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Post by SoccerMom on Sept 30, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -5
***THERES A VIDEO ON THE ACTUAL PAGE***A dispute over a call in a soccer match boiled over to the point that a referee brought out a pistol on the field this weekend near the Brazilian city of Belo Horizonte. The referee, who is also a policeman, reportedly felt threatened and wanted to take control of the situation. The referee is meeting with league officials today and could face disciplinary action. Video of the scene has reached social media and YouTube, depicting what a Bleacher Report writer calls "crazy scenes." In the footage shot by a spectator, referee Gabriel Murta, 27, is seen being restrained by another official while he holds his weapon in one hand and points at a team manager with the other. According to media reports in Brazil, Barbosa had been slapped and kicked by a player after he decided not to give a red-card penalty over a foul. The manager and reserve players from the team Amantes da Bola (Lovers of the Ball) also rushed onto the field to argue, according to the G1 Minas Gerais website. A brief snippet of the video seems to show a player running off the field as the armed referee chases after him from about 40 yards away. Giuliano Bozzano, who holds positions with both the Minas Gerais Football Federation and the National Association of Football Referees, says that Murta will attend a meeting along with a psychologist today. Bozzano said, according to Yahoo Sports: " 'On the basis of that conversation and his account of events and the results of the psychological assessment I'll decide what if any measures to take. " 'What's happened is obviously not a common occurrence and I don't want to rush into anything. " 'At the moment it happened he's opted for getting his gun because in his view it was a question of controlling a situation.' " The incident in Minas Gerais comes two years after a Brazilian referee stabbed and killed a player he had ejected from an amateur game. The referee was then killed by angry fans in the crowd. The killings happened in the northeast state of Maranhão, west of Recife. www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/29/444441304/referee-takes-gun-onto-soccer-field-after-spat-with-players-in-brazil
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 1, 2015 7:41:47 GMT -5
not sure if I blame him after the other ref incident where the referee was beheaded....
But after watching that video, that's some scary stuff. Probably a unique situation given he is a policeman, but something needs to be changed in brazil!
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 1, 2015 8:00:41 GMT -5
not sure if I blame him after the other ref incident where the referee was beheaded.... But after watching that video, that's some scary stuff. Probably a unique situation given he is a policeman, but something needs to be changed in brazil! I can't help but wonder if something needs to be changed worldwide for Soccer Refs. Calls seem to be pretty subjective and refs allowed to call things based on their subjective thoughts about a play. It would be good to see GA soccer take ownership of refs rather than having clubs provide refs. Then you eliminate some of the 'club' ref mentality and possibly increase the skill of the refs and reduce player/spectator frustration due to a lack of true accountability for refs. And for the ref who was beheaded - wasn't he the one who was beheaded after he stabbed/killed a player or is that a different one?
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 1, 2015 8:12:47 GMT -5
Correct -- The slayings began after the 20-year-old referee, Otavio Jordao da Silva, expelled player Josemir Santos Abreu, 31, from an amateur match in the small town of Centro do Meio, in the northern state of Maranhao. Angered by the expulsion, Abreu threw Silva to the ground. As he rose, Silva pulled a knife and stabbed Abreu in the chest, Costa said, and the player died on the way to the hospital. Players and spectators then rushed Silva, tying him up by his arms and legs while Souza hit him over the head with a spike and then broke the bottle on his face. One of the suspects being sought, a man nicknamed 'Pirolo,' then took the knife that had been used to stab Abreu and stabbed the referee in the neck, said Costa. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357453/Brazilian-referee-beheaded-Angry-fans-head-stake-stabbing-player.html#ixzz3nJzzDHbG Follow us: @mailonline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 1, 2015 11:16:18 GMT -5
not sure if I blame him after the other ref incident where the referee was beheaded.... But after watching that video, that's some scary stuff. Probably a unique situation given he is a policeman, but something needs to be changed in brazil! I can't help but wonder if something needs to be changed worldwide for Soccer Refs. Calls seem to be pretty subjective and refs allowed to call things based on their subjective thoughts about a play. It would be good to see GA soccer take ownership of refs rather than having clubs provide refs. Then you eliminate some of the 'club' ref mentality and possibly increase the skill of the refs and reduce player/spectator frustration due to a lack of true accountability for refs. And for the ref who was beheaded - wasn't he the one who was beheaded after he stabbed/killed a player or is that a different one? I think what needs to change more so than the quality of youth soccer refs is parent and coach mentality. Reffing is a very tough job. Look at all the bad calls in the Women's World Cup and the Gold Cup this summer. But yet we expect the guy who refs our club game who gets paid maybe 2% of what a professional ref makes to be perfect. Not to say that we shouldn't work to help improve referees and referee programs, but I think the easiest way to do so is to hold parents and coaches more accountable for their sideline behavior - to make and enforce rules that prohibit fans and coaches from saying anything to referees in youth games except maybe thanks and good game ref. This would not only set better examples for our youth players, but it would also improve referee retention considerably (refs wouldn't quit because they were tired of getting yelled at - which will result in having more experienced referees) and would help referees gain confidence instead of constantly worrying about making the wrong call.
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Post by stevieg on Oct 1, 2015 11:22:42 GMT -5
I think the refs need to take a harder line with parents and the way to do that is through the coaches. Refs should never communicate directly with parents. If a parent comment crosses the line or a parent repeatedly and loudly berates the ref, the ref should stop the game, explain the situation to the coach and ask the coach to control their parents. When this is done and the coach has to yell over at the parents, they almost always shut up for the rest of the game.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 1, 2015 11:41:22 GMT -5
Interesting conversation about Ref/parent/coach - I have watched sports my whole life. I have yet to attend any sporting event where parents/spectators did not yell at a ref. Yes, good character should be the case with all involved - I do find it interesting that it appears to me - that soccer is the one sport where it isn't acceptable for anyone to yell. Perhaps it should be like tennis where no one speaks - players, spectators or ref (except for a call)
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Post by hotspur1 on Oct 1, 2015 12:01:57 GMT -5
Interesting conversation about Ref/parent/coach - I have watched sports my whole life. I have yet to attend any sporting event where parents/spectators did not yell at a ref. Yes, good character should be the case with all involved - I do find it interesting that it appears to me - that soccer is the one sport where it isn't acceptable for anyone to yell. Perhaps it should be like tennis where no one speaks - players, spectators or ref (except for a call) Youth soccer is hard to lump in with other sports, in my opinion, for several reasons. First you have the close proximity of spectators to refs makes youth soccer a lot different from other popular sports - no barriers between parents and the refs can be very intimidating. Last year I actually saw an older person (probably a grandparent) actually grab a linesman to tell them they made a bad call. Football and baseball typically have a fence that a parent must navigate to get to the refs - soccer they can reach out and touch an AR. Second, and probably most important in my opinion, is that most of these refs are CHILDREN. We've all probably questioned calls before, but there's a right way to do it. You certainly don't berate a 15 year old AR if you are a 45 year old man, three times her size. And finally, I honestly think most parents do not have a good enough grasp of the game (rules, tactics, etc) to be jumping all over refs constantly. Just my two cents.
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Post by stevieg on Oct 1, 2015 12:06:09 GMT -5
Interesting conversation about Ref/parent/coach - I have watched sports my whole life. I have yet to attend any sporting event where parents/spectators did not yell at a ref. Yes, good character should be the case with all involved - I do find it interesting that it appears to me - that soccer is the one sport where it isn't acceptable for anyone to yell. Perhaps it should be like tennis where no one speaks - players, spectators or ref (except for a call) I don't find it to be the case that this only applies to soccer. My older daughter plays lacrosse. We had several parents from an opposing team yell at the ref ("you suck!") during a HS playoff game last spring. The principal of our school (who attends most home sporting events at the school) came over and told them to stop immediately or he would throw them out. I've also seen refs speak to coaches about parent behavior and seen coaches turn to the bleachers and tell the parents to be quiet. In fact, at lacrosse tournaments, I have seen field marshals ask parents to leave and ban them from returning when they have become too abusive to the refs. It does no good to yell at the ref or ARs. The decision has been made already. All you are doing is looking immature in front of your kid. I have no problem in yelling "handball" or "offside" as the play progresses (although it's also probably a waste of time). It's the abuse and name-calling that has no place in youth soccer.
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Post by rifle on Oct 1, 2015 12:20:02 GMT -5
Coaches don't hear much of the parent banter though.. so quite hard to hold one accountable for the other.
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 1, 2015 12:45:04 GMT -5
Coaches don't hear much of the parent banter though.. so quite hard to hold one accountable for the other. I think it would be great GA Soccer or even USSF would mandate some specific rules for parent/fan behavior - preferably that parents/fans at youth and amateur games are not allowed to even address referees (even saying things like "great call ref" are likely to be sarcastic, so just making a blanket rule that they can't talk to refs would be best). Then they should mandate that all soccer club be required to provide field marshals to monitor parent behavior - the field marshal would have the authority to remove fans from the premises if necessary.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 1, 2015 12:58:57 GMT -5
My sample size is small, but we had game last fall for u9s boys, where the ref didn't show up because of a miscommunication. The opposing team's coach volunteered to man the center and nobody really cared.
best half of soccer at 6v6, u9 I've watched. Kids called the out of bounds themselves and were forced to be honest. the game had a natural calmness about it and parents were relaxed.
it all changed when the ref showed up at half time.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 1, 2015 14:40:09 GMT -5
Soccerhouse: The thing with society as a whole, people usually fall to the lowest common denominator. However, when given the chance to rise above, they will Congrats to those U9 players, coaches and parents!
I like the ideas of Field Marshals. Not only for fans, but also for refs. It appears, there are no real checks/balances to ensure refs are calling fair games. Without anyone watching, it's a one-sided situation with frustrations for parents, players and coaches.
In regards to fans being closer - that is a good point. Perhaps soccer should consider implementing better side line accommodations for spectators.
Rules for soccer should be more precise and less subjective. imo
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 1, 2015 15:26:29 GMT -5
Soccerhouse: The thing with society as a whole, people usually fall to the lowest common denominator. However, when given the chance to rise above, they will Congrats to those U9 players, coaches and parents! I like the ideas of Field Marshals. Not only for fans, but also for refs. It appears, there are no real checks/balances to ensure refs are calling fair games. Without anyone watching, it's a one-sided situation with frustrations for parents, players and coaches. In regards to fans being closer - that is a good point. Perhaps soccer should consider implementing better side line accommodations for spectators. Rules for soccer should be more precise and less subjective. imo There is not a regular, formal checks and balances for all refs, but at most clubs assessors from the state come and evaluate and provide feedback to the referees at least once a season. Some clubs also have ref mentor programs where experienced higher level refs help mentor younger refs. Higher level refs also have to get maintenance assessments to keep their certification level (they also had to be assessed to earn the higher level certification). Sometimes coaches, if they feel a referee was really bad, essentially in terms of his ability to manage the game, will provide the home club with some feedback. Sometimes parents send clubs feedback too, but I'd say overall this is bad practice. Too many parents don't know the game well enough to provide objective feedback on the referees. I completely disagree with your statement that the rules of the game should be more precise. Soccer are probably much more in depth than say basketball rules. There are also lots of guidelines and resources that provide advice to referees in terms of interpreting the laws of the game. But the best overall teacher for referees is experience (if you know the game and are around it enough, you know how to recognize fouls). Which is what too many don't get because of all the criticism they have to deal with. I don't think the field marshal should be someone who evaluates and gives feedback to the ref (unless that person is a senior referee, ref instructor, or ref assessor). We are in a pretty big crisis right now in Georgia in terms of number of officials. There aren't enough available (and definitely not qualified) refs to work all of the games. It would be hard to implement a comprehensive checks and balances program as there just aren't enough bodies to ref all the games let alone evaluate the referees (most of the ones qualified to do so end up having to ref games themselves).
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Post by rifle on Oct 1, 2015 17:37:24 GMT -5
Field marshals handing out suckers as step 1, then asking loudmouth knuckleheads to go watch from the parking lot, would be a good thing, IMO.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 2, 2015 5:57:41 GMT -5
Soccerhouse: The thing with society as a whole, people usually fall to the lowest common denominator. However, when given the chance to rise above, they will Congrats to those U9 players, coaches and parents! I like the ideas of Field Marshals. Not only for fans, but also for refs. It appears, there are no real checks/balances to ensure refs are calling fair games. Without anyone watching, it's a one-sided situation with frustrations for parents, players and coaches. In regards to fans being closer - that is a good point. Perhaps soccer should consider implementing better side line accommodations for spectators. Rules for soccer should be more precise and less subjective. imo There is not a regular, formal checks and balances for all refs, but at most clubs assessors from the state come and evaluate and provide feedback to the referees at least once a season. Some clubs also have ref mentor programs where experienced higher level refs help mentor younger refs. Higher level refs also have to get maintenance assessments to keep their certification level (they also had to be assessed to earn the higher level certification). Sometimes coaches, if they feel a referee was really bad, essentially in terms of his ability to manage the game, will provide the home club with some feedback. Sometimes parents send clubs feedback too, but I'd say overall this is bad practice. Too many parents don't know the game well enough to provide objective feedback on the referees. I completely disagree with your statement that the rules of the game should be more precise. Soccer are probably much more in depth than say basketball rules. There are also lots of guidelines and resources that provide advice to referees in terms of interpreting the laws of the game. But the best overall teacher for referees is experience (if you know the game and are around it enough, you know how to recognize fouls). Which is what too many don't get because of all the criticism they have to deal with. I don't think the field marshal should be someone who evaluates and gives feedback to the ref (unless that person is a senior referee, ref instructor, or ref assessor). We are in a pretty big crisis right now in Georgia in terms of number of officials. There aren't enough available (and definitely not qualified) refs to work all of the games. It would be hard to implement a comprehensive checks and balances program as there just aren't enough bodies to ref all the games let alone evaluate the referees (most of the ones qualified to do so end up having to ref games themselves). Thank you for openly stating that there is not a Formal check/balance for refs and feedback comes from their club. That - in and of it's self- will only work at a club that has proper character and integrity - a love for the game of soccer and teaching kids to play it - rather than just winning. The crisis in GA will continue until refs, parents, players and coaches are satisfied with the refs at games. It's time to stop being concerned with what is hard to implement - take a step back - look at the facts and make a command decision that is BEST for players - which is a good, fair game that allows them to play soccer and either win/lose (based on the team's skill and ability) without the help or hindrance of a ref.
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 2, 2015 7:51:35 GMT -5
There is not a regular, formal checks and balances for all refs, but at most clubs assessors from the state come and evaluate and provide feedback to the referees at least once a season. Some clubs also have ref mentor programs where experienced higher level refs help mentor younger refs. Higher level refs also have to get maintenance assessments to keep their certification level (they also had to be assessed to earn the higher level certification). Sometimes coaches, if they feel a referee was really bad, essentially in terms of his ability to manage the game, will provide the home club with some feedback. Sometimes parents send clubs feedback too, but I'd say overall this is bad practice. Too many parents don't know the game well enough to provide objective feedback on the referees. I completely disagree with your statement that the rules of the game should be more precise. Soccer are probably much more in depth than say basketball rules. There are also lots of guidelines and resources that provide advice to referees in terms of interpreting the laws of the game. But the best overall teacher for referees is experience (if you know the game and are around it enough, you know how to recognize fouls). Which is what too many don't get because of all the criticism they have to deal with. I don't think the field marshal should be someone who evaluates and gives feedback to the ref (unless that person is a senior referee, ref instructor, or ref assessor). We are in a pretty big crisis right now in Georgia in terms of number of officials. There aren't enough available (and definitely not qualified) refs to work all of the games. It would be hard to implement a comprehensive checks and balances program as there just aren't enough bodies to ref all the games let alone evaluate the referees (most of the ones qualified to do so end up having to ref games themselves). Thank you for openly stating that there is not a Formal check/balance for refs and feedback comes from their club. That - in and of it's self- will only work at a club that has proper character and integrity - a love for the game of soccer and teaching kids to play it - rather than just winning. The crisis in GA will continue until refs, parents, players and coaches are satisfied with the refs at games. It's time to stop being concerned with what is hard to implement - take a step back - look at the facts and make a command decision that is BEST for players - which is a good, fair game that allows them to play soccer and either win/lose (based on the team's skill and ability) without the help or hindrance of a ref. The easiest way to solve the problem would be to set up a checks and balances system for fans (parents), so that working and continuing to work as a referee becomes more desirable. Implement policies that punish inappropriate fan behavior at youth events. As I mentioned before, I think most parents are pretty clueless when it comes to the laws of the game, yet they yell at refs anyway - and even the ones that know something about the game often lack perspective in terms of what is an acceptable level of competence for youth referees. Professional refs miss calls and they are supposedly the best refs in the world. College refs miss calls. Adult Amateur ,DA, ECNL, and RPL refs miss calls. Yet parents at Classic 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and even at rec games expect the refs they are assigned to be perfect. Youth refs (whether they are adults or kids), like youth players, aren't going to be perfect. They are going to make mistakes, but they are going to get better with experience, especially if they are allowed to make a few mistakes without obnoxious fans and coaches screaming at them. I'm pretty sure most parents would be upset if their kid's coach yelled at him every time he did any little thing wrong (he'd probably end up quitting soccer if that's the kind of coach he had). That's what refs have to deal with on a regular basis, and it's not fair. Until parents (and coaches) realize this, the referee situation is not going to get better. I've played soccer for 30+ years (still play at an amateur level) and coaching for 15+. It took me quite a while to develop this perspective, so I understand if you disagree - I've been there. I'm not saying we should settle for mediocrity when it comes to youth referees. I just believe that you can't effectively train and develop enough good referees to cover all the youth games in Georgia in the kind of hostile environments we consistently see. Fix the parent problem and you will fix the referee problem.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 2, 2015 8:24:04 GMT -5
Thank you for openly stating that there is not a Formal check/balance for refs and feedback comes from their club. That - in and of it's self- will only work at a club that has proper character and integrity - a love for the game of soccer and teaching kids to play it - rather than just winning. The crisis in GA will continue until refs, parents, players and coaches are satisfied with the refs at games. It's time to stop being concerned with what is hard to implement - take a step back - look at the facts and make a command decision that is BEST for players - which is a good, fair game that allows them to play soccer and either win/lose (based on the team's skill and ability) without the help or hindrance of a ref. The easiest way to solve the problem would be to set up a checks and balances system for fans (parents), so that working and continuing to work as a referee becomes more desirable. Implement policies that punish inappropriate fan behavior at youth events. As I mentioned before, I think most parents are pretty clueless when it comes to the laws of the game, yet they yell at refs anyway - and even the ones that know something about the game often lack perspective in terms of what is an acceptable level of competence for youth referees. Professional refs miss calls and they are supposedly the best refs in the world. College refs miss calls. Adult Amateur ,DA, ECNL, and RPL refs miss calls. Yet parents at Classic 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and even at rec games expect the refs they are assigned to be perfect. Youth refs (whether they are adults or kids), like youth players, aren't going to be perfect. They are going to make mistakes, but they are going to get better with experience, especially if they are allowed to make a few mistakes without obnoxious fans and coaches screaming at them. I'm pretty sure most parents would be upset if their kid's coach yelled at him every time he did any little thing wrong (he'd probably end up quitting soccer if that's the kind of coach he had). That's what refs have to deal with on a regular basis, and it's not fair. Until parents (and coaches) realize this, the referee situation is not going to get better. I've played soccer for 30+ years (still play at an amateur level) and coaching for 15+. It took me quite a while to develop this perspective, so I understand if you disagree - I've been there. I'm not saying we should settle for mediocrity when it comes to youth referees. I just believe that you can't effectively train and develop enough good referees to cover all the youth games in Georgia in the kind of hostile environments we consistently see. Fix the parent problem and you will fix the referee problem. It seems to be a two-way street: -Educate Parents and Refs on the rules of the games -Have the Refs implement the rules of the games (effectively and with integrity - and perhaps even place them under an outside entity not associated with a club) -Hold parents accountable for their conduct. (no recommendation for doing that - unless you start kicking their children out of playing soccer....but that seems extreme)
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 2, 2015 9:02:39 GMT -5
I can agree with that - 2 way street. Just don't think you can effectively develop and train referees without fixing the parent (and coach) conduct problem too because we will never have enough refs, let alone competent refs to cover games if we don't make reffing more appealing - don't create a better environment for refs to work in. Forgot to mention that aside from playing and coaching, I'm also a parent of an academy age player - fortunately the parents in my daughter's age group, at least so far, have been really great in terms of treatment of referees - so it's not all parents I'm critiquing. But there are definitely far too many crazies out there. I think that holding parents accountable for their behavior would be relatively easy. Simply mandate that clubs assign field marshals who have the authority to kick parents out of games - just like referees have the authority to remove coaches and players - parents who are kicked out for inappropriate conduct would have to leave sight and sound of the field (maybe we could let them sit in their car so they could still watch) - field marshals would just need a little bit of training as to what to look for and some advice as to the most effective way to calmly dismiss unruly parents.
I mentioned previously that many clubs have assessors from the state who come and evaluate their referees and their referee program at least once a season. I think the state does try to initiate this for clubs who don't take the initiative themselves - so I think something is being done at the state level. You are right though - it would be great though if the state could devote more resources - people and time - to doing this sort of thing.
Paying refs more might help too. While for a teenager the pay is pretty good, not a lot of adults want to work their regular job all week and then all weekend too for a fraction of their regular hourly rate. Fortunately there are some adults who simply love the game and want to get out there and ref regardless of the pay and the hostility they receive.
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Post by SoccerMom on Oct 2, 2015 9:19:15 GMT -5
I think the refs get paid pretty decent for an hours work, and get even more for tournaments. I agree that parents need to shut their mouths but also think that refs needs to be trained better. A couple of hours course 1 Saturday is not enough, they should have to go get re-certified every year, its easy to say that some parents don't understand soccer rules but some refs don't either -- starting with the offside.
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 2, 2015 11:39:54 GMT -5
I think the refs get paid pretty decent for an hours work, and get even more for tournaments. I agree that parents need to shut their mouths but also think that refs needs to be trained better. A couple of hours course 1 Saturday is not enough, they should have to go get re-certified every year, its easy to say that some parents don't understand soccer rules but some refs don't either -- starting with the offside. Refs do have to get recertified every year - 4 or 5 hour recert class and some online stuff - some clubs also offer regular training or in-service classes, but again, this is usually a club thing (in services are provided by the state if requested and will be well attended, but a club has to ask) - yes pay is pretty decent for teenagers working part time, and pretty decent for adult refs who work college and even adult amateur games, but most adult refs who work youth games are usually not doing it primarily for the money - the money might be a little bit of an incentive, but it's not worth their time - most of them ref as a hobby because they love the game- making reffing youth games more appealing by both improving parent sideline behavior and paying a little more would certainly increase the referee pool and allow assignors to be more selective about who they assign - too often assignors have to assign a ref to a game because he's the only one certified who is available - that's why so many of the refs seem to be in over their head in terms of game management and then get yelled at. It's a vicious cycle. Asking refs do volunteer their time to do additional unpaid training is probably not going to work for the majority of them either. They already don't get paid enough - why would we expect them invest more of their time without any compensation at all. Even if we were able to implement additional required referee training, the best referee training is game experience (and not to mention, if refs were required to spend a more significant amount of time training and didn't get paid for it, that may also discourage some from becoming refs altogether and/or continuing to ref). It's a tough situation. Parents expect/demand more from referees and referee programs but don't really have the understanding of what it would take to make things better - better work environment and better pay is probably the easiest solution - kind of like teachers.
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Post by SoccerMom on Oct 2, 2015 11:44:31 GMT -5
Please don't compare teachers with refs, not even close to a good analogy
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 2, 2015 12:01:56 GMT -5
Please don't compare teachers with refs, not even close to a good analogy Only comparing the two in terms of compensation for time and expectations of parents, but our supposed best US Ref Matt Geiger was a former teacher, and I think there are a lot more similarities aside from compensation if you really think about it - classroom management vs. game management - - enforcement of rules and procedures, knowledge of a subject vs knowledge of a game - of course coach/teacher is a much better analogy, but ref/teacher works as well to some extent
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Post by SoccerMom on Oct 2, 2015 12:15:22 GMT -5
Please don't compare teachers with refs, not even close to a good analogy Only comparing the two in terms of compensation for time and expectations of parents, but our supposed best US Ref Matt Geiger was a former teacher, and I think there are a lot more similarities aside from compensation if you really think about it - classroom management vs. game management - - enforcement of rules and procedures, knowledge of a subject vs knowledge of a game - of course coach/teacher is a much better analogy, but ref/teacher works as well to some extent if a ref had near the same education as a teacher did, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Also teachers are more open minded --- where refs are their way or the hwy, even when they're wrong. I have seen ADULT refs be disrespectful to girl players on the field and call them a name, and if the player complains ---boom you're out I guess we will have to agree to disagree
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 2, 2015 12:47:29 GMT -5
Only comparing the two in terms of compensation for time and expectations of parents, but our supposed best US Ref Matt Geiger was a former teacher, and I think there are a lot more similarities aside from compensation if you really think about it - classroom management vs. game management - - enforcement of rules and procedures, knowledge of a subject vs knowledge of a game - of course coach/teacher is a much better analogy, but ref/teacher works as well to some extent if a ref had near the same education as a teacher did, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Also teachers are more open minded --- where refs are their way or the hwy, even when they're wrong. I have seen ADULT refs be disrespectful to girl players on the field and call them a name, and if the player complains ---boom you're out I guess we will have to agree to disagree My main point was to say that teachers put a lot of time and effort into their job and don't get the compensation they deserve. By saying that refs should do a significant amount of unpaid training (unpaid work) in order to be more proficient at their job (as some of the previous posts alluded to) is doing the same thing to them that we do to teachers - not paying them enough for their time and effort - unless we pay them more. Sorry that your experience with refs has been so negative - Like I said, I think the analogy works in theory and sometimes in practice (there are great refs, great teachers, bad refs, and bad teachers), but I agree with you (at least for the most part) that teachers are usually better and more prepared to manage and teach their students (more great teachers) than referees are to manage soccer games (more bad refs) - for teachers it's a full time gig, but for 99% of refs just part time, so that probably explains and to a degree excuses the difference in training. Teachers also don't usually have to deal with the constant criticism from the sideline (sure they may get some, but probably a lot less than refs). Probably what makes refs a little too sensitive sometimes.
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Post by jash on Oct 2, 2015 14:30:21 GMT -5
I think the refs get paid pretty decent for an hours work, and get even more for tournaments. I agree that parents need to shut their mouths but also think that refs needs to be trained better. A couple of hours course 1 Saturday is not enough, they should have to go get re-certified every year, its easy to say that some parents don't understand soccer rules but some refs don't either -- starting with the offside. While I think everyone can agree referees could use improvement, it's unfortunate how much misinformation there is about referees, their certification procedures, and their dedication. My son is a new ref this year and has done a few tournaments and regular games. He did far more training and preparation than a couple of hours course 1 Saturday. He studied and learned and passed the exam, and did the practical class for basically an entire Saturday. He, and all the other refs I personally know, take it pretty seriously. But he makes less at tournaments than at regular games, was there all day without being offered a meal. He still has to get transportation all over, which isn't free. He has to buy his own equipment. He has to get recertified every year, and that just to maintain his current level. If he wants to advance, he has to take even more training. But of course, as with many things, the game is the best teacher. He learns a lot working with other experienced refs and talking about things that happen during halftime and after the game. Yes, that's what they talk about. They take it pretty seriously. And after all that, he's probably going to hang it up after this year and not recertify, because the money isn't worth it after the travel costs, and it isn't even a little bit fun, because people assume that because he isn't perfect that he must be biased against their team. That's parents from both teams, of course. Yeah, our problem isn't the refs. It's the parents. And the coaches, by the way. Youth soccer is out of control. Let's not make it worse.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 2, 2015 15:46:08 GMT -5
There are refs who follow their training and others who do not There are parents who teach good character, even through a competitive spirit and those who do not. There are players who will play no matter what's called and almost any team - when losing will become utterly frustrated when a ref does not make calls. There are coaches who will handle situations well and those who will not. There are clubs with 'club ref' mentality - and that frustrates everyone except the people who are playing at their club with their refs and know the 'club ref' mentality will always help them...
I do agree - youth soccer is out of control. All parties are responsible and until Refs, Parents and Players say enough is enough...nothing will change until someone is hurt - sounds like that may have happened to a KSA player this weekend (other thread)
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Post by rifle on Oct 2, 2015 20:50:33 GMT -5
The thread on this site that calls out bad sideline behavior needs to be more active. Maybe record audio and share it online. I guarantee it'll be painful to listen to.
Remember this: If you have parents on your kid's team who are an embarrassment, and you say nothing to them.. you are part of the problem.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 3, 2015 11:17:22 GMT -5
The thread on this site that calls out bad sideline behavior needs to be more active. Maybe record audio and share it online. I guarantee it'll be painful to listen to. Remember this: If you have parents on your kid's team who are an embarrassment, and you say nothing to them.. you are part of the problem. Rifle, do you have a link to that?
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Post by rifle on Oct 3, 2015 18:09:58 GMT -5
The thread on this site that calls out bad sideline behavior needs to be more active. Maybe record audio and share it online. I guarantee it'll be painful to listen to. Remember this: If you have parents on your kid's team who are an embarrassment, and you say nothing to them.. you are part of the problem. Rifle, do you have a link to that? search the site for "psycho parent", there were a few threads.
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