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Post by spectator on Oct 11, 2015 14:54:27 GMT -5
Another topic for discussion - what is your definition of 'physical' and 'dirty' with regard to how players play the game? And when do you see the 'dirty' the most - at what level, gender, league?
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Post by rifle on Oct 11, 2015 15:46:08 GMT -5
This should get interesting.
Physical play needs to be understood to be appreciated. Physical play generates lots of referee criticism, often unfairly (particarly among "new" soccer people -there are few parents who can see their kid get knocked off a ball cleanly, without thinking it is a foul).
Talented physical players who play clean are fun to watch.
In my opinion, somebody who wilts against physical play will never succeed at high levels. A degree of nastiness is just required.
Dirty play is often totally different, and a good referee is critical to keep it from escalating into a real mess. In my experience, dirty play usually comes when a team isn't as good, nor as physical, and they resort to violence out of frustration. Add an inexperienced referee to a game like this, and you'll see players getting hurt.
That's all I've got.
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Post by spectator on Oct 11, 2015 16:14:38 GMT -5
Answering my own:
Soccer is a physical game - shoulder to shoulder is fine - players use their bodies to win and defend the ball. I've seen players really know how to use their bodies, lean in, turn and use the momentum of the other player they beat to propel themselves forward. It's a beautiful mix of athleticism and physics (I'm a total geek that way). Of course most parents think any physical contact in soccer is a no no and scream for fouls even when it's honest play. That's a physical game.
Slide tackles at the ball are also beautiful things to see when they work right. Risk is the ball or player moving and sliding into an ankle but a good physical player knows how to do it right.
A good fast physical game is interesting to watch and according to my player, the most fun to play.
EXCEPT . . when it's not. I have seen over my many many years in youth soccer, pure dirty tactics - whether taught by the coach, a parent or just a frustrated player, going for ankles, taking out any player with knee wrapped - that's just dirty. Lately I see more dirty play just on the field not at the ball - elbows to the gut when two players are close, punches in the back, in girls games, hair pulling and scratching. It's not the norm but I'm seeing it more and more now.
And it's usually when a team is being outplayed, being beaten and they resort to all they have left - brute play. In most of these cases, the team being beat is sub par in skills, fitness, etc - probably over placed in a division or league and parents seem to condone it by clapping when players go down or worse, calling for their players to 'take out' another one. At that point, referees need to gain control or someone may - and will - get hurt.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 11, 2015 16:34:21 GMT -5
I have to slightly disagree with the last comment Spectator. I have witnessed a REALLY good team resort to really dirty play and the refs ignore it. It would include a horrible side tackle that took a player out inside the box with no contact on the ball and the ref did not call anything. In addition, I witnessed a player throwing an all-out punch inside the box - that landed the receiver (going for a goal) of the punch flat on their face. Again - ref ignored it.
I have also witnessed really good teams throw pull hair and flat out cleating on legs when players have fallen when the refs weren't looking.
The sad thing -these were really good teams. They didn't need to play that way and the refs didn't need to turn an eye.
I have witnessed this both in select and in the academy... not same teams and I won't divulge the teams. It's bad enough they play that way. My fear is that a player from the opposing teams will be injured - and unable to return to the game.
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Post by spectator on Oct 11, 2015 17:23:31 GMT -5
I have to slightly disagree with the last comment Spectator. I have witnessed a REALLY good team resort to really dirty play and the refs ignore it. It would include a horrible side tackle that took a player out inside the box with no contact on the ball and the ref did not call anything. In addition, I witnessed a player throwing an all-out punch inside the box - that landed the receiver (going for a goal) of the punch flat on their face. Again - ref ignored it. I have also witnessed really good teams throw pull hair and flat out cleating on legs when players have fallen when the refs weren't looking. The sad thing -these were really good teams. They didn't need to play that way and the refs didn't need to turn an eye. I have witnessed this both in select and in the academy... not same teams and I won't divulge the teams. It's bad enough they play that way. My fear is that a player from the opposing teams will be injured - and unable to return to the game. Speaking in generalities - I do believe when a team isn't as good as the team they are losing to they will resort to more physicality - whether physical play or outright dirty depends on the player and the day. When a team is losing, and just getting beaten by better play, they get frustrated -they're still kids. When adults in the mix - be it referee or coach - don't step in and change that - that's dirty play. Not saying any team on any day can't be as nasty as what they're up against, but generally speaking - from what I have seen, it's the lessor teams that resort to it first. Girls and boys and at pretty much every level. We saw part of a rec game last year where a player went after another one - crossed the field and took him out - kid had to be carried off on a stretches - no card for the other player and the team was high fiving each other. Coach and ref did nothing. We had a tournament game that was beyond physical - lots of late hits, those secret punches to the gut when refs weren't looking and our team started playing that way, too. To his credit, our coach yanked several off the field and chewed them out - we could hear him on our side yelling PLAY THE GAME - PLAY OUR GAME! Meaning - stop playing to this brute level you're facing and use your skills to get out of it. They did - they won. It frustrated the other team to the point they refused to shake hands after the game and apparently their coach was fine with that. That's poor coaching and a poor lesson to these players. The behind the referee's back behavior I believe is taught by less than ethical coaches or overzealous parents who don't understand the game or just want to win. Referees are human - they miss calls - especially those they can't see. There's pretty much nothing you can do when you see a player take down another if the ref isn't looking and the ball is downfield. Players can tell the center about the behavior but then it's still up to the referee - and his or her ego - as to whether they want to keep an eye out. I will say in my player's age group, certain teams have reputations for very very physical play - to the point of getting dirty especially if they are losing but I've seen those teams target kids with wrapped knees or ankles just to hurt them. that's shameful. But thankfully there are more just good physical teams and it makes for good soccer to watch - granted I'm an old hand at this and probably would have been the screaming ninny on the sidelines at U11 had I seen what I see now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 17:57:25 GMT -5
We had a game recently where several players from both teams knew each other. After the game an "adult" from the other team posted a picture on Facebook boasting about her player taking down one of ours. As tends to happen with social media, the post eventually got around to our player who was on the ground in the picture. Their player is really quite good. It's a shame that's what this grandmother chose to focus on.
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Post by spectator on Oct 11, 2015 18:46:06 GMT -5
We had a game recently where several players from both teams knew each other. After the game an "adult" from the other team posted a picture on Facebook boasting about her player taking down one of ours. As tends to happen with social media, the post eventually got around to our player who was on the ground in the picture. Their player is really quite good. It's a shame that's what this grandmother chose to focus on. That is ridiculous - and stupid! We teach our kids that what you post on social media is out there forever and now colleges are looking at your social media sites. We have had several instances where players who knew one another from school would tweet out something then get it re-tweeted and then all heck breaks loose between the kids - or worse the ridiculous adults who try to follow and engage teenagers. Two mothers I know were all up in that twitter war stirring it up and encouraging the insults. Over a youth soccer game that was a one goal differential? How ridiculously petty is that? But yes, to your point, when the adults focus on the physicality or brag about taking down players, that's a parenting issue and I pity the kid in that situation - for the most part, kids still want to please their parents and make them proud. If you send the message that fouling, taking down or hurting other players is what you want, that's what kids will do. Again - this is youth soccer - to get that wrapped up to engage with kids on social media is petty.
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Post by newposter on Oct 11, 2015 19:18:26 GMT -5
I've seen U15 games where players have been punched with a closed fist in front of the center refs. Both centers saw and acknowledged the punches. This is violent play and both instances should have warranted immediate red cards. One got a verbal warning that the entire parent sideline heard including the parent of the player who was punched. The other gave a yellow card. In both instances the parents were upset and yelled. I don't blame them. The coaches tried to talk to the centers. Neither would even go over and talk. Both centers ref a lot as I've personally seen them at multiple parks and at tournaments. I also blame the coaches. Neither took either player out. Not sure what that teaches the players
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Post by jash on Oct 11, 2015 19:28:19 GMT -5
I've seen U15 games where players have been punched with a closed fist in front of the center refs. Both centers saw and acknowledged the punches. This is violent play and both instances should have warranted immediate red cards. One got a verbal warning that the entire parent sideline heard including the parent of the player who was punched. The other gave a yellow card. In both instances the parents were upset and yelled. I don't blame them. The coaches tried to talk to the centers. Neither would even go over and talk. Both centers ref a lot as I've personally seen them at multiple parks and at tournaments. I also blame the coaches. Neither took either player out. Not sure what that teaches the players Two centers at a U15 game?
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Post by newposter on Oct 11, 2015 19:40:40 GMT -5
No. 1 center at 2 different games.
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