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Post by bananarama on Jul 28, 2024 9:05:48 GMT -5
Freddy Adu wrote:
“Being fascinated with the big/strong/fast athlete and not actual soccer players and the way our youth system is set up will always be a HUGE reason we are where we are in international soccer. This has to change for us to be consistently competitive.”
I have to say after several years of my son in our system, I find this to be more than true. What has been your experience with “bigger players are better” and what experiences outside our typical US youth leagues have you found most helpful to your child’s true football development?
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Post by lajolla39 on Jul 28, 2024 10:18:09 GMT -5
I think what's happening is US Soccer recruiters have so many to choose from that they pick large amounts of biggest and fastest players thinking 1 or 2 will end up being talented.
Other countries have a smaller number of players to choose from so they run everyone through the same training to see who rises to the top regardless of size.
Also other countries have better training at younger ages.
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Post by terimakasih12 on Jul 28, 2024 23:05:01 GMT -5
Freddy Adu wrote: “Being fascinated with the big/strong/fast athlete and not actual soccer players and the way our youth system is set up will always be a HUGE reason we are where we are in international soccer. This has to change for us to be consistently competitive.” I have to say after several years of my son in our system, I find this to be more than true. What has been your experience with “bigger players are better” and what experiences outside our typical US youth leagues have you found most helpful to your child’s true football development? I agree with Adu's point but I'll say this- a lot of national team players in Men's football are fairly tall. Take a look at the England National team: England 2024 Squad. Foden is the only player below 5'8. Even Spain (a team that many say prioritizes technical ability over size), has several players in the 5'10 - 6'3 range: Spain 2024 Squad. Size and physical ability must account for something. My experience is that coaches prioritize bigger kids at the younger ages here in Atlanta. For example, most top teams my son's Academy team went against last year had several huge kids. Some of them looked nearly 15 despite being in elementary school. That said, there are plenty of exceptions. I’ve seen several kids on top teams who were smaller and technical. Someone obviously noticed them. I’ve also seen that more and more youth teams in Atlanta play technical, possession-oriented football compared to 20 years ago. This makes me believe that we are trending in the right direction. |
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Post by rifle on Jul 29, 2024 7:17:39 GMT -5
We have a youth system comprised of competing leagues that don’t co-mingle. Rather than competing clubs that have to compete to earn their place. It’s a money first system rather than competition first.
We have a professional system that is the same except with cost controls that lead to mediocrity. And a feckless federation that is infected by one particular entity that has stacked the deck against any substantive change because it might challenge the protected class.
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Post by atlnoleg on Jul 29, 2024 8:19:50 GMT -5
Freddy Adu wrote: “Being fascinated with the big/strong/fast athlete and not actual soccer players and the way our youth system is set up will always be a HUGE reason we are where we are in international soccer. This has to change for us to be consistently competitive.” I have to say after several years of my son in our system, I find this to be more than true. What has been your experience with “bigger players are better” and what experiences outside our typical US youth leagues have you found most helpful to your child’s true football development? I agree with Adu's point but I'll say this- a lot of national team players in Men's football are fairly tall. Take a look at the England National team: England 2024 Squad. Foden is the only player below 5'8. Even Spain (a team that many say prioritizes technical ability over size), has several players in the 5'10 - 6'3 range: Spain 2024 Squad. Size and physical ability must account for something. My experience is that coaches prioritize bigger kids at the younger ages here in Atlanta. For example, most top teams my son's Academy team went against last year had several huge kids. Some of them looked nearly 15 despite being in elementary school. That said, there are plenty of exceptions. I’ve seen several kids on top teams who were smaller and technical. Someone obviously noticed them. I’ve also seen that more and more youth teams in Atlanta play technical, possession-oriented football compared to 20 years ago. This makes me believe that we are trending in the right direction. I agree that's it's not as cut and dry as folks make it. I could easily use it as an excuse for my very small for his age son, but I have seen it really depends on the coach's preference--even within a club it can vary. In his club, for example, the ECNL coach of his age group clearly prioritized size and speed over technical ability. However, the age down looks the complete opposite. That coach had access to more talent than my kid's age group, as there were multiple successful top teams at the pre-ECNL level to select from. But at least from the eyeball test, it appears he focused on skills over size. That team consists of some of the tiniest kids I've ever seen at the ECNL level, but they are very technically advanced. They have maybe one or two kids who are bigger than average. Same club, different philosophies. |
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Post by bolo on Jul 29, 2024 11:15:23 GMT -5
Freddy Adu wrote: “Being fascinated with the big/strong/fast athlete and not actual soccer players and the way our youth system is set up will always be a HUGE reason we are where we are in international soccer. This has to change for us to be consistently competitive.” I have to say after several years of my son in our system, I find this to be more than true. What has been your experience with “bigger players are better” and what experiences outside our typical US youth leagues have you found most helpful to your child’s true football development? I agree with Adu's point but I'll say this- a lot of national team players in Men's football are fairly tall. Take a look at the England National team: England 2024 Squad. Foden is the only player below 5'8. Even Spain (a team that many say prioritizes technical ability over size), has several players in the 5'10 - 6'3 range: Spain 2024 Squad. Size and physical ability must account for something. My experience is that coaches prioritize bigger kids at the younger ages here in Atlanta. For example, most top teams my son's Academy team went against last year had several huge kids. Some of them looked nearly 15 despite being in elementary school. That said, there are plenty of exceptions. I’ve seen several kids on top teams who were smaller and technical. Someone obviously noticed them. I’ve also seen that more and more youth teams in Atlanta play technical, possession-oriented football compared to 20 years ago. This makes me believe that we are trending in the right direction. I hope we can all agree that being big, fast, & strong shouldn't inherently be seen almost as a negative, in soccer or pretty much any other sport. Some seem to want to denigrate those more physically gifted players as "just" better athletes, who otherwise would have no place on a soccer pitch. But the fact is, being fast in particular can be a huge benefit in soccer. Size & strength can be too. And that's especially true at the younger ages, when bodies are still developing. The goal for coaches- and what could define their success as a coach- is being able to turn those "just athletes" into well-rounded players. But I certainly don't fault them for trying with those type of athletes. |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Jul 29, 2024 12:10:11 GMT -5
the advantages bigger kids have at younger ages is transcendent. those ages set the table for the kids youth future, being a late grower is a recipe for disaster in the US soccer world.
forget it, and dont' get me started all those big kids get caught, and when they get caught it's ugly, because just running vertical no longer works.
you have to be a multi dimensional player and have more strengths then just athleticism in soccer.
most clubs will never be patient with the smaller waiting to grow cohort, they will just bring in outside players, because those players are forgotten about and most parents, can't see the benefit of the kids playing on a 2nd or 3rd team at u9-u12 etc. It's a viscous circle that needs stability at club leadership, coaches and parents to buy in --- very very very few clubs have this.
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Post by terimakasih12 on Jul 29, 2024 14:32:33 GMT -5
I agree with Adu's point but I'll say this- a lot of national team players in Men's football are fairly tall. Take a look at the England National team: England 2024 Squad. Foden is the only player below 5'8. Even Spain (a team that many say prioritizes technical ability over size), has several players in the 5'10 - 6'3 range: Spain 2024 Squad. Size and physical ability must account for something. My experience is that coaches prioritize bigger kids at the younger ages here in Atlanta. For example, most top teams my son's Academy team went against last year had several huge kids. Some of them looked nearly 15 despite being in elementary school. That said, there are plenty of exceptions. I’ve seen several kids on top teams who were smaller and technical. Someone obviously noticed them. I’ve also seen that more and more youth teams in Atlanta play technical, possession-oriented football compared to 20 years ago. This makes me believe that we are trending in the right direction. I hope we can all agree that being big, fast, & strong shouldn't inherently be seen almost as a negative, in soccer or pretty much any other sport. Some seem to want to denigrate those more physically gifted players as "just" better athletes, who otherwise would have no place on a soccer pitch. But the fact is, being fast in particular can be a huge benefit in soccer. Size & strength can be too. And that's especially true at the younger ages, when bodies are still developing. The goal for coaches- and what could define their success as a coach- is being able to turn those "just athletes" into well-rounded players. But I certainly don't fault them for trying with those type of athletes. I definitely agree it isn’t inherently negative to be fast and strong. I think it is a huge positive if a player has these attributes and technical ability. I wish more American players were as big as Jozy Altidore and as technically gifted as Kevin De Bruyne. Unfortunately, the focus on the biggest players can lead to coaches overlooking other players who catch up by U15 or U16. By then, the overlooked players have little chance of getting on a top team. |
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Post by rpsoccer on Jul 29, 2024 15:55:02 GMT -5
We are at Mexico, on vacations, my kid got invited to play in a local tournament. One thing that I noticed is that kids in Mexico play soccer at all times, at school during recess (pickup), after school before going home (pickup), or at a school tournament. Then, they go to practice with their club 4 to 5 times per week, and play indoor soccer or 7v7 during weekdays, on weekends they play 3+ matches either with their club or, family/friends team, or if they are good they get invited as guest players to other teams. Some of these games are against older players, 14 year olds going against players in their 20s or 30s. Then, you can see those 14 years old players with an impressive soccer IQ, they play all the time non-stop.
Probably they lack in physicality, but they compensate with playing time. By the way, there is nothing like ECNL, NPL, SCCL, etc., the best kids get recruited into LigaMX teams academies, or they play and train with local teams and then tryout to get into any of the LigaMX academies.
The coach of the team that invited my kid, told me that, -your kid has the skills just lacks playing time-. Just as a reference, this is my kid schedule in the US, 3 practices with the club team, 1 day speed and agility, 1 day futsal or private session, one (or 2 games) per weekend. After this experience, I will start looking around for pickup games during weekends.
I guess, that most probably the only sport in the US with the same level of playing time, as soccer in Mexico, is basketball.
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Post by playfromtheback on Jul 30, 2024 8:33:30 GMT -5
I think the other thing that gets overlooked unfortunately is where soccer stands in the US and how many other youth sports you are competing against. While to most of us on this board I would think soccer is the first choice of sport win reality in the US that isn't the case. Soccer falls behind football, basketball, and baseball in this country.
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Post by lajolla39 on Jul 30, 2024 8:54:37 GMT -5
We are at Mexico, on vacations, my kid got invited to play in a local tournament. One thing that I noticed is that kids in Mexico play soccer at all times, at school during recess (pickup), after school before going home (pickup), or at a school tournament. Then, they go to practice with their club 4 to 5 times per week, and play indoor soccer or 7v7 during weekdays, on weekends they play 3+ matches either with their club or, family/friends team, or if they are good they get invited as guest players to other teams. Some of these games are against older players, 14 year olds going against players in their 20s or 30s. Then, you can see those 14 years old players with an impressive soccer IQ, they play all the time non-stop. Probably they lack in physicality, but they compensate with playing time. By the way, there is nothing like ECNL, NPL, SCCL, etc., the best kids get recruited into LigaMX teams academies, or they play and train with local teams and then tryout to get into any of the LigaMX academies. The coach of the team that invited my kid, told me that, -your kid has the skills just lacks playing time-. Just as a reference, this is my kid schedule in the US, 3 practices with the club team, 1 day speed and agility, 1 day futsal or private session, one (or 2 games) per weekend. After this experience, I will start looking around for pickup games during weekends. I guess, that most probably the only sport in the US with the same level of playing time, as soccer in Mexico, is basketball. Most places with a large latin community function exactly as you describe reguarding soccer. They also tend to setup their own local leagues. The problem in the US as you identified. This is not where college or pro coaches are looking for talent. Even youth competitive coachs tend to ignore these types of players because they don't pay big $$$ for soccer. Sometimes you see these type of players on MLS Acadamy teams. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective America is dominated by pay to play leagues |
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Post by randomparent on Jul 30, 2024 10:28:56 GMT -5
Freddy Adu wrote: “Being fascinated with the big/strong/fast athlete and not actual soccer players and the way our youth system is set up will always be a HUGE reason we are where we are in international soccer. This has to change for us to be consistently competitive.” I have to say after several years of my son in our system, I find this to be more than true. What has been your experience with “bigger players are better” and what experiences outside our typical US youth leagues have you found most helpful to your child’s true football development? I get annoyed with some of the parents of tall kids at U10/11/12 and the coaches that pick them. While not all, the ones that just have average skills and mom/dad run around like they are the new soccer experts because their kid has a foot on everyone else. I have enjoyed over the years these same parents by u15 try to explain away why jimmy is no longer on the top team, how he wants to play other sports, blah blah excuseville when their height is no longer a huge advantage. As to why I think we are not as successful as the thread moved too - - Most kids that play soccer at a high level in the USA come from families with money, and with that means options. So the kid would love to go pro sure, but ultimately eh they can go to college and become a dentist no worries. Instead of playing soccer on an off night, mom and dad may have them a tutor for Geometry. - It appears to me that in most sports (including soccer around the world) it is the kids with no options, that creates the most successful players. - In the US, kids with no options generally play other sports. If you were to point out exceptions I would agree, I am just speaking generally. There are of course a myriad of other problems we have, but I am sure other countries have their own issues. |
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Post by rifle on Jul 30, 2024 12:08:48 GMT -5
There is no question that physical gifts are beneficial. That’s how a star becomes a superstar ala Cristiano or Mbappe. Athletic freaks with enormous work rates and talent. A nearly unstoppable combination.
USA falls behind when lazy coaches take big kids at age 12 and exploit their window of opportunity, using the early puberty kids to win games. Nothing at all wrong with trying to win games, but using “that kid” and his/her physical advantage to win games rather than training a generation of players has consequences.
But limiting the opportunity to only kids that can afford club soccer is a lot worse.
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Post by gasoccer99 on Jul 30, 2024 21:53:21 GMT -5
This is a dumb take. If I’m a coach…..give me the “big, strong, fast athlete” over the “short, weak, slow” every single time.
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Post by rifle on Jul 31, 2024 10:05:51 GMT -5
This is a dumb take. If I’m a coach…..give me the “big, strong, fast athlete” over the “short, weak, slow” every single time. Duh. But the topic is why US men’s soccer lags. What’s your explanation? |
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Post by atlantagray on Jul 31, 2024 11:09:29 GMT -5
This is a dumb take. If I’m a coach…..give me the “big, strong, fast athlete” over the “short, weak, slow” every single time. This sort of thinking is a big part of the reason our USWNT have been caught up to and why our men have struggled. Our women were all bigger faster stronger (and, women played soccer in the usa, which is another story.) Now everyone is bigger faster stronger, and we're just now starting to realize the need to select for skill along with, and maybe even before, size. In the past, being just tall was good enough to be a decent basketball player. Shawn Bradley, Manut Bol and the likes played in an era where the tallest of players were serviceable in the NBA even with little to no skill outside of defensive presence. If teams prioritized for players like that now rather than for prioritizing for skill and height, that team would be passed by as well. It's not a difficult concept to understand if you can understand it in other sports like basketball. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jul 31, 2024 12:34:50 GMT -5
Pick up games are just not a thing in a lot of places. It is hard to find them. They are so helpful for kids, but also you must be careful of overuse/overtraining. Other sports can help kids too. I think balance is needed.
also think we are lacking in our phys Ed now in the US compared to when we were kids and our recess. Schools are cutting things for budget and liability. My kids used to play some soccer during recess and they stopped them from playing because it got too rough and they were worried about injuries. Same thing when they played pick up basketball. Got ridiculous.
Also there used to be 3v3 tournaments all summer here in Georgia every weekend. They were basically like pick up games. They did not permit coaching from the parents or the coaches except at half time or during subs if they were young. It was great! My kids loved it and it was the best year of growth of skills and confidence that I saw. Just game awareness.
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Post by atlantagray on Jul 31, 2024 12:56:32 GMT -5
Pick up games are just not a thing in a lot of places. It is hard to find them. They are so helpful for kids, but also you must be careful of overuse/overtraining. Other sports can help kids too. I think balance is needed. also think we are lacking in our phys Ed now in the US compared to when we were kids and our recess. Schools are cutting things for budget and liability. My kids used to play some soccer during recess and they stopped them from playing because it got too rough and they were worried about injuries. Same thing when they played pick up basketball. Got ridiculous. Also there used to be 3v3 tournaments all summer here in Georgia every weekend. They were basically like pick up games. They did not permit coaching from the parents or the coaches except at half time or during subs if they were young. It was great! My kids loved it and it was the best year of growth of skills and confidence that I saw. Just game awareness. very cool- are these still around or do you have links to any of the orgs? |
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Post by newguy on Jul 31, 2024 17:31:01 GMT -5
Pick up games are just not a thing in a lot of places. It is hard to find them. They are so helpful for kids, but also you must be careful of overuse/overtraining. Other sports can help kids too. I think balance is needed. also think we are lacking in our phys Ed now in the US compared to when we were kids and our recess. Schools are cutting things for budget and liability. My kids used to play some soccer during recess and they stopped them from playing because it got too rough and they were worried about injuries. Same thing when they played pick up basketball. Got ridiculous. Also there used to be 3v3 tournaments all summer here in Georgia every weekend. They were basically like pick up games. They did not permit coaching from the parents or the coaches except at half time or during subs if they were young. It was great! My kids loved it and it was the best year of growth of skills and confidence that I saw. Just game awareness. very cool- are these still around or do you have links to any of the orgs? The SincSports app is a good spot to look. Summer is over but it looks like Ambush have a 3v3 tournament this weekend. |
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Post by datrain on Aug 1, 2024 11:20:58 GMT -5
There is no question that physical gifts are beneficial. That’s how a star becomes a superstar ala Cristiano or Mbappe. Athletic freaks with enormous work rates and talent. A nearly unstoppable combination. USA falls behind when lazy coaches take big kids at age 12 and exploit their window of opportunity, using the early puberty kids to win games. Nothing at all wrong with trying to win games, but using “that kid” and his/her physical advantage to win games rather than training a generation of players has consequences. But limiting the opportunity to only kids that can afford club soccer is a lot worse. 1000% correct. My boys have played in NY and Atlanta. The emphasis on big athletes in Georgia is far greater than elsewhere. My son’s former coach, who coached academy at Porto and West Brom, was always astonished by the region’s overemphasis on size over skill and strategic game recognition. Top US talents like Diego Rossi, Massimo Carizzo, Zidane Yanez , Damian Rouse and many others in NY would be relegated to 2nd teams in Atlanta because they are not big. We lose a lot of kids because there no uniformity in talent identification. “Talent evaluators” here are largely poor at their job. |
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Post by lajolla39 on Aug 1, 2024 13:34:24 GMT -5
There is no question that physical gifts are beneficial. That’s how a star becomes a superstar ala Cristiano or Mbappe. Athletic freaks with enormous work rates and talent. A nearly unstoppable combination. USA falls behind when lazy coaches take big kids at age 12 and exploit their window of opportunity, using the early puberty kids to win games. Nothing at all wrong with trying to win games, but using “that kid” and his/her physical advantage to win games rather than training a generation of players has consequences. But limiting the opportunity to only kids that can afford club soccer is a lot worse. 1000% correct. My boys have played in NY and Atlanta. The emphasis on big athletes in Georgia is far greater than elsewhere. My son’s former coach, who coached academy at Porto and West Brom, was always astonished by the region’s overemphasis on size over skill and strategic game recognition. Top US talents like Diego Rossi, Massimo Carizzo, Zidane Yanez , Damian Rouse and many others in NY would be relegated to 2nd teams in Atlanta because they are not big. We lose a lot of kids because there no uniformity in talent identification. “Talent evaluators” here are largely poor at their job. It's funny that everyone at all levels learns the same lesson when they play other teams that are fielding the highest level of talent possible. Big and fast is always nice but big and fast alone doesn't always translate into the highest level talent/ability whatever you want to call it player. Once everyone on the field is the highest level of player available possible. Team tactics, defensive, Goal Tending, etc all become what wins games usually over individual effort. The problem is people that don't understand (yet) that big and fast don't always equate to the best players are functioning as recruiters. If this happens at multiple levels you can see why we're not winning at the highest levels. |
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Post by datrain on Aug 1, 2024 13:58:31 GMT -5
Very well stated. I concur.
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Post by soccerfan30 on Aug 1, 2024 14:23:25 GMT -5
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rotgg
Jr. Academy
Posts: 90
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Post by rotgg on Aug 1, 2024 14:52:14 GMT -5
1. Other sports get the biggest best athletes in the US
2. Cost of play = less open competition
3. Parents
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Post by rifle on Aug 2, 2024 12:04:49 GMT -5
Does Morocco have better youth coaches?
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rotgg
Jr. Academy
Posts: 90
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Post by rotgg on Aug 2, 2024 12:34:42 GMT -5
Does Morocco have better youth coaches? not sure but they have 13players over 6ft lol |
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Post by datrain on Aug 2, 2024 14:26:42 GMT -5
Most of the stars of their senior national team are 6’0” or shorter: Hakimi, Ziyech, Diaz, Amrabat, Ounahi, Adli, El Khannous, Mazraoui, Boufal
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rotgg
Jr. Academy
Posts: 90
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Post by rotgg on Aug 2, 2024 14:43:25 GMT -5
Most of the stars of their senior national team are 6’0” or shorter: Hakimi, Ziyech, Diaz, Amrabat, Ounahi, Adli, El Khannous, Mazraoui, Boufal Goes without saying all those big fast ones are crap just like the posters have stated ROFL |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 2, 2024 16:24:26 GMT -5
bottom line we suck. I think we will continue to get worse as the domestic player is squeezed out of opportunities annually.
The sport attempts to establish greatest at 11 years old vs 18.
the concept of pickup games is no longer, used to be standard. no more. to much formal structure and organization.
creating robots who pass backwards vs kids who want to take on defenders and attack space.
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Post by bananarama on Aug 4, 2024 19:30:27 GMT -5
I agree with Adu's point but I'll say this- a lot of national team players in Men's football are fairly tall. Take a look at the England National team: England 2024 Squad. Foden is the only player below 5'8. Even Spain (a team that many say prioritizes technical ability over size), has several players in the 5'10 - 6'3 range: Spain 2024 Squad. Size and physical ability must account for something. My experience is that coaches prioritize bigger kids at the younger ages here in Atlanta. For example, most top teams my son's Academy team went against last year had several huge kids. Some of them looked nearly 15 despite being in elementary school. That said, there are plenty of exceptions. I’ve seen several kids on top teams who were smaller and technical. Someone obviously noticed them. I’ve also seen that more and more youth teams in Atlanta play technical, possession-oriented football compared to 20 years ago. This makes me believe that we are trending in the right direction. I hope we can all agree that being big, fast, & strong shouldn't inherently be seen almost as a negative, in soccer or pretty much any other sport. Some seem to want to denigrate those more physically gifted players as "just" better athletes, who otherwise would have no place on a soccer pitch. But the fact is, being fast in particular can be a huge benefit in soccer. Size & strength can be too. And that's especially true at the younger ages, when bodies are still developing. The goal for coaches- and what could define their success as a coach- is being able to turn those "just athletes" into well-rounded players. But I certainly don't fault them for trying with those type of athletes. I think the point is that athleticism is put before technical skills in the U.S. Most other countries put technique like footwork, dribbling, first touch, etc. first. You see teams using the big kids to boot the ball down the field in younger years instead of learning how to dribble out of tough situations. This leads to them struggling with those skills by the time they hit U13-U15 and never really catching up (watch how Uruguay dominated USMNT). It’s a popular saying but true that Messi wouldn’t have made it through our US system. Some say parents wanting to win are the issue(more likely to win with big kids at early ages). Some say it’s lack of relegation/promotion. So what clubs are focusing on technical skills in Atlanta? |
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