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Post by surgesoccer on Mar 6, 2018 10:13:19 GMT -5
We recently played a tournament where the game ended in a 1 - 1 tie.
After the game as we were leaving the other team's coach had their players in a group talking to them. The gist of his message, which we overheard, was that the reason his team did not win the game is because the players were too nice and did not foul enough. He then told the parents that fouling was a legal part of the game and he needed his players to (intentionally) foul the other teams more often.
My thoughts:
1. Encouraging players to play aggressive and encouraging them to specifically (tactically) foul are not the same thing. Playing aggressive will naturally lead to more fouls but most would likely be unintentional. Purposefully fouling on the other hand, and based on past history with this team has included slide tackle into ankle with cleats up, hard fouls when challenging for balls, kicking other players ankles and shins, etc., increases the chance that a player gets injured.
2. Purposefully fouling is an attempt to intimidate the other team, disregarding an increased chance of hurting a player. Doesn't quite live up to the mission of youth soccer (this was a u13 team).
3. I'm disgusted with the team parents for accepting that it is ok for their player to purposely hurt on injure another player. Instead of encouraging the team (and their child) to win by improving their skills and teamwork, they are emphasizing winning at any cost.
4. By encouraging dangerous play from his team this coach has created a liability issue for his club. Yes we all sign waivers in regards to player injuries, but if a player is hurt playing a team that has been encouraged to purposefully foul, there is a case to be made that the coach created an unsafe playing environment. That's a possible lawsuit waiting to happen.
Just curious to get other parent's opinion on this.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Mar 6, 2018 10:26:22 GMT -5
I agree --
Was the team "soft" in your opinion? There definitely is big difference between toughness, playing with grit and aggressive vs just flat out playing dirty.
Nothing wrong with a nice hard foul every now and then, but seems like what you witnessed was taking it to another level!
I think alot of this starts at the u9/u10 age groups. Look once you tell a kid to scale it back, you often can ruin is aggressive nature and his/hers it factor. The big issue I have is at the younger age groups, when you see a truly egregious foul and maybe the 2nd to 4th foul by the same player, and the coach leaves the kid in the game. Refs don't want to throw a freaking u10 kid out of the game, coach take some responsibility and teach your kid right from wrong!
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Post by surgesoccer on Mar 6, 2018 10:35:32 GMT -5
No it was a pretty clean game. There were fouls both ways but nothing out of the normal from two teams playing hard to win.
I agree that the ref's could put a clamp down on fouling, but most ref's are doing the best they can and don't want to toss player. Once again I'm ok with encouraging a team to be aggressive, and that by itself will increase fouls. Big difference though between saying "be aggressive" and "you need to foul more often".
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Mar 6, 2018 11:00:04 GMT -5
Surgesoccer, the points you listed were spot on. I can't imagine any parent would be fine with their kids intentionally fouling opponents. This is especially true in the younger/youth ages since they sometimes don't even have control of their feet, much less talking about intentionally fouling without it potentially resulting in injury. Plus that is not how the game is played. When these same players grow up and are not fundamentally sound, fouling will only lead to fights and ejections.
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Post by Keeper on Mar 6, 2018 12:26:23 GMT -5
Just playing devils advocate, so it’s okay to foul in basketball to try and win but not in soccer? And yes I’m talking about about Middle/High school level not just NCAA or nba.
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Post by surgesoccer on Mar 6, 2018 12:43:13 GMT -5
Jump, I am not involved with youth basketball so can't respond to your point. I'll just say that any fouling that has a good probability that it is going to lead to an injury should not be coached.
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Post by alacrity174 on Mar 6, 2018 13:12:40 GMT -5
Just playing devils advocate, so it’s okay to foul in basketball to try and win but not in soccer? And yes I’m talking about about Middle/High school level not just NCAA or nba. Isn't a typical foul in Basketball basically a push but in the end not likely to cause any harm or injury. Soccer on the other hand if you are talking slide tackles and studs up etc can cause serious injury. Not a fan of players intentionally fouling just to foul, seems a strange thing for any coach to want to do.
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Post by rocko1989 on Mar 6, 2018 14:41:27 GMT -5
How can something be a legal part of the game, which by definition is a foul? That is a curious statement from the coach.
Maybe (and I was not there), the coach meant to play tough, tug the occasional shirt, and play a bit more like the games we often see on TV. Maybe. The problem is the players at U13 are simply not mature enough to grasp the difference in what he is saying, and playing to injure. Or, maybe he is saying play to injure opponents.
I don’t think coaches should teach fouling, players can figure that out on their own.
There is a difference in teaching players to play to injure, what we would often refer to as playing dirty, and teaching players to tug a shirt, and play a bit more on the physical side-which can lead to more fouls, yet not to injury.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 15:19:04 GMT -5
I've seen this alot though, when our teams played atlanta united's younger sides for example, we were soft. Refused to play physical, and got pushed off the ball with ease. Never stuck in to set the tone. They were the aggressor and we played like we were scared. I'm not encouraging dirty play, but you can't be afraid to make some body contact, and occasionally that means commit some hard fouls. Not necessarily dirty, but a good ole fashioned hard foul to remind the opposition you are there etc.
I would never condone taking a player out from behind though, too often I see it, and its too dangerous and players rarely get penalized the way the should.
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Post by Keeper on Mar 6, 2018 19:38:53 GMT -5
Yes you coach players to make smart fouls. You coach them to make contact while defending because Soccer is a contact sport but how much contact is to much? Only it’s Referee discretion on that. So yeah sometimes the physical contact can be to much since it’s referee discretion. And for a soft team you probably prefer them to go harder then softer since they’re already timid.
Also if the balls going out of bounds or to the GK do you shield the other team away from the ball by using body contact? Because by definition that’s a foul but we always coach to do it. Same for say a breakaway when the defender is beat but the play is not in the box, most coaches will tell the defender to foul to stop the quick transition and give away a free kick from far away. But no one is saying you need to go slide tackle studs up, just a simple push off the ball will do. Same as in basketball when a player is going unopposed to the basket, players are coached to foul to avoid the easy goal/bucket.
So yes you coach them to foul because you’re coaching them to win. But you’re coaching them to break a rule, not severely injure a player. You said you only got “the gist” of what the coach was saying but there could be a lot more that was missed that only his players and parents got.
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Post by soccerdaddy on Mar 6, 2018 22:26:57 GMT -5
Players will continue to foul for strategy as they get older and watch more professional matches. All professional players in matches are purposely taking yellow or red cards to stop a goal scoring or advancing opportunity. They obviously look to be very intentional and is a part of the game. The teams expect this. I’m positive you’ll see intentional fouls in the world cup in 100 days 😃 Rarely do they purposely hurt / injure. If so, they get punished immediately, straight Red.
However, on a youth soccer level, it irritates me that Georgia Soccer penalizes the entire TEAM by taking away team points for card accumulation during games. 2 unintentional yellows for aggressive play and maybe an intentional hand ball and the team takes a 5 point deduction. Why this rule and who else does this? I agree with penalizing a straight red for trying to purposely injure but I don’t agree with taking points away for aggressive unintentional fouling. So, I don’t agree with intentional fouling at the Academy age but in High School they are already doing it for strategy. GA Soccer should not penalize a team’s accumulated points. Make an example out of the player who intentionally tried to hurt another. Intentional fouling Is a part of the game when winning matters.
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Post by Keeper on Mar 7, 2018 0:01:53 GMT -5
However, on a youth soccer level, it irritates me that Georgia Soccer penalizes the entire TEAM by taking away team points for card accumulation during games. 2 unintentional yellows for aggressive play and maybe an intentional hand ball and the team takes a 5 point deduction. Why this rule and who else does this? Actually there’s no point deduction for yellow cards and if a team has less then 5 points deducted in the season then those points aren’t lost for standings. Look at Rule 740.1 for clarification.
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Post by soccerdaddy on Mar 7, 2018 5:57:10 GMT -5
However, on a youth soccer level, it irritates me that Georgia Soccer penalizes the entire TEAM by taking away team points for card accumulation during games. 2 unintentional yellows for aggressive play and maybe an intentional hand ball and the team takes a 5 point deduction. Why this rule and who else does this? Actually there’s no point deduction for yellow cards and if a team has less then 5 points deducted in the season then those points aren’t lost for standings. Look at Rule 740.1 for clarification. I was referring to 2 yellow is a Red or 1 Red for intentional handball. Why is it a rule and does any other league follow the same, I don’t think so because its a made up rule. Sorry, but I think it’s just unnecessary.
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