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Post by soccermaxx72 on Jan 29, 2019 14:19:58 GMT -5
So I think most here will agree that the quality of competition and coaching for middle school and high school soccer is very poor. Don't get me wrong SOME high school coaches are also local club coaches and they are good but that is not the norm. Despite this, there is something to be said for school spirit and the connection to your local community since most competitive girls travel beyond their local school district for their club teams.
This year we chose to go the ECNL route to keep the option of playing school sports available. Unfortunately our club teams practice time is in an earlier practice slot which when factoring in driving from school to club has now made it impossible to play for the school.
Has anyone else run into this same problem and what has been your experience with the school coaches? To me I would think any knowledgeable school coach would want to fill their team with ECNL players even if they have a few players missing some practice. To be clear, we had talked to school coach, pledged to make all games and to make atleast one practice per week at minimum.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 29, 2019 15:43:27 GMT -5
Is your kid middle school or a U15 in HS? Looks like for Georgia ECNL sides at U16 and above that aside from some makeup games they just have the Houston showcase.
So the coach didn't accept your terms? If I'm the coach, I'd say do 2 days of practice with the HS team (so 2 with ECNL) and you've got a deal.
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Post by SoccerMom on Jan 29, 2019 16:36:27 GMT -5
I thought ECNL was over for HS age kids
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Post by olderthandirt on Jan 29, 2019 16:39:13 GMT -5
So I think most here will agree that the quality of competition and coaching for middle school and high school soccer is very poor. Don't get me wrong SOME high school coaches are also local club coaches and they are good but that is not the norm. Despite this, there is something to be said for school spirit and the connection to your local community since most competitive girls travel beyond their local school district for their club teams. This year we chose to go the ECNL route to keep the option of playing school sports available. Unfortunately our club teams practice time is in an earlier practice slot which when factoring in driving from school to club has now made it impossible to play for the school. Has anyone else run into this same problem and what has been your experience with the school coaches? To me I would think any knowledgeable school coach would want to fill their team with ECNL players even if they have a few players missing some practice. To be clear, we had talked to school coach, pledged to make all games and to make atleast one practice per week at minimum. I don't know you or your daughter, but I just can't imagine why a coach wouldn't just beg to have your daughter grace his/her team ...
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Post by soccermaxx72 on Jan 29, 2019 16:44:13 GMT -5
Is your kid middle school or a U15 in HS? Looks like for Georgia ECNL sides at U16 and above that aside from some makeup games they just have the Houston showcase. So the coach didn't accept your terms? If I'm the coach, I'd say do 2 days of practice with the HS team (so 2 with ECNL) and you've got a deal. We didn't try to set any terms, we were actually honest and told them that their year long ECNL was already in place but would love to do middle school as well if it would work. The response was, must show to all practices or would not make the team.
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Post by rocko1989 on Jan 29, 2019 16:47:12 GMT -5
What did the school coach say? How many ECNL matches do you have left to play this Spring? It could be that both coaches might be willing to give a little.
Saying that, I do know some high school coaches, regardless of sport, say if you cannot be at every practice, meeting, and game day breakfast, then we don't want you. I get that they want camaraderie. I get that they want to make sure the player is in tune with the school program and all that.
In our local middle school, a basketball player missed one practice for a very big dance recital. This was not sprung on the coach at the last minute, the player told the coach several weeks prior to the conflict. The coach made the player run essentially the entire practice next day as a punishment.
Some coaches might not want to deal with other kids missing for other, less valid, reasons.
Some coaches would listen to the proposal, and work with the player and family-recognizing the higher quality training opportunity afforded players at most clubs teams over most school programs. Our local high school and middle school soccer coaches essentially told our daughter as long as she was at games, it was fine for her to miss practices at the school for club practice. We live in a very soccer poor area, and these coaches had the sense to make this allowance. We have not taken them up on that, because that is not how we do things, and we have not had the conflicts others have had.
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Post by SoccerMom on Jan 29, 2019 16:50:39 GMT -5
Middle school???
Your daughter didn't play DA to play Middle School soccer?
How is this even a discussion? Middle School is a major waste of time (I played it), a lot of schools don't even have a team.
I have to agree with the coach though, if you cant make the practices, why should your daughter get to play over girls that are 💯% committed.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 29, 2019 17:01:37 GMT -5
We live in a very soccer poor area, and these coaches had the sense to make this allowance. We have not taken them up on that, because that is not how we do things, and we have not had the conflicts others have had. Thankfully we live in a smaller area (I think the HS are AAAA), when mine is there in a few years, I would assume the HS coach would make that concession for showcases and whatnot. Her MS coach I don't think would care too much, but they practice from 3:45-5:15, so its not a big deal making 7 PM club practice.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 29, 2019 17:07:48 GMT -5
Is your kid middle school or a U15 in HS? Looks like for Georgia ECNL sides at U16 and above that aside from some makeup games they just have the Houston showcase. So the coach didn't accept your terms? If I'm the coach, I'd say do 2 days of practice with the HS team (so 2 with ECNL) and you've got a deal. We didn't try to set any terms, we were actually honest and told them that their year long ECNL was already in place but would love to do middle school as well if it would work. The response was, must show to all practices or would not make the team. Pretty ridiculous for the coach to not see that the MS soccer is an inferior product. Is the coach also a club coach? I've watched my daughter's MS team practice...the practice took me back to the rec days and drills I'd give rec players, even though over half of the girls on the MS team are club players.
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Post by fanatic21 on Jan 29, 2019 17:16:47 GMT -5
Interesting. My daughter's middle school team doesn't even have practice (said they may do 1 or 2 before the first game but that's it). Coach said she totally understands if kids miss games for club practice, if club coach won't let them miss or if missing might jeapordize their playing time on the club team.
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Post by mistergrinch on Jan 30, 2019 9:04:53 GMT -5
Mine played middle school one year and it was a trainwreck.. a few club players and some who didn't know how to put shin guards into their socks. She didn't do it again. That said, the coach was happy to let her make it when she could make it - he knew she was training with a club team.
As for the HS coaches.. seems like a lot of self-importance. Flexing power because they can. Unless you're playing for a Lambert/Milton kind of good school team (which is pretty much all club players), HS quality is generally crap and the kids are playing because they want to play for their school.
Those who go to small schools (or hybrid schools, or homeschooled) are pretty much screwed.
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Post by Strikermom on Jan 30, 2019 9:29:24 GMT -5
Again, not sure why you are still having club practice if your kid is in high school. Club play is pretty much done except for few outlier ECNL games. Gwinnett doesn't have middle school teams as of yet, although many schools have clubs teams now are that trying to get sanctioned.
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Post by soccernotfootball on Jan 30, 2019 9:43:19 GMT -5
If a player is going to all of the school practices and games, they should get preference over the club player that only makes practices ~when they can~. It shouldn't matter if they are getting better training at club or if they are the better player. The player that is fully committed to the school team has earned the time.
And it doesn't matter if MS and HS is the "inferior product". As a parent, you should send the message of commitment to your little Johnny or Jill.
Maybe you can't play everything no matter how fun it may be. Sometimes you just have to choose where you want the time to be spent.
If the situation was reversed, you would be bizatching about the fact your kid sat on the bench while the favored club player ~who never comes to practice~ got all the playing time.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 30, 2019 12:51:32 GMT -5
If the situation was reversed, you would be bizatching about the fact your kid sat on the bench while the favored club player ~who never comes to practice~ got all the playing time. There is likely some truth in this. But I would think the point of school sports is winning, not development. If the goal is to win, I'd think that putting your best 11 on the field as much of the time as possible is the clearest path to that goal. And the difference is that they're missing team practice for other soccer practice, not drama club or some other extracurricular activity. But I see your point from the coach's point of view. Lastly, one would think top club players would set themselves so far apart in the practices they do attend that the coach would have no choice but to play them.
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Post by atv on Jan 30, 2019 12:54:50 GMT -5
Regarding Middle School Soccer. IMO, if the coach makes demands that are unreasonable, just let them know it’s probably not going to work out. They will fill the spot with some rec kid. Nothing loss as the coaching is not good and the chance of injury is avoided.
For High School soccer, all leagues except for DA are modeled to play the High School soccer season. Some high level club teams practice year round but in most cases players seem to be able to work it out.
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Post by soccernotfootball on Jan 30, 2019 13:19:59 GMT -5
If the situation was reversed, you would be bizatching about the fact your kid sat on the bench while the favored club player ~who never comes to practice~ got all the playing time. There is likely some truth in this. But I would think the point of school sports is winning, not development. If the goal is to win, I'd think that putting your best 11 on the field as much of the time as possible is the clearest path to that goal. And the difference is that they're missing team practice for other soccer practice, not drama club or some other extracurricular activity. But I see your point from the coach's point of view. Lastly, one would think top club players would set themselves so far apart in the practices they do attend that the coach would have no choice but to play them.
I'm not talking about development. Sure, everyone wants to win. However, most of the teacher/coach staff at schools also want to showcase commitment and learning life lessons. It shouldn't matter if it's club soccer or drama club - if a kid chooses that activity, great. The coach and you, as a parent, should let your kid know they don't deserve time over someone who chooses to make the school team a priority. Period. Priorities. Commitment. People have to make choices all the time. If little Johnny or Jill prioritizes the club team over the school team, you should be managing their expectations.
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Post by OTPSoccer on Jan 30, 2019 15:27:14 GMT -5
Our middle school team only has a few practices before the season and then no practices during the season. The coach is clear that commitments to your club team come first. And they carry a large roster to help manage the conflicts that will occur.
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Post by soccermaxx72 on Jan 30, 2019 15:41:40 GMT -5
Our middle school team only has a few practices before the season and then no practices during the season. The coach is clear that commitments to your club team come first. And they carry a large roster to help manage the conflicts that will occur. that seems to be a reasonable response, although I do understand the concept of commitment but obviously these level of girls are already familiar with commitment.
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Post by fridge on Jan 30, 2019 16:03:25 GMT -5
If a player is going to all of the school practices and games, they should get preference over the club player that only makes practices ~when they can~. It shouldn't matter if they are getting better training at club or if they are the better player. The player that is fully committed to the school team has earned the time. And it doesn't matter if MS and HS is the "inferior product". As a parent, you should send the message of commitment to your little Johnny or Jill. Maybe you can't play everything no matter how fun it may be. Sometimes you just have to choose where you want the time to be spent. If the situation was reversed, you would be bizatching about the fact your kid sat on the bench while the favored club player ~who never comes to practice~ got all the playing time. I think what you raised is an interesting question. In sum, "Should non club kids who go to all the HS practices get preference over club kids who miss practice due to club practice." I struggle with this but I think it is much more gray. I actually did my first string a couple weeks ago about HS coaches should "chill out." My belief is that the coach does make the rules and if he/she says "If you don't come to practice, you don't play." Then, that is the rule. HOWEVER, a reasonable coach would not have such a rule. Let's face it, this is really about fairness--is it fair that a club kid who misses a HS practice play over a lesser player who has perfect HS practice attendance. A reasonable coach could tell the rest of the players, "Guys, I know Suzy has missed several HS practices for club, but she has a commitment to finish the club season. And, while you all were playing Frisbee and at the lake in August and September and going to UGa football games in October and November, she practiced 3 or 4 times a week and played 25 games. So, I think she has shown her commitment to soccer and that she will make us a better team. She in fact is playing soccer when she misses our practices. So, I hope you all would agree that this is a fair decision for all." Any dissenters?
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Post by olderthandirt on Jan 30, 2019 16:24:19 GMT -5
If a player is going to all of the school practices and games, they should get preference over the club player that only makes practices ~when they can~. It shouldn't matter if they are getting better training at club or if they are the better player. The player that is fully committed to the school team has earned the time. And it doesn't matter if MS and HS is the "inferior product". As a parent, you should send the message of commitment to your little Johnny or Jill. Maybe you can't play everything no matter how fun it may be. Sometimes you just have to choose where you want the time to be spent. If the situation was reversed, you would be bizatching about the fact your kid sat on the bench while the favored club player ~who never comes to practice~ got all the playing time. I think what you raised is an interesting question. In sum, "Should non club kids who go to all the HS practices get preference over club kids who miss practice due to club practice." I struggle with this but I think it is much more gray. I actually did my first string a couple weeks ago about HS coaches should "chill out." My belief is that the coach does make the rules and if he/she says "If you don't come to practice, you don't play." Then, that is the rule. HOWEVER, a reasonable coach would not have such a rule. Let's face it, this is really about fairness--is it fair that a club kid who misses a HS practice play over a lesser player who has perfect HS practice attendance. A reasonable coach could tell the rest of the players, "Guys, I know Suzy has missed several HS practices for club, but she has a commitment to finish the club season. And, while you all were playing Frisbee and at the lake in August and September and going to UGa football games in October and November, she practiced 3 or 4 times a week and played 25 games. So, I think she has shown her commitment to soccer and that she will make us a better team. She in fact is playing soccer when she misses our practices. So, I hope you all would agree that this is a fair decision for all." Any dissenters? I, for one, will dissent. I was going to bold all of the items in this post with which I have issues, but decided that I didn't want to use up all of the electrons that are allocated to this site. So I chose just one item to comment upon. And I'll make my comment short.
Life isn't fair. Deal with it.
The sooner our children learn this basic life lesson, the better off they will be as adults.
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Post by fridge on Jan 30, 2019 17:18:42 GMT -5
Olderthandirt, I think you actually prove my point. Life is not fair and no where in life does talent take a backseat to "participation." I think it is a unreasonable position for a HS coach to say "if you don't come to HS practice due to club practice, you will not play." I was providing an argument as to why the rule is unreasonable-- and also addressing the "fairness" police.
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Post by olderthandirt on Jan 30, 2019 18:08:56 GMT -5
Olderthandirt, I think you actually prove my point. Life is not fair and no where in life does talent take a backseat to "participation." I think it is a unreasonable position for a HS coach to say "if you don't come to HS practice due to club practice, you will not play." I was providing an argument as to why the rule is unreasonable-- and also addressing the "fairness" police. And yet, you had your "reasonable" coach end his/her statement with the following line: "So, I hope you all would agree that this is a fair decision for all." So, you used "fairness" as the way to prove your point? Uh, OK.
You say "nowhere in life does talent take a backseat to "participation.'" Again, to quote myself, uh, OK.
And you think that it is an "unreasonable position for a HS coach to say 'if you don't come to HS practice due to club practice, you will not play.'" While you and I don't have to agree on our definition of or examples of "unreasonable", I think that it is a perfectly reasonable rule for a coach to have and to enforce. Talent or lack thereof should have nothing to do with it. Let's change the setting of the team from high school to club. Is it reasonable for the club coach to require the players on his/her team to attend practices to play in games? Even if the player who skips practices is more talented than the players who attend every practice? It seems to me that there is a participation rule written into Georgia Soccer rules and regs that deals, in part, with exactly this question.
I don't think I proved your point at all.
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Post by fridge on Jan 30, 2019 18:19:03 GMT -5
Ok Olderthandirt, I asked for dissent and you made some good points--thanks! My last question for you is this--If YOU were a high school coach (and maybe you are), if a club kid misses HS practice for a club practice, would you have the absolute rule that club kid should be punished for the absence (e.g. benched, sprints, kicked off the team, etc)? I think such a rule is unreasonable. Give me your reasoned (and well toned) response! thx!
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Post by soccernotfootball on Jan 30, 2019 19:20:46 GMT -5
Ok Olderthandirt, I asked for dissent and you made some good points--thanks! My last question for you is this--If YOU were a high school coach (and maybe you are), if a club kid misses HS practice for a club practice, would you have the absolute rule that club kid should be punished for the absence (e.g. benched, sprints, kicked off the team, etc)? I think such a rule is unreasonable. Give me your reasoned (and well toned) response! thx! How about this example: Some rockstar mini-Messi/Mia comes to town and joins your club team. This kid, for whatever reason, has a private coach that provides "higher level" coaching and can't make all the club practices. But your club coach knows this kid is quality and since they put in all this extra work over the club kids, they –of course– now have the starting spot and the minutes that come with being the mini-Messi/Mia. Meanwhile, your club kid that has dedicated all of his/her time to the club, and made it a priority, now rides the bench. Does that seem okay to anyone?
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Post by SoccerMom on Jan 31, 2019 0:36:22 GMT -5
I don't care who your kid is. No kid is bigger than the team.
Whether is club or HS, if you don't go to practice, you don't deserve the minutes. Plain and simple.
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Post by olderthandirt on Jan 31, 2019 7:48:39 GMT -5
Ok Olderthandirt, I asked for dissent and you made some good points--thanks! My last question for you is this--If YOU were a high school coach (and maybe you are), if a club kid misses HS practice for a club practice, would you have the absolute rule that club kid should be punished for the absence (e.g. benched, sprints, kicked off the team, etc)? I think such a rule is unreasonable. Give me your reasoned (and well toned) response! thx! Since you asked so nicely …
First off, I am not and have never been a high school soccer coach. I have children who have played high school soccer, I am friends with several men and women who do now or did in the past coach high school soccer, and I have both coached and refereed a different sport.
I don't know that any of the coaches that I know have team rules specific to the high school / club practice issue that you describe, but pretty much all of them have a variation on a rule that covers it: unexcused absence. Excused absences usually include sickness, death or serious illness in the family, another school related activity related to a grade (a band concert as part of a class as opposed to a drama club production as part of a club), and probably a few others that I'm forgetting right now. All other reasons are unexcused and subject to punishment of some sort.
Punishment is usually dependent on the frequency of the offense. I doubt that most of the coaches that I know come down hard on the first offense. Punishments that I do know of include extra running, not starting the next game, not playing in the next game, not playing in more than one game, and (probably) removal from the team. This small sample of coaches that I know are pretty consistent in applying these punishments. One coach that I know actually started a game one player short because there were multiple players who were not allowed to start the next game and, because of injuries to other players, he didn't have enough healthy players who weren't being punished. You can guess that the other players on the team were not too happy with the rule-breakers.
As you might have guessed by now, I agree with these coaches and would punish players who had unexcused absences. And, truth be told, if I were a coach and I knew before I named a team that a player would be missing multiple practices and/or games for reasons that were deemed unexcused, I'd probably cut the player and not have to deal with the issue.
I expect that you and I will not agree on this issue. but there you have it. Sorry for the use of so many electrons ...
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Post by guest on Feb 7, 2019 9:05:37 GMT -5
Boy am I glad I live in Gwinnett where we don’t have to mess with Middle School sports. Play your sports through an athletic organization and let the school provide the education.
And if you think about it, aren’t high school sports (excluding football basketball and baseball) basically a form of club anyway? With soccer you have to pay $$ in dues. That pays the coaches, balls, goals, field mowing, lights, refs, uniforms. Basically everything. The only thing the school provides is an actual plot of land you can use to practice and play games. We even pay for the grass. That’s exactly like our club!
And speaking of fairness in HS soccer, before my child played HS, the coach there was a teacher. He did not know soccer at all but needed the stipend. He had a rule that said freshman don’t play on varsity. OK, there was a senior who did not play club or rec, just HS. This player started over ECNL playing freshman.
What’s up with that? It’s because in HS, it’s not about development or winning/losing. It’s about finding people to help pay for the maintenance of the football field during the spring season.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Feb 7, 2019 10:53:37 GMT -5
That's okay if your school has a JV team. Freshmen should start out JV and if they're good enough start working into the varsity (but keep playing JV). Some schools have rules that seniors are varsity and can't play JV, but IMO that's dumb. Varsity is about winning, not rewarding the oldest.
Nothing wrong with middle school sports. Similarly, in our county, 6th graders cannot play MS sports.
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Post by rudy on Feb 7, 2019 17:07:30 GMT -5
Seniors not eligible for JV per GHSA rules.
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