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Post by soccerspin on Oct 8, 2018 16:18:12 GMT -5
Since it looks like a couple ODP coaches read this forum, I wanted to post the following questions regarding the most recent ODP tryouts:
For the u13 boys (2006), we had the following occur:
At least one boy from the 2005 ODP Region Camp (he is an 06) did NOT make the initial cut. He's from a group of 06s chosen in early June (post ODP NC tournament) to join the 05 Region Camp held in mid-July. Roughly 25% of the 06 pool went.
At least one boy from the 2005 ODP Region Pool (he is an 06) did NOT make the initial cut. He was chosen at the end of the mid-July 05 Region Camp to be a part of this season's (2018-19) ODP 2005 Region Pool. (He has since been added to the ODP 06 team for this season.)
Boys were pulled aside during the tryout and asked who from their team was on the ODP squad last year versus who wasn't.
Is this unusual at all?
Now I know there's a whole set of new coaches versus the ones who managed the 06s last year, but if nothing else, shouldn't the new coaches have some idea going in which of the 06s were a part of the above two groups? Given the program coached them for an entire year and determined they were the top 25% of the group this past summer, wouldn't there be a desire to try and keep these boys a part of the program for the next season? (by making sure the next set of coaches know who they are) Or, is the desire to truly start anew (clean slate) each year?
Would love to have a better understanding of this process by the ODP coaching team if possible. Thank you.
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Post by surgesoccer on Oct 8, 2018 21:09:24 GMT -5
At our age they were very focussed on size.
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Post by soccerspin on Oct 8, 2018 21:22:34 GMT -5
Yep, definitely noticed that same shift for us as well. But not across the board. Still had at least 20% of the boys selected that were the smallest out there. (Roughly 25 total were chosen on tryout day). But, they had very fast, skilled feet so certainly understood those selections.
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Post by atv on Oct 9, 2018 11:11:51 GMT -5
ODP typically focuses on quick feet, first touch, etc. Hence the younger age groups actually seem to end up with a lot of smaller players with a lower center of gravity. Last year the 2005 boys ODP team was not big and had a lot of smaller players. I haven’t watched them this year. I suspect their average stature is on the small side again.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Oct 9, 2018 12:04:09 GMT -5
ODP typically focuses on quick feet, first touch, etc. Hence the younger age groups actually seem to end up with a lot of smaller players with a lower center of gravity. Last year the 2005 boys ODP team was not big and had a lot of smaller players. I haven’t watched them this year. I suspect their average stature is on the small side again. Based on some of the ones that were at the AU training grounds this past Friday I would have to concur with you.
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Post by jash on Oct 9, 2018 16:02:15 GMT -5
Don't be defensive-minded.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 9, 2018 16:05:35 GMT -5
We had 2 kids who were invited to region camp ( when only 20 kids went vs the entire age group) not make the team when originally announced. Upon immediately speaking with the staff it was an accidental oversight.
That being said - still no guarantees from year to year regardless of what level a kid makes.
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Post by touchlinedad on Oct 10, 2018 11:20:17 GMT -5
Don't be defensive-minded. Oh, ain't that the truth. I still am thoroughly annoyed by the attitude of Jacob Daniels, director of coaching at Georgia Soccer, wrote the following about ODP: "At our State Tryouts, we look for the most skillful players. Since the most skillful players tend to be attackers and central midfielders at the club level, 80% of our state pool players are typically attacker type of players. So we have to convert some of the attackers into defenders. We use the first part of the year to evaluate the players and see which ones are best suited to playing in the back." To this day, I am astonished by this. Maybe the most skillful players tend to be attackers and central midfielders. Why would you shoehorn a kid who is an attacker into center back? I would absolutely LOVE to know what criteria they use to see which attackers are best suited to playing in the back. Defenders need a different skill set than an attacking midfielder. There's no way Michael Parkhurst could be an attacking midfielder for Atlanta United. But despite his age and lack of speed, he is a rock in the back because of the way he reads the game and anticipates what is going to happen. A team needs skillful players in all positions but I'm betting great center backs and defensive midfielders aren't created out of former attacking midfielders.
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Post by soccernotfootball on Oct 10, 2018 11:55:29 GMT -5
Don't be defensive-minded. Oh, ain't that the truth. I still am thoroughly annoyed by the attitude of Jacob Daniels, director of coaching at Georgia Soccer, wrote the following about ODP: "At our State Tryouts, we look for the most skillful players. Since the most skillful players tend to be attackers and central midfielders at the club level, 80% of our state pool players are typically attacker type of players. So we have to convert some of the attackers into defenders. We use the first part of the year to evaluate the players and see which ones are best suited to playing in the back." To this day, I am astonished by this. Maybe the most skillful players tend to be attackers and central midfielders. Why would you shoehorn a kid who is an attacker into center back? I would absolutely LOVE to know what criteria they use to see which attackers are best suited to playing in the back. Defenders need a different skill set than an attacking midfielder. There's no way Michael Parkhurst could be an attacking midfielder for Atlanta United. But despite his age and lack of speed, he is a rock in the back because of the way he reads the game and anticipates what is going to happen. A team needs skillful players in all positions but I'm betting great center backs and defensive midfielders aren't created out of former attacking midfielders. Playing the devil's advocate here... How many "elite" players, say U17 NT caliber and higher - college, pro, etc., played forward or midfield growing up? It may be pretty common that attackers are chosen to move to higher levels. I think the key there may be "most skillful".
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Post by atv on Oct 10, 2018 12:21:26 GMT -5
Having a girl and boy on ODP for a few years I can say there is an oversupply of forwards and midfielders. Definitely a lack of centerbacks. Some holding mids spend time at centerback,, wingers at outside back. That kind of thing. Anyway, no opinion here, just an observation.
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Post by jash on Oct 10, 2018 17:27:41 GMT -5
How many "elite" players, say U17 NT caliber and higher - college, pro, etc., played forward or midfield growing up? It may be pretty common that attackers are chosen to move to higher levels. I think the key there may be "most skillful". I think that is the tail wagging the dog: the club system sees ODP, DA, colleges recruit forwards and midfielders only and convert them into defenders. So they think a highly skilled player should never be put in the back (and if they care about that kid's future in those USA-based systems, they're probably right).
But when I watch the USMNT the one area I see lacking more than any other is defense. Consistently and glaringly. That speaks volumes to me about the "success" of this strategy in our country.
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Post by soccernotfootball on Oct 10, 2018 17:51:45 GMT -5
How many "elite" players, say U17 NT caliber and higher - college, pro, etc., played forward or midfield growing up? It may be pretty common that attackers are chosen to move to higher levels. I think the key there may be "most skillful". I think that is the tail wagging the dog: the club system sees ODP, DA, colleges recruit forwards and midfielders only and convert them into defenders. So they think a highly skilled player should never be put in the back (and if they care about that kid's future in those USA-based systems, they're probably right).
But when I watch the USMNT the one area I see lacking more than any other is defense. Consistently and glaringly. That speaks volumes to me about the "success" of this strategy in our country.
I'm not saying the highly skilled players are never placed in the back. I'm saying the opposite. They pick the highly skilled player regardless of position. It just so happens that those players tend to be attack-minded (my bet would be mainly midfielders, less "strikers" or forwards). From a coaching perspective, moving skilled mids to the backline would seem to make sense.
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Post by daddyo on Oct 11, 2018 10:57:37 GMT -5
I haven't seen many attacking midfielders/ forwards that were outstanding defenders.
Jacob has been around a long time, I think the ODP system in general needs a change and that change should be at the top. One with a vision that passes down to the coaches and they work together to accomplish this Vision.
Also, please remember that these club coaches are going to put their players in the positions they play at their club. This benefits them greatly and keeps their players coming back to their club while they get a chance to recruit within the system.
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 11, 2018 11:59:52 GMT -5
I haven't seen many attacking midfielders/ forwards that were outstanding defenders. Jacob has been around a long time, I think the ODP system in general needs a change and that change should be at the top. One with a vision that passes down to the coaches and they work together to accomplish this Vision. Also, please remember that these club coaches are going to put their players in the positions they play at their club. This benefits them greatly and keeps their players coming back to their club while they get a chance to recruit within the system. I'll have to disagree. I've been involved with youth soccer for qute a few years, and I've seen a ton of great attacking players who are also great defenders. In quite a few games, I've seen coaches, late in the game with the lead, take a forward or midfielder and put him/her in the back to try and secure the win. One of the top players on my oldest daughter's team plays CB about half the game and ACM the other half. My youngest daughter and a few of the other top players on her team regularly play positions in all 3 lines (of course this is Academy, but the top players make an impact wherever they are). There are certainly some exceptions, some FWDs don't defend well, but based on my experience/observation, I'd say that is the exception rather than the rule.
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Post by soccernotfootball on Oct 11, 2018 12:04:56 GMT -5
I haven't seen many attacking midfielders/ forwards that were outstanding defenders. Jacob has been around a long time, I think the ODP system in general needs a change and that change should be at the top. One with a vision that passes down to the coaches and they work together to accomplish this Vision. Also, please remember that these club coaches are going to put their players in the positions they play at their club. This benefits them greatly and keeps their players coming back to their club while they get a chance to recruit within the system. I'll have to disagree. I've been involved with youth soccer for qute a few years, and I've seen a ton of great attacking players who are also great defenders. In quite a few games, I've seen coaches, late in the game with the lead, take a forward or midfielder and put him/her in the back to try and secure the win. One of the top players on my oldest daughter's team plays CB about half the game and ACM the other half. My youngest daughter and a few of the other top players on her team regularly play positions in all 3 lines (of course this is Academy, but the top players make an impact wherever they are). There are certainly some exceptions, some FWDs don't defend well, but based on my experience/observation, I'd say that is the exception rather than the rule. Additionally, w/ just a quick google search, you'd find most of the top backs in the world played as mids/forwards in their youths. As I said before, I think the keywords coming from Jacob (in regards to ODP) and any coach is finding the most "skillful".
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Post by touchlinedad on Oct 11, 2018 12:08:31 GMT -5
I'm fine with picking highly skilled players. But my point is that defense is a mindset. You pick a bunch of kids who are forwards or attacking midfielders and you are more than likely going to have a team consisting of a bunch of ballhogs who will lean toward dribbling out of every situation. I bet every adult who played soccer and basketball in their youth can remember being on a team with one or two kids who just would not defend to save their life. All they wanted to do was score. So there were always a couple of players who were mindful that you had to have defense because they remembered the object of the game is to score more than your opponent. And if you don't let your opponent score, you usually end up winning. I don't see why the coaches at ODP tryouts are unable to find those players who have that mindset. My personal opinion is that it's just lazy coaching. From what I can tell, defense in soccer is an afterthought at the youth level. Just find some big kids, stick them in the back and tell them to boot the ball. And I think that reflects an overall American mindset that favors offense in almost every sport. As the old Nike commercial goes, "Chicks dig the long ball."
I'm all for creative, attacking soccer and I don't care for teams that are overly defensive. But any team that does not have a solid defense is never going to win anything. I made this point when the U.S. failed to qualify for the World Cup. The reason we didn't qualify is not solely because of a weak offense. We failed to qualify because we let other teams score goals in too many games that led to defeats, the Trinidad & Tobago game being the prime example. If you look at all the teams that qualified for the World Cup, those teams were not always the ones that scored the most goals. But they all had the fewest goals allowed.
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Post by olderthandirt on Oct 11, 2018 13:25:47 GMT -5
I'm fine with picking highly skilled players. But my point is that defense is a mindset. You pick a bunch of kids who are forwards or attacking midfielders and you are more than likely going to have a team consisting of a bunch of ballhogs who will lean toward dribbling out of every situation. I bet every adult who played soccer and basketball in their youth can remember being on a team with one or two kids who just would not defend to save their life. All they wanted to do was score. So there were always a couple of players who were mindful that you had to have defense because they remembered the object of the game is to score more than your opponent. And if you don't let your opponent score, you usually end up winning. I don't see why the coaches at ODP tryouts are unable to find those players who have that mindset. My personal opinion is that it's just lazy coaching. From what I can tell, defense in soccer is an afterthought at the youth level. Just find some big kids, stick them in the back and tell them to boot the ball. And I think that reflects an overall American mindset that favors offense in almost every sport. As the old Nike commercial goes, "Chicks dig the long ball." I'm all for creative, attacking soccer and I don't care for teams that are overly defensive. But any team that does not have a solid defense is never going to win anything. I made this point when the U.S. failed to qualify for the World Cup. The reason we didn't qualify is not solely because of a weak offense. We failed to qualify because we let other teams score goals in too many games that led to defeats, the Trinidad & Tobago game being the prime example. If you look at all the teams that qualified for the World Cup, those teams were not always the ones that scored the most goals. But they all had the fewest goals allowed. From my experience with youth soccer, limited though it is, the best players on a club team are often excellent players at almost every position on the field. I recall a girl several years ago who was invited to several national camps and was selected to play in the midfield in a couple of games with youth national teams. This young lady was, by far, the best player on her club team at every position including goalkeeper. And before you go thinking that she was just a great player on a poor team, her club team won either 3 or 4 State Championships (I'm old, I don't remember).
I expect that a lot of the really top players fell into this category while playing as kids and only settled into a particular position when they got to the top ranks of the game.
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Post by daddyo on Oct 12, 2018 9:20:18 GMT -5
Ive been involved in Youth soccer around Atlanta for over 16 years and coached 10 of those years. Yes, there are some players that are the very best skilled players on the field in whatever position you put them in. However, this is not the norm. The very best attacking players I've ever had were the laziest defenders I've ever seen and we kept them out of the back bc they dribble too much and lose the ball in the back, which is the worst possible scenario a coach can have.
I was told this a long time ago. You have 11 players on the field and they all can't be warriors, you have to have a few magicians, jesters and expert archers. The warriors go in the back obviously.
It wasn't too many state cups ago when I was watching a highly competitive game when the attacking mid kept losing the ball and not trying to win it back or defend up top when the CB and Holding mid screamed at him to start playing defense up front. The AM yelled back, I'm an attacking mid, I don't have to play defense. The coach did not utter a single word.
If I could of only coached that AM for one day, he would of been sitting beside me on the bench getting the lecture of his lifetime and either accepting his clearly defined role or he would never see the field again as an AM for me.
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Post by olderthandirt on Oct 12, 2018 10:37:30 GMT -5
Ive been involved in Youth soccer around Atlanta for over 16 years and coached 10 of those years. Yes, there are some players that are the very best skilled players on the field in whatever position you put them in. However, this is not the norm. The very best attacking players I've ever had were the laziest defenders I've ever seen and we kept them out of the back bc they dribble too much and lose the ball in the back, which is the worst possible scenario a coach can have. I was told this a long time ago. You have 11 players on the field and they all can't be warriors, you have to have a few magicians, jesters and expert archers. The warriors go in the back obviously. It wasn't too many state cups ago when I was watching a highly competitive game when the attacking mid kept losing the ball and not trying to win it back or defend up top when the CB and Holding mid screamed at him to start playing defense up front. The AM yelled back, I'm an attacking mid, I don't have to play defense. The coach did not utter a single word. If I could of only coached that AM for one day, he would of been sitting beside me on the bench getting the lecture of his lifetime and either accepting his clearly defined role or he would never see the field again as an AM for me. While I don't doubt your experience for a minute, the fact that you acknowledge that "there are some players that are the very best skilled players on the field in whatever position you put them in" supports my point. At the highest levels of soccer, my contention is that most of the players were of this type when they were kids.
Your point about warriors vs. magicians, jesters and expert archers is apt as well. While at the lower levels, you certainly have a mix, the higher the level that you consider, the larger percentage of warriors that you'll see on a team. By the time that you get to the very highest levels, all that you'll ever see are the warriors.
In my experience, most of these "warrior type" players tend to play in the midfield as youth players. Then when they move up in level they tend to get placed in other areas of the field where their skills are best utilized by the coach of the team for which they are playing.
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Post by alacrity174 on Oct 15, 2018 16:09:47 GMT -5
Ive been involved in Youth soccer around Atlanta for over 16 years and coached 10 of those years. Yes, there are some players that are the very best skilled players on the field in whatever position you put them in. However, this is not the norm. The very best attacking players I've ever had were the laziest defenders I've ever seen and we kept them out of the back bc they dribble too much and lose the ball in the back, which is the worst possible scenario a coach can have. I was told this a long time ago. You have 11 players on the field and they all can't be warriors, you have to have a few magicians, jesters and expert archers. The warriors go in the back obviously. It wasn't too many state cups ago when I was watching a highly competitive game when the attacking mid kept losing the ball and not trying to win it back or defend up top when the CB and Holding mid screamed at him to start playing defense up front. The AM yelled back, I'm an attacking mid, I don't have to play defense. The coach did not utter a single word. If I could of only coached that AM for one day, he would of been sitting beside me on the bench getting the lecture of his lifetime and either accepting his clearly defined role or he would never see the field again as an AM for me. While I don't doubt your experience for a minute, the fact that you acknowledge that "there are some players that are the very best skilled players on the field in whatever position you put them in" supports my point. At the highest levels of soccer, my contention is that most of the players were of this type when they were kids.
Your point about warriors vs. magicians, jesters and expert archers is apt as well. While at the lower levels, you certainly have a mix, the higher the level that you consider, the larger percentage of warriors that you'll see on a team. By the time that you get to the very highest levels, all that you'll ever see are the warriors.
In my experience, most of these "warrior type" players tend to play in the midfield as youth players. Then when they move up in level they tend to get placed in other areas of the field where their skills are best utilized by the coach of the team for which they are playing.
How wuld you feel about having Josef Martinez and Barco play defense for ATL UTD? Supposedly among the most skillful on the team but would make terrible defenders. Personally I believe it is very short sighted to say all attacking players are more skillful than all defenders or even that this is the majority.
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Post by mistergrinch on Oct 15, 2018 22:31:38 GMT -5
How wuld you feel about having Josef Martinez and Barco play defense for ATL UTD? Supposedly among the most skillful on the team but would make terrible defenders. Personally I believe it is very short sighted to say all attacking players are more skillful than all defenders or even that this is the majority. Well, in Barco's case, he seems to make a terrible attacker as well. All sizzle, no steak.
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Post by ga3v3 on Oct 16, 2018 14:30:01 GMT -5
Family’s been involved with GA odp for 3 years and unfortunately choices are by each individual age groups coaches and will vary greatly from coach to coach. In our experience in two different boys age groups, the majority of players chosen typically play in the center midfield(6,8,10) for their club team with the rest fairly evenly split between atackers and defenders. Both of our players play completely different positions in their pool vs club teams and thouroughly enjoy the change. At this point in the youth soccer landscape, ODP is nothing more than extra competitive practice with similarly skilled players and a way to make new friends outside their current club.
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Post by soccerdad76 on Oct 26, 2018 11:04:46 GMT -5
A question about ODP tryouts: After watching from afar last year, it looks like some clubs have ID sessions in the fall which allow for players to make an exempt list for tryouts the following September, and gives them access to 8 or so August practice sessions with those on that exempt list. There were also open preliminary tryouts in early September in which a player could attend ONE session in order to make it to the final state tryout in late September. My son is a 2008 / u11 player, so this is all starting now-ish for him. However, he is at a club that does not actively participate with the ODP program. My ultimate question is... are there any open ID sessions for kids at any club leading up to the August/September practices sessions and tryouts, particularly in the fall? It would seem to be that kids on the exempt list would have a huge advantage getting exposure to the ODP coaches during the club session(s) in the fall, followed by the practices in the summer. Those without get one evening at prelims to make a good impression and have much less exposure to the coaches in general. I've been told that all (or at least the vast majority) of the selected players from the 2007 pool were on the exempt list, so it seems kind of important. Thanks!
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Post by newposter on Oct 26, 2018 16:55:38 GMT -5
I'd encourage you to contact Georgia Soccer. When my kid was younger they went to a summer ID camp and put on the exempt list. More importantly, the coaches saw them play more because of it.
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