quest
Jr. Academy
Posts: 33 
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Post by quest on Oct 6, 2014 6:42:12 GMT -5
Hi all, this is my first thread but have been cruising this forum for a while now. I really enjoy the conversations as I am getting clarification or answers to things that was not clear to me. I have a specific question in regards to U13 Athena A and U14 ECNL. Can an age appropriate U13 who plays and is roster-ed on a U14 ECNL team which is their primary team play down in an U13 Athena A game? Or can player dual roster in this scenario?
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Post by stevieg on Oct 6, 2014 7:37:52 GMT -5
Yes. Happens all the time. Same for any play-up. Happens in academy as well.
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Post by spectator on Oct 6, 2014 8:12:25 GMT -5
The ECNL thing is a little different than your average play up. Here is my issue with ECNL club teams:
The club with the ECNL team still has other level teams and is subject to Georgia Soccer rules. However, ECNL has their own rules and bylaws. Because the two are so separate, too many ECNL clubs will either double roster or pull 'down' ECNL players to any level Athena team since GA Soccer doesn't specifically state they cannot. Logically speaking, an ECNL club holds tryouts for all their teams and you'd think the better stronger, more talented players would be the ones making the ECNL team then the next group is the Athena A and so on down the line. If GA soccer doesn't allow an Athena A player to play on an Athena B or C team, why do they allow an ECNL player to play 'down'? ECNL clubs can manipulate the system by pulling their top players to any level Athena team to ensure those teams keep their placement or move up. I get that - the club wants to be able to say they have the highest level teams in the age groups - blah blah blah. But who gets hurt here - the kid on the Athena roster who sits the bench while the ECNL player gets the playing time. Don't get me started on State Cup rosters - kids who've been on the roster all year will stay home because the club put ECNL players on those rosters.
How hard is it for someone at GA Soccer to wake up and realize this is hurting the game and players? Or are they just so indebted to the larger clubs with ECNL that they look the other way? I'm not dissing ECNL - it's a great program for the girls that make it - but play ECNL not Athena if you are on an ECNL team. Shame on the club and coaches for playing both sides and essentially cheating to win games - and cheating the players they displace out of their playing time and development.
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Post by jash on Oct 6, 2014 8:18:10 GMT -5
How hard is it for someone at GA Soccer to wake up and realize this is hurting the game and players? Or are they just so indebted to the larger clubs with ECNL that they look the other way? I'm not dissing ECNL - it's a great program for the girls that make it - but play ECNL not Athena if you are on an ECNL team. Shame on the club and coaches for playing both sides and essentially cheating to win games - and cheating the players they displace out of their playing time and development. There are far too many things in youth soccer that are technically legal but obviously ethically wrong. The problem is we have too many people with bad motivations making some of the decisions (at the club level). It always comes back to 'win, win, win' and if you follow it to the ultimate conclusion that is what the parents are demanding. |
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Post by spectator on Oct 6, 2014 8:31:54 GMT -5
How hard is it for someone at GA Soccer to wake up and realize this is hurting the game and players? Or are they just so indebted to the larger clubs with ECNL that they look the other way? I'm not dissing ECNL - it's a great program for the girls that make it - but play ECNL not Athena if you are on an ECNL team. Shame on the club and coaches for playing both sides and essentially cheating to win games - and cheating the players they displace out of their playing time and development. There are far too many things in youth soccer that are technically legal but obviously ethically wrong. The problem is we have too many people with bad motivations making some of the decisions (at the club level). It always comes back to 'win, win, win' and if you follow it to the ultimate conclusion that is what the parents are demanding. Then it's time for the parents of the displaced players and the parents on the teams where the ECNL players are the ringers brought down to beat to start demanding the ethics be enforced. In the end, it's also bad for the Athena team that used the ECNL players to maintain placement or advance - they're obviously not of the level they're trying to keep or attain with the players rostered - you're hurting those players and players on teams that are fully rostered with the right level of talent. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 8:41:01 GMT -5
not sure what ga soccer can do with the encl issue, its outside their control, they do not see those rosters.
they could create a rule that if a girl is rostered on an ecnl team, she cannot 'ever' be rostered on an athena team as well.
i also don't think kids should be allowed to play up if rostered on younger teams. ie u13 classic 1s or athena As playing player passing to u14 teams.
see it too often u13 and u14 teams using their top 1-3 players from the agegroup below. I see it to often where 2nd team players in an age group aren't given a shot and the coaches go to the age group below.
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quest
Jr. Academy
Posts: 33
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Post by quest on Oct 6, 2014 8:55:30 GMT -5
Yeah, it sure doesn't seem fair. I asked my daughter this morning to pic out players she played against from the ECNL roster and she picked out four which could be wrong but I for sure saw two. Just one ECNL player in an Athena game is a huge advantage let alone two or more but we actually did pretty well. I guess that's the way it goes.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 6, 2014 9:04:17 GMT -5
so the ecnl players that typically also play athena ball. is it usually the top players or the girls that arent' getting as much playing time on the ecnl teams?
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Post by spectator on Oct 6, 2014 9:24:13 GMT -5
so the ecnl players that typically also play athena ball. is it usually the top players or the girls that arent' getting as much playing time on the ecnl teams? Probably in some cases but if that player is a 'bubble' player for ECNL/Athena A, they need to play where they are rostered regardless. There are bubble Athena A/Athena B players who don't start or get as much playing time as a true Athena A player - they're not allowed to go play Athena B just so they get more playing time. The ECNL players I've seen when we've played Athena A teams of those clubs have been very skilled, very fast and usually much bigger than the regular Athena A players. So yes, I'll concede that ECNL players are most likely better than your run of the mill Athena A players. Good for them - congrats on the skills - stay on your own damn team!!! Our team manager has been very upfront and let us know when ECNL players on on the roster of those teams - she's told us the numbers - although, when you see two girls on the field wearing the same number, it's pretty clear they've got guests not the regular roster! And I agree with what was said above: This is EXACTLY what GA Soccer needs to do - but they won't. |
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Post by fan on Oct 6, 2014 14:21:01 GMT -5
I find this "problem" greatly exaggerated most of the time. There are coaches and clubs that use ECNL players in Athena games from time-to-time. I don't see it happen a great deal and I often find that the player a team manager or coach is referring to isn't actually an ECNL player. Not to say that it doesn't happen of course. Some clubs do it a great deal. In my experience, AFU uses ECNL players in lots of Athena games while Concorde and GSA typically don't do so very often. State Cup is a whole other thing as every club scrambles to get as many RPL spots as they can for recruiting purposes. On the boys' side, this is not really a problem at all. I've had many team managers tell me that so and so kid on the other team is from the Development Academy team. Since I know those rosters and kids pretty well, I know that it is almost never the case. On the whole, coaches and clubs (even the ones who are routinely villified) are far more ethical about this kind of thing than the average parent and observer gives them credit for. It seems to be pretty common to roster a few of the top U13s on both the U14 ECNL team and the U13 top team. CF and GSA each have a few this year. I don't know about AFU this year but last year they had 6 of their U13s rostered on U14 ECNL too. Granted most didn't play more than a couple games for ECNL but some played regularly with them. This isn't ECNL related but wasn't one of Tophat's teams kicked out of the national championships last season for illegal rostering of players? Maybe that will cause everyone to be a little more cautious. |
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Post by stevieg on Oct 6, 2014 14:35:22 GMT -5
I find this "problem" greatly exaggerated most of the time. There are coaches and clubs that use ECNL players in Athena games from time-to-time. I don't see it happen a great deal and I often find that the player a team manager or coach is referring to isn't actually an ECNL player. Not to say that it doesn't happen of course. Some clubs do it a great deal. In my experience, AFU uses ECNL players in lots of Athena games while Concorde and GSA typically don't do so very often. State Cup is a whole other thing as every club scrambles to get as many RPL spots as they can for recruiting purposes. On the boys' side, this is not really a problem at all. I've had many team managers tell me that so and so kid on the other team is from the Development Academy team. Since I know those rosters and kids pretty well, I know that it is almost never the case. On the whole, coaches and clubs (even the ones who are routinely villified) are far more ethical about this kind of thing than the average parent and observer gives them credit for. It seems to be pretty common to roster a few of the top U13s on both the U14 ECNL team and the U13 top team. CF and GSA each have a few this year. I don't know about AFU this year but last year they had 6 of their U13s rostered on U14 ECNL too. Granted most didn't play more than a couple games for ECNL but some played regularly with them. This isn't ECNL related but wasn't one of Tophat's teams kicked out of the national championships last season for illegal rostering of players? Maybe that will cause everyone to be a little more cautious. I believe it was the U14s who were kicked out because they qualified automatically for Nationals (without playing at regionals) based on winning the National League, so some of their players played up on the U15s at regionals, which was apparently not allowed. The ironic thing was that the team that took their place (Jacksonville) at Nationals won the National Championship. |
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Post by lovethegame on Oct 6, 2014 16:09:11 GMT -5
I do think that playing ECNL players whose primary team is the ECNL team on a club's second or third team, is wrong. Ecnl teams can have up to 30 on their roster, with a limit of 18 for each game. From what I've read, ECNL intends that some of the girls be included in the player pool and brought up to play when needed. It's done to give opportunities to hard working players who may have developed since tryouts. So, while a player may be on an ECNL roster, it doesn't mean that's their primary team. In fact, some players rostered for ECNL never play and ECNL game.
I don't know how this is controlled since you are dealing with two different leagues, with each having their own game cards. I guess it would have to come from Georgia Soccer or USYSA. Ultimately, I wish the clubs would just do the right thing. It's wrong for girls to lose playing time on their own team because the coach wants to bring in a ringer. Ultimately, the parents and players on the Athena A team need to let the club know that it isn't right. Too often,as parents, we are silent because we are afraid that complaining could negatively affect our child.
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quest
Jr. Academy
Posts: 33
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Post by quest on Oct 7, 2014 6:45:04 GMT -5
I do think that playing ECNL players, whose primary team is the ECNL team, is wrong. Correct me if I am wrong but only three or so clubs in Georgia are ECNL this gives a disadvantage to 30 plus non-ECNL clubs. The better players leave their club to play for these ECNL clubs, now the non-ECNL clubs need to rebuild and play against their former elite players. To allow this to happen is allowing these clubs to stack the teams to get the end result which is to manipulate the tables. |
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Post by stevieg on Oct 7, 2014 7:59:36 GMT -5
I do think that playing ECNL players, whose primary team is the ECNL team, is wrong. Correct me if I am wrong but only three or so clubs in Georgia are ECNL this gives a disadvantage to 30 plus non-ECNL clubs. The better players leave their club to play for these ECNL clubs, now the non-ECNL clubs need to rebuild and play against their former elite players. To allow this to happen is allowing these clubs to stack the teams to get the end result which is to manipulate the tables. You are correct. So, why doesn't Georgia Soccer allow ECNL teams to play in state cup? That would fix the practice of using ECNL players to stack Athena A and B teams wouldn't it? And it would let teams like TopHat and UFA test themselves against the other top teams in the state. |
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Post by dreaddy on Oct 7, 2014 15:47:55 GMT -5
Banning ECNL players from playing on Athena teams is not as easy as it may sound. Most don't understand the real structure of all of this.
First, ECNL is a program of US Club Soccer. Athena is a program of Georgia Soccer who is affiliated to US Youth Soccer. US Youth and US Club are both members of US Soccer, but are not in any shape or form related to each other. Consequently, US Youth considers a player registered with US Club an unregistered player. A player could play Athena for your club and play ECNL for a different club. It's rare, but it has happened.
If you are wondering where Premier League and National League fit in, these are US Youth programs so Georgia Soccer can make rules for those players as long as the rules don't conflict with the US Youth rules.
Georgia can't make a rule to exclude an ECNL player because they have no jurisdiction over ECNL players. If they made that kind of rule it would probably not hold up on appeal to USSF anyway.
There is a similar situation on the boys side with the USSF DA players, but that was solved by the USSF. They don't allow DA players to play for club teams outside of DA. The few who may register on a Classic team have to quit DA first and can't go back (at least not until the following year). This one little difference (one of many, actually) makes me respect DA but despise ECNL. Only ECNL can prevent players from double registering, but they have no inclination to do so.
USSF DA is there for development and have a rigid structure and syllabus. ECNL is there for the money and allows teams and coaches to do pretty much what they want as long as the fees are paid.
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Post by jash on Oct 7, 2014 16:07:12 GMT -5
dreaddy, what would stop Georgia Soccer for making a rule that players rostered to Athena teams cannot play for any club teams outside of Georgia Soccer (Athena)? If DA can make such a rule, why can't GA Soccer?
I think you were trying to explain it, but I admit I don't get the nuances.
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Post by stevieg on Oct 7, 2014 16:37:42 GMT -5
I think the difference is that ECNL would have to make that rule in order for it to be enforced. If GA Soccer does it, then it probably won't work because they have no jurisdiction over ECNL players. I agree that it is a problem, but ECNL isn't going anywhere, so US Club Soccer should probably try to put some reasonable guidelines in place to prevent the double-rostering.
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Post by silverback on Oct 7, 2014 17:08:02 GMT -5
I have often wondered why DA doesn't just expand to include the girls and have the girls aligned with USSF as well. If this happened, then all you have to do is have TH join the alliance. Could you imagine the powerhouse teams GA would have on the girls side? Pretty scary!
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Post by jash on Oct 7, 2014 20:13:48 GMT -5
I think the difference is that ECNL would have to make that rule in order for it to be enforced. If GA Soccer does it, then it probably won't work because they have no jurisdiction over ECNL players. I agree that it is a problem, but ECNL isn't going anywhere, so US Club Soccer should probably try to put some reasonable guidelines in place to prevent the double-rostering. I still don't get it. GA Soccer doesn't need jurisdiction over ECNL players. GA Soccer has jurisdiction over GA Soccer players. So if you want to play GA Soccer, you can't play ECNL. If they find you rostered on an ECNL team, you are ineligible to play GA Soccer, and any GA Soccer games you were dual-rostered are forfeited. That stops the dual rostering, right? |
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Post by lovethegame on Oct 8, 2014 5:26:21 GMT -5
I don't have an issue with the dual rostering. A player on the second team should have the opportunity to play up on the club's ECNL team. Further, each ECNL team can have two "discovery players". These players are rostered and play basically full time for another club. It's meant to give players living far from an Ecnl club access to playing Ecnl. This happens more than you think. Girls fly in or drive long distances to play for an Ecnl team. They rarely practice with the team. Over time I've seen a player from Florida playing in Texas and one from Colorado in California. I've seen players traveling four to five hours together to their home field.
The problem I see is when a club rosters one of their top Ecnl players on a lower team within the clubs just to help the team win. That's not right, and I have no idea why parents say yes to this. It certainly shouldn't be happening at State Cup. A club does it to help win a spot for their second team in the Premier League. But, that team won't be able to consistently rely on Ecnl players in the fall, so a team makes it to the Premier League and finds it difficult to compete. Plus, the idea that a player stays home and doesn't play with their own team while the club takes an Ecnl player is just wrong. There is no rule preventing the club from doing it, but it's an ethical line I wish clubs wouldn't cross.
Ecnl isn't going to make a rule that the players can play in no other league. With discovery players, the league has intentionally allowed it. Plus, the rosters rules are set up to allow a larger player pool with the idea that some girls will play up at times. I don't have an issue with this. My issue is with the top players playing on a lower team simply to help that team win. I don't know , the answer, but it would be good to see clubs make the decision that it's not something they are going to do.
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Post by SoccerMom on Oct 8, 2014 9:12:06 GMT -5
I have often wondered why DA doesn't just expand to include the girls and have the girls aligned with USSF as well. If this happened, then all you have to do is have TH join the alliance. Could you imagine the powerhouse teams GA would have on the girls side? Pretty scary! I have heard that this is in the works to have DA in Georgia include girls. |
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Post by dreaddy on Oct 8, 2014 11:34:13 GMT -5
Didn't want to be this blunt about it, but as with most things... follow the money!
Dual rostered player means fees are paid to Ga Soccer & US Youth as well as US Club. Not to mention paying USSF twice! Win for everybody!
Ga Soccer can't make the rule to exclude dual rostered player because US Youth nor USSF would back it. USSF limits participation of the DA players for development reasons but US Club is all about the money, so they won't limit their players.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 8, 2014 13:24:49 GMT -5
I have often wondered why DA doesn't just expand to include the girls and have the girls aligned with USSF as well. If this happened, then all you have to do is have TH join the alliance. Could you imagine the powerhouse teams GA would have on the girls side? Pretty scary! I have heard that this is in the works to have DA in Georgia include girls. I guess their are rumors of DA for girls then? It's just crazy that Concorde is the only club in the state with both DA and ecnl. It would be interesting to look at all DA clubs to see how many have ecnl also. |
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Post by SoccerMom on Oct 8, 2014 13:30:12 GMT -5
Personally i dont care for ECNL, DA would be nice because the costs are not as outrageous. The rumor is there....so I guess we wait and hope. If DA for girls happens, I dont see too bright a future for ECNL.
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Post by jash on Oct 8, 2014 13:34:38 GMT -5
Didn't want to be this blunt about it, but as with most things... follow the money! Dual rostered player means fees are paid to Ga Soccer & US Youth as well as US Club. Not to mention paying USSF twice! Win for everybody! Ga Soccer can't make the rule to exclude dual rostered player because US Youth nor USSF would back it. USSF limits participation of the DA players for development reasons but US Club is all about the money, so they won't limit their players. Sorry to force you to be blunt. Now I get it. And that's kinda sad. |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 8, 2014 13:39:17 GMT -5
wonder if there are any states that do take a strong stance on this though? probably not.
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Post by lovethegame on Oct 8, 2014 14:05:03 GMT -5
wonder if there are any states that do take a strong stance on this though? probably not. I doubt it, but I would imagine there are clubs where having Ecnl players play on other teams just isn't done. i wonder if this happens in Southern California and Texas where there are many competitive teams in both leagues. A player on a USYSA team might not feel as beholden to a club where they lose playing time to an Ecnl player. I dont one know the answer, but if a club decides they are going to do this, there is nothing to stop them at this point. I just can't believe the parents on the non-Ecnl team tolerate this. If those with stronger players are okay because it doesn't affect their child, and they are more about winning than what's fair, then shame on them. |
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Post by lovethegame on Oct 8, 2014 14:09:27 GMT -5
Didn't want to be this blunt about it, but as with most things... follow the money! Dual rostered player means fees are paid to Ga Soccer & US Youth as well as US Club. Not to mention paying USSF twice! Win for everybody! Ga Soccer can't make the rule to exclude dual rostered player because US Youth nor USSF would back it. USSF limits participation of the DA players for development reasons but US Club is all about the money, so they won't limit their players. I'm not arguing because I don't know. But, why do you say US Club is all about the money but not USYSA? |
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Post by lovethegame on Oct 8, 2014 14:18:29 GMT -5
Personally i dont care for ECNL, DA would be nice because the costs are not as outrageous. The rumor is there....so I guess we wait and hope. If DA for girls happens, I dont see too bright a future for ECNL. If DA for girls is free, then it would affect Ecnl. I think the demise of Ecnl has been predicted by many for quite awhile, yet the league gets stronger. I have always said I have mixed feelings about Ecnl, but it's accomplished a whole lot in the five years it's been in existence. No doubt it is costly, but it's probably costs about the same to play on an RPL team that plays a few showcases and at Disney. |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 8, 2014 14:22:41 GMT -5
i'm not a high school guy, so 10 months a year soccer on the girls side would be nice....
(not saying my daughter is good enough anyway, but not looking forward to next spring when she has no club soccer)
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