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Post by rocko1989 on Nov 7, 2016 7:55:00 GMT -5
Does anyone else see a problem with ECNL players, on an off weekend, playing with a lower level team?
We recently ran across a few players from one of the Atlanta ECNL teams, that were playing with an Athena B level team. Certainly this is a bit interesting at the least.
Thoughts?
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Post by SoccerMom on Nov 7, 2016 8:35:47 GMT -5
Are they true ECNL players? or are they Athena players that get to guest play with ECNL team sometimes?
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 7, 2016 8:38:33 GMT -5
Yea, a few of the ECNL roster a lot of girls, but many never even play a game. I think AFU does this with hand full of their RPL players.
Whatever happened with the new rule not allowing regular ECNL players to play in athena games?
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Post by rocko1989 on Nov 7, 2016 9:15:48 GMT -5
Are they true ECNL players? or are they Athena players that get to guest play with ECNL team sometimes? Good question. I believe they are all true ECNL players. The parent said so, and we know parents never exaggerate the abilities of a child!
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Post by spectator on Nov 7, 2016 12:38:29 GMT -5
The ECNL clubs/teams get around this by saying the player is 'dual rostered' on Athena and ECNL teams. I've seen ECNL players playing as low as Athena D to help a team keep a slot or be promoted.
The practice needs to stop - you can't pull an RPL player to an Athena B team to help out - ECNL shouldn't be allowed to either. But different rules and not too many of the ones that are in place are ever enforced.
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Post by Keeper on Nov 7, 2016 13:32:44 GMT -5
Just another rule the big clubs have used against the original intent of helping smaller clubs and club passing. Sad that an actual adult would think that it's right for an ECNL player, bench or starter that should play on a lower level team. And then that parents agrees with it too. I mean jeez these are kids just trying to have fun and learn the great game of soccer.
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Post by fan on Nov 7, 2016 19:05:23 GMT -5
It looks like the rule against putting ECNL players on Athena rosters passed at the last AGM (see page 2). usys-assets.ae-admin.com/assets/970/15/Rule%20Changes%20from%2016%20AGM.pdfI can see how players could be rostered on both an RPL team and an ECNL team since the rule says Athena A or lower. However, as I read the rule, a team will have to forfeit a game if they play a player in an Athena regular season game if she's on an ECNL roster. As for 'you can't pull an RPL player to an Athena B team to help out' - you can. You just need to roster the player on the Athena B team and player pass them to RPL. That definitely happens now for some RPL teams. The difference is there are limits on how many player passes can be used from Athena to RPL and there wasn't a limit on how many ECNL players could be used. Those RPL teams cheat the system, just to a lesser degree than the ECNL teams.
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Post by rocko1989 on Nov 7, 2016 19:47:26 GMT -5
So if the other team did not catch it, there is probably nothing to be done. Something interesting is one of the ECNL players scored a goal in a game with an Athena B team, so her name is listed in the stats.
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Post by spectator on Nov 8, 2016 12:22:23 GMT -5
It looks like the rule against putting ECNL players on Athena rosters passed at the last AGM (see page 2). usys-assets.ae-admin.com/assets/970/15/Rule%20Changes%20from%2016%20AGM.pdfI can see how players could be rostered on both an RPL team and an ECNL team since the rule says Athena A or lower. However, as I read the rule, a team will have to forfeit a game if they play a player in an Athena regular season game if she's on an ECNL roster. As for 'you can't pull an RPL player to an Athena B team to help out' - you can. You just need to roster the player on the Athena B team and player pass them to RPL. That definitely happens now for some RPL teams. The difference is there are limits on how many player passes can be used from Athena to RPL and there wasn't a limit on how many ECNL players could be used. Those RPL teams cheat the system, just to a lesser degree than the ECNL teams. What club rosters a player on an Athena B team and club passes them to RPL? Most big clubs won't even club pass an Athena A player to play RPL unless it's for State Cup due to injuries - rarely if ever during the season.
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Post by fan on Nov 8, 2016 15:14:36 GMT -5
It looks like the rule against putting ECNL players on Athena rosters passed at the last AGM (see page 2). usys-assets.ae-admin.com/assets/970/15/Rule%20Changes%20from%2016%20AGM.pdfI can see how players could be rostered on both an RPL team and an ECNL team since the rule says Athena A or lower. However, as I read the rule, a team will have to forfeit a game if they play a player in an Athena regular season game if she's on an ECNL roster. As for 'you can't pull an RPL player to an Athena B team to help out' - you can. You just need to roster the player on the Athena B team and player pass them to RPL. That definitely happens now for some RPL teams. The difference is there are limits on how many player passes can be used from Athena to RPL and there wasn't a limit on how many ECNL players could be used. Those RPL teams cheat the system, just to a lesser degree than the ECNL teams. What club rosters a player on an Athena B team and club passes them to RPL? Most big clubs won't even club pass an Athena A player to play RPL unless it's for State Cup due to injuries - rarely if ever during the season. I think it's more likely to happen with the smaller clubs than the bigger ones since they don't have as much depth. Chiefs is one that rosters 2-3 players down pretty regularly although it's rare for them to have an RPL team.
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Post by Keeper on Nov 8, 2016 21:54:53 GMT -5
It looks like the rule against putting ECNL players on Athena rosters passed at the last AGM (see page 2). usys-assets.ae-admin.com/assets/970/15/Rule%20Changes%20from%2016%20AGM.pdfI can see how players could be rostered on both an RPL team and an ECNL team since the rule says Athena A or lower. However, as I read the rule, a team will have to forfeit a game if they play a player in an Athena regular season game if she's on an ECNL roster. As for 'you can't pull an RPL player to an Athena B team to help out' - you can. You just need to roster the player on the Athena B team and player pass them to RPL. That definitely happens now for some RPL teams. The difference is there are limits on how many player passes can be used from Athena to RPL and there wasn't a limit on how many ECNL players could be used. Those RPL teams cheat the system, just to a lesser degree than the ECNL teams. What club rosters a player on an Athena B team and club passes them to RPL? Most big clubs won't even club pass an Athena A player to play RPL unless it's for State Cup due to injuries - rarely if ever during the season. AFU, GSA and Concorde have all done this as standard practice.
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Post by Keeper on Nov 8, 2016 21:56:49 GMT -5
What club rosters a player on an Athena B team and club passes them to RPL? Most big clubs won't even club pass an Athena A player to play RPL unless it's for State Cup due to injuries - rarely if ever during the season. I think it's more likely to happen with the smaller clubs than the bigger ones since they don't have as much depth. Chiefs is one that rosters 2-3 players down pretty regularly although it's rare for them to have an RPL team. Yeah that's no where near true about Chiefs, especially considering most of their top teams all have 17-18 players rosters while the lower teams have only 13-14.
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Post by fan on Nov 9, 2016 7:50:48 GMT -5
I think it's more likely to happen with the smaller clubs than the bigger ones since they don't have as much depth. Chiefs is one that rosters 2-3 players down pretty regularly although it's rare for them to have an RPL team. Yeah that's no where near true about Chiefs, especially considering most of their top teams all have 17-18 players rosters while the lower teams have only 13-14. That's what I have seen as one of my kids plays at Chiefs. Granted this year with the age group changes it's more about rostering a couple players in the age group below rather than in a lower division of the same age group. There are RPL players rostered down again this year and players on other teams rostered below their true team. These are not kids who were borderline for making the team. I don't doubt that the same things happens at other clubs big and small and I can see why extra players are needed. However, I think it's disingenuous to say "Sad that an actual adult would think that it's right for an ECNL player, bench or starter that should play on a lower level team." when RPL players at your own club are playing down.
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Post by guest on Nov 9, 2016 12:45:49 GMT -5
Yes, but then it was cancelled the next SAGM because of a conflict with US Soccer rules.
usys-assets.ae-admin.com/assets/970/15/Rule%20Changes%20from%2016%20SAGM.pdf
Teams can load up on ECNL players at will.
You can make an argument either way. But at least don't hide the fact that the side you field in the regular season is not the one you will field at State Cup. We played a team last year at State Cup who had pulled down 6 ECNL players. Those 6 players accounted for about 80% of their team's ECNL goals scored that season, so they were not the bench sitters. I would be pretty PO'd to be a parent who paid dues, played all season and then got cut from the team at State Cup because of this issue.
ps: That tactic did not work, we still won our bracket and advanced to the final four. That opposing team had great players, but was not playing as a team. Not sure they even knew each other's names.
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Post by fan on Nov 9, 2016 14:47:08 GMT -5
Interesting. That explains why the rule isn't in the rules document on the Georgia Soccer site. I'm glad the 6 ECNL players didn't work out for that team. I think it's great if an ECNL team (or any team) pulls up a deserving player from a lower team occasionally but that's just poor sportsmanship.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 9, 2016 16:02:23 GMT -5
My guess the DA language in the rule change was the issue, probably should have just stuck with just ECNL language for now.
I've heard rumors of an occasional DA player slipping through the cracks, but my understanding is unless they quit, it doesn't happen.
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Post by docnfulton on Nov 10, 2016 7:10:25 GMT -5
ECNL is US Club, rule shot down as US Soccer said you cannot forbid a player to register with US Youth Soccer I.e., Georgia Soccer
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Post by docnfulton on Nov 10, 2016 12:28:13 GMT -5
Georgia Soccer isn't involved in DA, so I can't comment. I do know the history of the above ecnl/Athena rule being voted in under objections that it was unenforceable as well as agains US Youth Soccer. Then voted out following AGM.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 10, 2016 12:49:39 GMT -5
Makes sense -- its just great to see the rule in general though, even if voted out -- it shows that others recognize there is a problem.
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Post by guest on Nov 11, 2016 10:14:41 GMT -5
ECNL is US Club, rule shot down as US Soccer said you cannot forbid a player to register with US Youth Soccer I.e., Georgia Soccer In my mind there are two different problems.
1) Having several players playing both ECNL and 2nd team throughout the season. This is essentially having one group of girls (say 18 kids) playing as two teams. But at least everyone is clear about it up front. It just doesn't develop any bench strength.
2) Having two different teams and 'pulling down' the ECNL squad for State Cup. On one hand it means the best players from the club are playing at State Cup, thereby elevating the competition level at that event. On the other hand, it means some girls are playing for the 2nd team all season, until State Cup when they get cut. I suppose if a club were up front about that at tryouts, then it would be fair. But I doubt that is the case.
Surely there is a way to craft a rule that would eliminate or reduce the problem, while at the same time not running afoul of USYS rulings. Maybe say that they are allowed to register with USYS i.e. Georgia Soccer, but you need to play in a certain percent of regular season games to participate in State Cup. Similar participation rules exist for High School sports.
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Post by guest on Nov 11, 2016 10:15:24 GMT -5
PS: That was post # 200 - now I get to play Athena/Classic!
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 11, 2016 10:19:53 GMT -5
PS: That was post # 200 - now I get to play Athena/Classic! nice work! Now you need to replace those heavy a** copa's with a modern day $400 boot made of plastic.....
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Post by guest on Nov 11, 2016 13:22:30 GMT -5
PS: That was post # 200 - now I get to play Athena/Classic! nice work! Now you need to replace those heavy a** copa's with a modern day $400 boot made of plastic.....
Ha, ha. I had a pair of Predators when one night, Beckenbauer himself appeared in my dreams and told me to 'go Copa'. I went straight to the Adidas outlet in Grayson, forked over $65 and I haven't looked back since.
Could I interest you in a nice pair of Sambas?
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Post by jash on Nov 11, 2016 21:14:37 GMT -5
Ha, ha. I had a pair of Predators when one night, Beckenbauer himself appeared in my dreams and told me to 'go Copa'. I went straight to the Adidas outlet in Grayson, forked over $65 and I haven't looked back since.
Could I interest you in a nice pair of Sambas?
$65! You can't buy one shoe for that now.
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who
Jr. Academy
Posts: 15
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Post by who on Nov 15, 2016 15:07:42 GMT -5
Are they true ECNL players? or are they Athena players that get to guest play with ECNL team sometimes? ECNL players have ECNL patches on their jerseys, so unless they wear borrowed kits they should be apparent.
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Post by SoccerMom on Nov 15, 2016 15:14:42 GMT -5
Are they true ECNL players? or are they Athena players that get to guest play with ECNL team sometimes? ECNL players have ECNL patches on their jerseys, so unless they wear borrowed kits they should be apparent. Patches just mean that they played with an ECNL team if the league requires so.
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who
Jr. Academy
Posts: 15
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Post by who on Nov 15, 2016 15:16:53 GMT -5
Does anyone else see a problem with ECNL players, on an off weekend, playing with a lower level team? We recently ran across a few players from one of the Atlanta ECNL teams, that were playing with an Athena B level team. Certainly this is a bit interesting at the least. Thoughts? I believe teams should keep players at their achieved levels. Teams competing at the Athena or RPL levels who aren't from ECNL clubs should not have to compete against teams who can dual roster players. 2-3 ecnl players placed on an Athena or Div1 team can chance the outcome pretty significantly & in so doing the outcome of the league & state cup seeding. Really not a fair practice but most of the ecnl clubs have guilty of this except Tophat. TG has never done it & likely never will.
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who
Jr. Academy
Posts: 15
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Post by who on Nov 15, 2016 15:22:09 GMT -5
Does anyone else see a problem with ECNL players, on an off weekend, playing with a lower level team? We recently ran across a few players from one of the Atlanta ECNL teams, that were playing with an Athena B level team. Certainly this is a bit interesting at the least. Thoughts? I believe teams should keep players at their achieved levels. Teams competing at the Athena or RPL levels who aren't from ECNL clubs should not have to compete against teams who can dual roster players. 2-3 ecnl players placed on an Athena or Div1 team can chance the outcome pretty significantly & in so doing the outcome of the league & state cup seeding. Really not a fair practice but most of the ecnl clubs have guilty of this except Tophat. TG has never done it & likely never will.
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who
Jr. Academy
Posts: 15
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Post by who on Nov 15, 2016 15:28:35 GMT -5
Also, the tier system was created so that players/teams would compete against others at their same level in an attempt to be fair. To allow ringers to be brought in to gain an advantage over the rest is simply not right. But as long as the rules allow clubs & coaches to circumvent the intent to be fair, it will be done. Those of us who have been around a while know which clubs typically do this. So far GA Soccer has not intervened and it's been going on for quite a while; which suggests that they don't intend to.
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