to play clubs from the above mentioned state's top clubs (by population) in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level showcases. It could be club-based with entire clubs being promoted/relegated.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 7, 2019 15:19:22 GMT -5
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Post by rifle on Oct 7, 2019 16:26:51 GMT -5
Answer = Open pyramid. P/R. Earn your place and play teams on similar level. End “better by declaration”. Prove it.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 7, 2019 16:45:56 GMT -5
And the USSF opened Pandora's box with DA in 2007 just to make their lives scouting easier. ECNL followed suit and we've swirled further round and down the bowl with each passing year. We've even reached the worst of all possible worlds...we have a league with a mere 4 teams requiring a minimum of 5 hours of travel just to play each other. Pandora's box is open, youth soccer is big business and stopping it would take an act of congress.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 7, 2019 17:03:09 GMT -5
We should be thankful that we have so many good clubs close to us! Right, I think all anyone is saying is that they should be playing EACH OTHER before even considering going down to FL, NC, AL, SC, TN, etc.
Most of the top-10 teams will never play each other except in tournaments. There should absolutely be a league where these teams play each other home-and-home for the pride of Atlanta and spots to play clubs from the above mentioned state's top clubs (by population) in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level showcases. It could be club-based with entire clubs being promoted/relegated.
There would just be complaints about your plan as well. At the academy ages I get complaints from parents all of the time about the repetitive nature of our schedule. Tophat, then Tophat North, then Tophat Milton, Concorde, SSA, and so on and so on. We play some of these teams 2 and 3 times in a season PLUS tournaments. So 3-4 times per fall and same again in the spring. There are other teams we play once or never. They try to make the games even so they will only play against certain clubs and certain teams. For the older age groups most of the time there are 6-8 team max that would be competitive against each other week in week out for the best teams. I just think no matter what you do people will complain. |
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Post by GameOfThrow-ins on Oct 7, 2019 18:09:52 GMT -5
Answer = Open pyramid. P/R. Earn your place and play teams on similar level. End “better by declaration”. Prove it. There is no point in harping on P/R for years on end, dude. You must have serious confirmation bias issues to have held this belief for so long. In theory, it’s fantastic. But life is complicated - teams just don’t stay together year after year: players change clubs, move, coaches change clubs, clubs fold, new clubs arise, skill sets of individual players change yearly, focus on development vs. winning, etc. But you want to lock everyone into a completely rigid system that you falsely claim is “open?” This is not Europe. We need solutions that fit our unique circumstances. As good as it sounds, the P/R sound bite solution is fool’s gold. There are three entities involved that mix like peanut butter, Chinese food, and NASCAR, so you’re pissing into the wind with this.Think about what you truly love about this P/R utopia of yours and figure out how to achieve smaller victories! |
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Post by atv on Oct 7, 2019 19:16:57 GMT -5
Wow
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Post by rifle on Oct 7, 2019 21:01:08 GMT -5
Answer = Open pyramid. P/R. Earn your place and play teams on similar level. End “better by declaration”. Prove it. There is no point in harping on P/R for years on end, dude. You must have serious confirmation bias issues to have held this belief for so long. In theory, it’s fantastic. But life is complicated - teams just don’t stay together year after year: players change clubs, move, coaches change clubs, clubs fold, new clubs arise, skill sets of individual players change yearly, focus on development vs. winning, etc. But you want to lock everyone into a completely rigid system that you falsely claim is “open?” This is not Europe. We need solutions that fit our unique circumstances. As good as it sounds, the P/R sound bite solution is fool’s gold. There are three entities involved that mix like peanut butter, Chinese food, and NASCAR, so you’re pissing into the wind with this.Think about what you truly love about this P/R utopia of yours and figure out how to achieve smaller victories! I am this board’s broken record because in our great “land of opportunity”, soccer is presently organized as a caste system. (That’s bad) But awareness is good, and it might just help the next generation. I’m not even certain what “three entities” you are speaking of but I know that most of the USSoccer member clubs are counting on one thing alone: another generation of parents wanting to do what’s best for their kids.. so they can take your money. If you have a kid with potential, help them get out. edit: if you can’t simply ignore what bothers you this much .. Go to profile> edit profile> privacy>block users and simply add my name |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 7, 2019 21:36:04 GMT -5
Right, I think all anyone is saying is that they should be playing EACH OTHER before even considering going down to FL, NC, AL, SC, TN, etc.
Most of the top-10 teams will never play each other except in tournaments. There should absolutely be a league where these teams play each other home-and-home for the pride of Atlanta and spots to play clubs from the above mentioned state's top clubs (by population) in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level showcases. It could be club-based with entire clubs being promoted/relegated.
There would just be complaints about your plan as well. At the academy ages I get complaints from parents all of the time about the repetitive nature of our schedule. Tophat, then Tophat North, then Tophat Milton, Concorde, SSA, and so on and so on. We play some of these teams 2 and 3 times in a season PLUS tournaments. So 3-4 times per fall and same again in the spring. There are other teams we play once or never. They try to make the games even so they will only play against certain clubs and certain teams. For the older age groups most of the time there are 6-8 team max that would be competitive against each other week in week out for the best teams. I just think no matter what you do people will complain. 2-3 times a season? Why not play AFU, GSA, UFA, UFA Norcross, AFC, IAFC, Roswell, etc? Academy schedules are set by the clubs, so that repetitive bias is at your club. Club-based pro/rel is the only way it will work going forward, the only way the clubs would agree with it. Cumulative club points for the season should be used. |
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Post by GameOfThrow-ins on Oct 8, 2019 5:52:29 GMT -5
It doesn’t bother me at all - I just feel bad for you. You’re entertaining in a futile Gilligan’s Island with no hope of rescue kind of way.
Not sure which three entities? Read the article?
US Soccer Federation, US Club Soccer, US Youth Soccer
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 8, 2019 6:35:56 GMT -5
There would just be complaints about your plan as well. At the academy ages I get complaints from parents all of the time about the repetitive nature of our schedule. Tophat, then Tophat North, then Tophat Milton, Concorde, SSA, and so on and so on. We play some of these teams 2 and 3 times in a season PLUS tournaments. So 3-4 times per fall and same again in the spring. There are other teams we play once or never. They try to make the games even so they will only play against certain clubs and certain teams. For the older age groups most of the time there are 6-8 team max that would be competitive against each other week in week out for the best teams. I just think no matter what you do people will complain. 2-3 times a season? Why not play AFU, GSA, UFA, UFA Norcross, AFC, IAFC, Roswell, etc? Academy schedules are set by the clubs, so that repetitive bias is at your club. Club-based pro/rel is the only way it will work going forward, the only way the clubs would agree with it. Cumulative club points for the season should be used. Well I was left some clubs out so as to not make it obvious which club I was at. We do play some of those other clubs you mentioned but not all. Fact is that the top team slaughters small clubs' teams and even AFU. So the club schedulers try to make the games close. They won't schedule some of the smaller clubs against the top team. Even the second team beat some clubs top teams 13-1 etc last year. They try to make even match ups if they can, hence the repetitive nature of our schedule...which was my point. Top teams at big clubs are really only competitive against each other with one to two exceptions outside the big 6. In my older child's age group one of the top NL teams got smashed by ECNL teams at a recent tournament. Same thing happened at the next older age group. Once you get to a certain age it is very, very hard to find good competition for the best of the best hence DA and ECNL. |
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 8, 2019 8:00:40 GMT -5
It doesn’t bother me at all - I just feel bad for you. You’re entertaining in a futile Gilligan’s Island with no hope of rescue kind of way. Not sure which three entities? Read the article? US Soccer Federation, US Club Soccer, US Youth Soccer Not sure why you would feel bad for someone who has hope for a better system. I'd be more apt to feel bad for someone who is resigned to accept the fragmented, broken system we have now. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 8, 2019 8:59:41 GMT -5
riflePlease tell me how to get a kid with potential out of this chaos. I like that you have hope...hope is good. I like that you have a desire for a better system. The problem that I see is that the consumers (parents) cannot fix this system. It has to come from above. You can vote with your money as some would say, but you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. It hurts no one, but you and your child to get out of this system. We all know that better players need to play with and against the best to get better. The DA and ECNL are running based on this desire. It is not optimum because of the travel and the expense and even the time missed from school. The NL system is flawed as well for any age group older than U14. Promotion of a team that then loses 4-5 key players now puts that team in a bad spot. This happens more often as the kids get older. I like P/R for the U13 and U14 because if you do well in the fall you move up in the spring and it is the SAME TEAM! Those that earned it get the reward. As a U15 if you win then it doesn't matter until the next year and there is a lot of turnover....particularly on the girls side where quality players drop out due to changing interests at a high rate. The other problem is the issue of the high school season. It is not at a fixed time across the country. This means the teams are playing each other on club schedules when maybe they aren't at their best. I think that part of the fix for youth soccer would be to make the states all have high school season at the same time. If they did this it would allow for more sensible travel (Georgia ECNL teams could play clubs 3-6 hours away rather than 6-12 hours away). It would help at least...
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 8, 2019 12:02:17 GMT -5
We're way OT here, but on a good discussion. I'm wondering how the NL Piedmont conference will work with the Sunshine conference addition. It appears that the Sunshine conference plays all their games in the spring. I guess they'll be forced to the fall. Frankly, if you keep your high caliber child in a remote location in USYS, and the team starts out in the doldrums at C, they could be stuck there until C is dropped at U18. Or if the team is decent, it could take a couple years (freaking YEARS) to get to the upper echelon of the USYS system. A year is a lifetime for a kid. It would be cool if there was a play-in to fill all the brackets every fall. A few official tournaments in August could help things get seeded and sorted. At least then the bait-and-switch from clubs would be out the window. Also, a team could go from Athena D in May to NL in September. For U13/U14 repeat the process in February. All of the sudden you wouldn't have GA Soccer having to review roster changes to seed brackets and no one uses politics to get into NL, it all happens on the field, earned every time by the CURRENT team (rosters of max 18 set prior to the tournaments). I'd probably put my kid back into the USYS fold for this.
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Post by rocko1989 on Oct 8, 2019 12:41:04 GMT -5
rifle The other problem is the issue of the high school season. It is not at a fixed time across the country. This means the teams are playing each other on club schedules when maybe they aren't at their best. I think that part of the fix for youth soccer would be to make the states all have high school season at the same time. If they did this it would allow for more sensible travel (Georgia ECNL teams could play clubs 3-6 hours away rather than 6-12 hours away). It would help at least... What is your plan to get independent state high school federations all on the same schedule? |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 8, 2019 12:49:35 GMT -5
Probably more of a statement that its an obstacle to having a simplified system. The states would need to understand its an obstacle to the betterment of American soccer also.
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Post by rocko1989 on Oct 8, 2019 13:42:57 GMT -5
Probably more of a statement that its an obstacle to having a simplified system. The states would need to understand its an obstacle to the betterment of American soccer also. While true, what would be the motivation for the high school associations to change things specifically to assist one sport? I think it would be wonderful, however I highly doubt this will ever be the case. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 8, 2019 14:40:50 GMT -5
Possibly to get American football skill players involved? It has to be the most popular field sport behind American football. Seems like there would be conflicts for field space.
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Post by GameOfThrow-ins on Oct 8, 2019 16:41:27 GMT -5
So, there are several competing leagues, limited pro/rel in a small few, individual players attempting to make better teams, club changing to make better teams. Given the system we are in, the tryout system stinks and it’s easy for coaches to be lazy with selection. Players and parents know more about all the kids trying out than the coaches. A small tweak to the current system would be easy: a week long tryout window; no offers until after the final day of tryouts; no mandatory attendance for every tryout session. If you’re going to have a system in which club shopping is the only real chance players have to get promoted, the players have got to be able to shop.
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Post by mistergrinch on Oct 8, 2019 20:35:14 GMT -5
So, there are several competing leagues, limited pro/rel in a small few, individual players attempting to make better teams, club changing to make better teams. Given the system we are in, the tryout system stinks and it’s easy for coaches to be lazy with selection. Players and parents know more about all the kids trying out than the coaches. A small tweak to the current system would be easy: a week long tryout window; no offers until after the final day of tryouts; no mandatory attendance for every tryout session. If you’re going to have a system in which club shopping is the only real chance players have to get promoted, the players have got to be able to shop. This will work about as well as 'no giving a running back a new SUV as a 'loaner' every month while his scooter is in the shop so he can drive around Tuscaloosa' |
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Post by GameOfThrow-ins on Oct 8, 2019 20:54:23 GMT -5
You’re right, but I’d gladly take 2 out of 3.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 9, 2019 11:08:51 GMT -5
Really, coaches shouldn't extend more than 7-10 offers on day 1. That way you don't have to rescind an offer on day 4.
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