|
Post by sidelinemama on Aug 6, 2015 9:17:17 GMT -5
goteam: If your son's team deserved to be there, they would be. That's not true, and I sincerely hope you know it. U13 placement is largely about politics. Continued U12 team placement in U13 even as we're discussing newly mandated (but not yet effective) USSF rules about number of players and field sizes (which do not permit U12 teams to play full-size fields at 11v11) is laughable, at best. It's pathetic, at worst, giving this last gasp effort at chasing the elite dream (i.e. sales tool for clubs). It's not just the U13 that is politics. You can just look at teams that should have been relegated, and teams that shouldn't have been promoted at all levels. It goes on the whole time you play soccer. It's laughable really.
|
|
|
Post by cantgetright on Aug 6, 2015 9:37:58 GMT -5
jash goteam: Jash I was responding to the opinion of the poster who said that the U12 teams did not belong. When they don't lose a game playing their own age group the entire season and through tournaments, that means that yes they do need more challenges. The U13 on the bubble for classic 2 probably would end up bottom of Classic 2. Those U12 teams who i quote are just "meh" would be in the middle of the pack in classic 1 if they played. Those U12 teams have played some decent U13 teams last season and won, and those teams are in classic 1. Can goteam state the same for his team. Goteam is pissed, but he should be more pissed at his club for promising something before they knew.
|
|
|
Post by chelsea14 on Aug 6, 2015 10:00:40 GMT -5
I think go team is referring to how last years u12's did playing up, not this years u12's who will be playing up.
Why do these teams need to play up in classic 2? Why not 3 or 4 or 5? And it's great they beat everyone their own age, but does that mean they deserve to be classic 2? How do you measure that?
|
|
|
Post by soccerfan30 on Aug 6, 2015 11:40:32 GMT -5
Because Platinum is higher than gold and it fits more closely with their established naming convention. The Gold became the pre-ecnl team and Navy was renamed gold etc. Their ECNL team is called Platinum now? The top U13 Tophat Team is called Platinum, they didn't want to use Pre-ECNL for the name, U14 and above top teams will have the ECNL designation in their name.
|
|
|
Post by goteam on Aug 6, 2015 11:43:51 GMT -5
goteam: You say that in the spring the other 2 U12 teams were meh? ?I don't think either of them lost a game last season?? How much better could they have done?? You misread or I mis-typed my original reference to the U12 teams being meh. I was speaking of the 3 U12 teams last year that played up to U13. Yes, north Concorde elite won the bracket however the other 2 younger teams in the spring specifically did not do so hot. (go check out the number of wins) I get it your kid is on a U12 team playing up and you are very excited and you feel he & his team deserve it. Good for you..
|
|
|
Post by stevieg on Aug 6, 2015 11:55:20 GMT -5
I have no dog in this fight as my daughter is a U14 now, but when she was a U12, all the top teams at the time (TH, CFx2, AFU, GSA, UFA, SSA, etc.) played academy. No one even thought about playing Athena. In fact, many of us would have preferred another year at 8v8 as 11 yr old girls can hardly kick the ball all the way across the big field. I just don't get the rush.
|
|
|
Post by cantgetright on Aug 6, 2015 12:09:30 GMT -5
I actually would have preferred 8v8 as well, more touches, but that is not the way things are going unfortunately. When your competitors are all doing it, you almost don't have a choice. If they get a year under their belts playing 11v11, then you will probably lose when you play them if you were playing 8v8 the whole time. Once you start losing, you lose all chance of making the top leagues, then parents\kids get disgruntled and leave and then you are left with a shell of a team. They should have had an 11v11 U12 bracket if they were going to let them play 11v11 at U12. I certainly understand u13's getting mad when U12's are taking their spots. I get it.
|
|
|
Post by ilove8amgames on Aug 6, 2015 12:23:50 GMT -5
I have a dog in the fight as a parent on one of the U12 teams. I did not-nor did anyone else I know-ask or push to be elevated up. Once we (parents) became comfortable that our kid would not be hurt playing up and that it would stimulate, and not stunt, his soccer growth, we gave our kid the blessing to do it.
That said, I completely get it why some teams that were bumped to C3 are upset. I expect to be in the same boat next year with my younger son is is not "elite." However, I don't think that frustration should be directed to these U12 teams. What about the other C2 teams that took your team's spot? Or your club who unintentionally misled you? Also, can't your team do well at C3 and be in C2 in the Spring? If they were a bubble team for C2, is it credible to have any expectations that they would have won C2 or been promoted to C1 at the end of the Fall season? I don't think so. I think you're going to end up in the same spot in 4 months.
It remains to be seen how these U12 teams will do in C2, but they've shown that they can and do win against C2 teams and stand a very credible chance to be promoted out of C2 into C1 in the Spring. Why should they be held back just based on age? Sounds like the opposite of competition. Apparently, people who work at this and devote their time to this objectively agree on this point.
I just don't think its fair to say that kids on the U12 team don't deserve to be there or are chasing the dragon; totally inaccurate.
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 6, 2015 12:35:12 GMT -5
Keep in mind you also have playups on some of those u12 teams, now you have those kids playing u13 as 10/11 year olds. Those kids should/would be u11s playing 8v8, but instead are playing competitive u13 11v11.
|
|
|
Post by paterfamilias on Aug 6, 2015 12:39:47 GMT -5
I have a dog in the fight as a parent on one of the U12 teams. I did not-nor did anyone else I know-ask or push to be elevated up. I believe you are being either disingenuous or purposely ignorant about the process here. You know your coach right? He or she is the one making the request on behalf of the team. Please do not suggest that no one asked to be moved up. You don't just get things without asking. I do not have a problem with the U12 teams playing up. As the competition evolves teams and clubs will adapt. As with any competition, there will be winners and there will be losers. A better solution for development would be to eliminate scoring until U15 or U16, friendlies exclusively until then. Players and coaches could experiement more with less fear of ramifications.
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 6, 2015 12:42:43 GMT -5
Lets keep it clean folks! Its a sensitive topic and we are all passionate about the sport, just remember to be kind to others!!
|
|
|
Post by zizou on Aug 6, 2015 13:06:21 GMT -5
A better solution for development would be to eliminate scoring until U15 or U16, friendlies exclusively until then. Players and coaches could experiement more with less fear of ramifications. There are lots of theories about what is best for development. Your approach would be consistent with what the British do, but not with what the Germans do. Which footballing culture would you rather emulate? From a Guardian article on how the DFB turned football around after the terrible Euro 2000 performance by Die Mannschaft. I have been to the Freiburg facility and have seen their youth teams train. Watched their U14 girls play. They were very very (frighteningly) good: Last week the Guardian went behind the scenes at Freiburg, whose location, on the fringes of the Black Forest, is every bit as impressive as the work that goes on at the football school. The facility, which has four pitches including a small stadium, cost €10m in 2001, before the academy reforms were introduced and at a time when Freiburg were relegated from the Bundesliga, which gives an idea of how committed they are to producing players. Freiburg has neither the financial wherewithal nor the desire to compete for overseas talent, so there is no chance of Streich, or any of his staff, being spotted with an agent in São Paulo brokering a deal for a teenage Brazilian. Of the 66 players in the under-16 to under-19 age groups in their academy, all but two are eligible to play for Germany. In keeping with the ethos of the club, where there is a wonderful sense of community, every senior academy player earns the same. Across a sizeable area where they face little competition from other Bundesliga clubs, Freiburg work closely with five amateur feeder teams who receive a part-time coach to train children aged 8 to 11 twice a week. The most promising players are invited to attend the academy during school holidays and for occasional tournaments at weekends. "We believe it is not good for a nine-year-old to play [regularly] for a professional football club because it changes the reasons why he plays football," says Sebastian Neuf, a member of the football school's management. Once a player reaches under-12 level things change. Those who live within 40km of Freiburg train at the football school up to four times a week and play in a league, where teams can win a title and be relegated, a major difference to the way academies are run in England. The earliest an academy player would take part in competitive football with a professional club in England – where the theory is that it "should be about performances, not results" – is at under-18 level. Dutt offers an interesting response when asked about the rationale behind the league system. "It's important for the mentality to have some games in the year you have to win, but it is not the main thing. The main thing is to do good training. "For the Germans this system is very important. It's like golf. If I play golf in England, no club wants to know my handicap. If I go to play in Germany you have to show your handicap. If you play with a guy you don't know, the first question is: 'How do you do?' The second question is: 'What is your handicap?' Germans want to reach something, they want to go up."
|
|
|
Post by paterfamilias on Aug 6, 2015 13:17:28 GMT -5
A better solution for development would be to eliminate scoring until U15 or U16, friendlies exclusively until then. Players and coaches could experiment more with less fear of ramifications. There are lots of theories about what is best for development. Your approach would be consistent with what the British do, but not with what the Germans do. Which footballing culture would you rather emulate? Nice observation about the defending world Champs. How do they do it in Spain, Italy, Brazil, France, Argentina
|
|
|
Post by chelsea14 on Aug 6, 2015 13:39:27 GMT -5
Those U12 teams have played some decent U13 teams last season and won, and those teams are in classic 1.
Which ones? Scanned sic quickly and at least 1 of the 3 teams as far as I can see has zero wins against a u13 team listed in classic 1 and 2
|
|
|
Post by ilove8amgames on Aug 6, 2015 13:51:52 GMT -5
paterfamilias "I believe you are being either disingenuous or purposely ignorant about the process here."
Let's leave the ad hominems for the other board, please. Of course I knew the team would likely be playing up. The coach made it clear to all early on last year. If you go on to re-read what I posted, you'd see I wrote that my spouse and I made the education decision before tryouts to continue on with the team instead of trying a different club.
I would further caution you—and others—to not hastily make assumptions that just because a kid is "playing up" that necessarily means his parents are pushing him beyond his/her comfort level or abilities or is bad for development.
The proof is in the pudding. The two CF teams that played up last year are now much, much stronger for it. I’ve seen them play and develop over last year. I bet you haven’t seen them play. I bet you’ve not seen any of these U12 teams play either. Again, I’d caution you from spouting unsupported opinions lest you lose all credibility.
Finally, I get it competition is out of fashion with some people now-a-days. And I also get it that you subscribe to the "trophies for all” philosophy. I understand your point, but don’t agree with it. Many others don’t either. I hand this off to you will all good intention, perhaps you’d be happier in rec, not select, soccer.
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 6, 2015 14:08:36 GMT -5
Its too bad for a few other top teams that chose to play academy u12 11v11, 3 less teams to play during the year.
|
|
|
Post by allthingsoccer on Aug 6, 2015 14:08:29 GMT -5
I didnt see any U12's playing classic 1. I couldnt find the link to the U13's.
I have a dog in the fight but really doesnt matter where we get placed. I do know C2 and some C1 teams would be the best towards our team development. I do understand that true U13 teams may get bumped by a team that plays up. However, some true U13 cant be competitive with some U12's so how does one do the placement?? Does the true U13 get the C2 spot or the U12?? Do all U12 teams enter the classic level at 3? That might work. If they are good enough they will be in C2 in Spring.
I would like to see a tournament (maybe Academy Cup) that determines U12 placement into Classic. ?? The top 2 teams get a birth in Classic 2 and then only two more get into C3. This limits the U12 teams that can play up into the classic level.
|
|
|
Post by Keeper on Aug 6, 2015 14:16:29 GMT -5
I didnt see any U12's playing classic 1. I couldnt find the link to the U13's. I have a dog in the fight but really doesnt matter where we get placed. I do know C2 and some C1 teams would be the best towards our team development. I do understand that true U13 teams may get bumped by a team that plays up. However, some true U13 cant be competitive with some U12's so how does one do the placement?? Does the true U13 get the C2 spot or the U12?? Do all U12 teams enter the classic level at 3? That might work. If they are good enough they will be in C2 in Spring. I would like to see a tournament (maybe Academy Cup) that determines U12 placement into Classic. ?? The top 2 teams get a birth in Classic 2 and then only two more get into C3. This limits the U12 teams that can play up into the classic level. Yes!!! Ga Soccer needs to define this by next fall. It would be great to make academy cup relevant again and all U11s wanting to play u13 have to play in a specific tournament. Also the true u13 should always get the benefit of doubt over a u12 because that u12 team still have another year. Can't fight Father Time eh?
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 6, 2015 14:20:18 GMT -5
Hum, next year should be moot point if 9v9 is the standard for u12s. DA is definitely going to be 9v9 at u12.
|
|
|
Post by allthingsoccer on Aug 6, 2015 14:28:54 GMT -5
For U12 DA next year. What will the birth year be? (off topic sorry)
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 6, 2015 14:30:17 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 6, 2015 14:44:23 GMT -5
however, still don't know for sure about next year and DA, could be 03s to 05s!
|
|
|
Post by jash on Aug 6, 2015 15:23:28 GMT -5
My philosophy is there is plenty of good competition that is age level and development level appropriate. This is a big state with a lot of soccer clubs, and tons of good teams. Finding good competition just isn't hard.
I know the DOCs are really quite excellent at selling this, and it all sounds super duper credible. Throw around words like 'challenge', 'develop', 'excel', 'elite', and 'get ahead' and you can have players, parents, and coaches drooling.
But it's almost never helpful, and when you look at the sport as a whole, it hurts more than it helps. It takes away good competition at the U12 level that would help the WHOLE U12 age group develop.
I'm not in the 'trophies for all' or 'competition is bad' camp. And I seriously doubt anyone here whose kids play select soccer is in that camp. My kid is way past all this, thankfully, so I don't care about the specific teams. I just personally think Atlanta has become a really awful soccer scene with this pushing ahead. I know many disagree and that's fine. But don't think I disagree with you because I don't think there should be competition.
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 6, 2015 16:02:30 GMT -5
Most of us I think were focusing comments on the boys side when discussing this issue. I'm assuming most are opposed to the idea of having u12 girls play up at u13 Athena B? We've had conversations about this in other threads, but the physicality on the girls side can get flat our be dirty as your go down each level of play. Girls aren't quite as quick, and you see a lit bit more physical contact as your drop from each level. (just my opinion)
|
|
|
Post by stevieg on Aug 6, 2015 17:06:39 GMT -5
Most of us I think were focusing comments on the boys side when discussing this issue. I'm assuming most are opposed to the idea of having u12 girls play up at u13 Athena B? We've had conversations about this in other threads, but the physicality on the girls side can get flat our be dirty as your go down each level of play. Girls aren't quite as quick, and you see a lit bit more physical contact as your drop from each level. (just my opinion) Well, it looks like there are two CF U12 teams playing in Athena B this fall.
|
|
|
Post by SoccerMom on Aug 6, 2015 17:10:25 GMT -5
Ok....so this u12 teams playing up seems to be isolated to CF?
|
|
|
Post by paterfamilias on Aug 6, 2015 17:43:22 GMT -5
Finally, I get it competition is out of fashion with some people now-a-days. And I also get it that you subscribe to the "trophies for all” philosophy. Friend, my first paragraph was directed at you, cwrtainly. My second was too. The one where I said I have no problem with U12s playing up. Did that one not register as salient? I'm on your side as far as the team and player play ups go. I just didn't buy your story that no one asked to play up. If the kids are physically able to compete I think they should be allowed. Trophies for all? Sure dude. You know in select, it's medals the kids shoot for, right? Development for all? Absolutely. Is keeping score how you measure development, awesome go for it! It's about the journey, not the destination. When your kids get through their select years come talk with me.
|
|
|
Post by Keeper on Aug 6, 2015 18:13:18 GMT -5
Ok....so this u12 teams playing up seems to be isolated to CF? Not likely, but CF has them listed as U12 with GA Soccer so everyone really knows. I'm sure CFC Red Star, SSA, AFU, NASA and UFA have a team or two playing up but they aren't listed. Example from U13 Athena B: Concorde Fire North Elite (12) Kinda hard not to see that and go "aww shucks!!!"
|
|
|
Post by Keeper on Aug 6, 2015 18:22:49 GMT -5
Anyone know why the entire U13 boys brackets have been removed from the website?? Has all the drama lead to that much of team movement?
|
|
shapo
Jr. Academy
Posts: 27
|
Post by shapo on Aug 6, 2015 18:42:30 GMT -5
Ok....so this u12 teams playing up seems to be isolated to CF? Not likely, but CF has them listed as U12 with GA Soccer so everyone really knows. I'm sure CFC Red Star, SSA, AFU, NASA and UFA have a team or two playing up but they aren't listed. Example from U13 Athena B: Concorde Fire North Elite (12) Kinda hard not to see that and go "aww shucks!!!" My daughter is playing on one of the 2 CF u12 teams in Athena B. We were told in May that this was happening. We were definitely not asked our opinion. I know many of the parents, myself included, were concerned about playing up. We scrimmaged two u13 team in May and one this past weekend. The girls we played were much bigger and more physical. That being said, we one each game by at least a three goal margin, including 6-2 against a team that is in Athena C, and would likely be in n B were it not for the two u12 play ups. Our parents have decided, after a good bit of talk, to buy in, find the positives of playing up, but keep our eyes open. We shall see.
|
|