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Post by newposter on Oct 4, 2015 16:10:41 GMT -5
I don't condone continual abuse of referees. However everyone who posts forgets refs and umpires in every sport get heckled. They can choose to ignore it or respond. If they engage in the argument be prepared to handle the situation. That's the main issue with soccer. The young Centers and ARs aren't mature enough to handle that part of the game. I umpired for over 20 years and I was in charge of every game. Pay more get better and more experienced CRs and ARs. It's a matter of economics.
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Post by jash on Oct 4, 2015 16:40:25 GMT -5
I don't condone continual abuse of referees. However everyone who posts forgets refs and umpires in every sport get heckled. They can choose to ignore it or respond. If they engage in the argument be prepared to handle the situation. That's the main issue with soccer. The young Centers and ARs aren't mature enough to handle that part of the game. I umpired for over 20 years and I was in charge of every game. Pay more get better and more experienced CRs and ARs. It's a matter of economics. True enough. But one big difference other than the age and maturity is that the parents (and coaches) are literally inches from the officials. They are close enough to be physically intimidating. That's an issue.
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Post by newposter on Oct 4, 2015 16:53:10 GMT -5
That could easily be fixed by the clubs. Ive umpired and literally I've been close enough to parents to hear a guy pass gas.
Refs should be 3-5 years older than players they ref minimum. Assigners can help with this.
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Post by jack4343 on Oct 4, 2015 19:30:07 GMT -5
That could easily be fixed by the clubs. Ive umpired and literally I've been close enough to parents to hear a guy pass gas. Refs should be 3-5 years older than players they ref minimum. Assigners can help with this. Big problem with that...so few refs that Ga Soccer had to relax the age requirements just to ensure there are refs available for games. Paying more won't make a difference. That's not the reason there aren't enough refs...it's the abuse. The parents are the responsible adults here...they need to start acting like it.
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Post by newposter on Oct 4, 2015 21:30:08 GMT -5
I've been going to games for 8 years at the highest levels. I've never seen anything that was more than comments by parents stating their displeasure in a call. If a ref can't handle that then they aren't ready to ref that age. It's simple to stop go to their coach. Comments will stop. By the way comments likr that happen in every sport. This is not unique to soccer.
I've seen referees be completely inappropriate with parents challenging them. To me when that happens, the refs deserve what they get. That instance was reported and the ref still refs. Ive told our coach if he shows up as a ref in one of our games, our child won't play that game.
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Post by jash on Oct 4, 2015 23:52:24 GMT -5
I've been going to games for 8 years at the highest levels. I've never seen anything that was more than comments by parents stating their displeasure in a call. If a ref can't handle that then they aren't ready to ref that age. It's simple to stop go to their coach. Comments will stop. By the way comments likr that happen in every sport. This is not unique to soccer. I've seen referees be completely inappropriate with parents challenging them. To me when that happens, the refs deserve what they get. That instance was reported and the ref still refs. Ive told our coach if he shows up as a ref in one of our games, our child won't play that game. Well, I've been going to games for just as long and I've heard things that have sickened me. I've heard kids called idiots and biased, and other insults that involved cursing. That is inappropriate for any ref. It's clear you think it's part of the sport, but we'll have to agree to disagree, because I think it's horrible. And asking/demanding children to be more mature than the adults around them is, quite honestly, one of the more ridiculous things I've heard in a long time. Referees should definitely not react, but to say they "deserve what they get" is also ridiculous. Two wrongs don't make a right, and adding a third wrong after that from the adults is ludicrous. If you don't like the fact that children ref the games, well, I guess that is actually just unfortunate, because that's what we have left as options. Additional pay might make a very small difference, but not enough to eliminate the kids from the reffing pool. Until then it is incumbent on us, the adults, to behave.
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Post by newposter on Oct 5, 2015 6:14:19 GMT -5
Unfortunately there will never be agreement on this. I however am concerned when the safety of the players is jeopardized because of the maturity of the refs. I've personally seen on multiple occasions where one player has punched another. The ref acknowed it verbally in each situation. One issued a yellow and another said we aren't throwing punches in this game with no card. In each instance the player who punched should have been ejected. Parents of the players punched were visibly upset and rightly so. I for one can't blame them. They did not bring their child to get punched. I've seen these refs over and over. There's no defending that.
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Post by jack4343 on Oct 5, 2015 6:53:08 GMT -5
Unfortunately there will never be agreement on this. I however am concerned when the safety of the players is jeopardized because of the maturity of the refs. I've personally seen on multiple occasions where one player has punched another. The ref acknowed it verbally in each situation. One issued a yellow and another said we aren't throwing punches in this game with no card. In each instance the player who punched should have been ejected. Parents of the players punched were visibly upset and rightly so. I for one can't blame them. They did not bring their child to get punched. I've seen these refs over and over. There's no defending that. Funny...I guess you and I see things differently. You see the ref as being at fault. I see the parents of the kids that threw the punch as the ones that are at fault. That kind of reaction from any of my kids will not be tolerated. I don't need (or want) a ref to ever have to handle that. That is my job.
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Post by jack4343 on Oct 5, 2015 6:55:46 GMT -5
I just remembered the episode of the Brady Bunch where a kid punched Peter and Mike went to talk to the Dad and the kid's Dad punched Mike. See where I'm going with this....
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Post by newposter on Oct 5, 2015 6:56:54 GMT -5
Parents of kids who through punch should handle it. Ref of the game should give them a chance immediately by issuing a red card. Quit defending the indefensible. Refs were WRONG in those games and can't be defended.
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Post by jash on Oct 5, 2015 8:04:52 GMT -5
Unfortunately there will never be agreement on this. I however am concerned when the safety of the players is jeopardized because of the maturity of the refs. I've personally seen on multiple occasions where one player has punched another. The ref acknowed it verbally in each situation. One issued a yellow and another said we aren't throwing punches in this game with no card. In each instance the player who punched should have been ejected. Parents of the players punched were visibly upset and rightly so. I for one can't blame them. They did not bring their child to get punched. I've seen these refs over and over. There's no defending that. Here's where our arguments differ. You're talking about anecdotal issues of incompetent referees, which can happen regardless of the age of the referee. I'm talking about consistent and systematic referee abuse by coaches and parents, which happens in the majority of games. Ask the refs. They are the ones out there taking it. However, having said all of that, even in cases where referees make mistakes, and even in cases of egregious mistakes, ADULTS cursing at CHILDREN is wrong. Can you agree on that, or is that justified by the mistakes?
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Post by newposter on Oct 5, 2015 8:29:45 GMT -5
I've already have said I don't condone abusing refs. I will say if a ref comes over and challenges parents that's on the ref. I'm not talking about offside or a ball given to the wrong team. However when the safety of the players at stake, they may hear some complaining. I also am concerned these refs continue to ref. At least you should be able to agree some refs arent capable of refereeing.
I will note that in 8 years of being on the sideline I have never heard to any extent what you describe. I guess you play at a club I've never been at.
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Post by jash on Oct 5, 2015 9:38:03 GMT -5
I've already have said I don't condone abusing refs. I will say if a ref comes over and challenges parents that's on the ref. I'm not talking about offside or a ball given to the wrong team. However when the safety of the players at stake, they may hear some complaining. I also am concerned these refs continue to ref. At least you should be able to agree some refs arent capable of refereeing. I will note that in 8 years of being on the sideline I have never heard to any extent what you describe. I guess you play at a club I've never been at. Of course some refs are incompetent. The more common problem is parents who don't know the rules who think the refs are incompetent, but clearly some are bad. Most are weeded out by assessment and by reports from more experienced refs who work with them. What's wrong with a ref silencing parents who have abused them? I have no problem with a referee asking (politely) for parents to knock off the rude chatter. Sure they can go to the coach, but usually one warning to the parent sideline solves the problem more quickly and directly. But arguing back and forth with parents is wrong -- not because I think the refs are wrong or should not be allowed to defend their decisions, but because nothing good comes from it, so it's pointless. If you have been at select soccer games and never heard real referee abuse then you are either not listening or are amazingly lucky. I've heard it from just about every team/club we have ever played, home and away. So it's not a problem with our club, as you imply. The best time to really hear stuff is at a tournament watching games that you have absolutely no stake in. Stand behind the parents and really listen. You will hear foul talk and ignorance the likes of which will shock you. And I'm talking about parents of kids as young as U10.
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Post by jack4343 on Oct 5, 2015 9:50:19 GMT -5
I can clearly tell that we are on the opposite ends of the spectrum on this argument and neither of us will be swayed so I will conclude my comments on the matter. The abuse of refs does exist. I've witnessed it first hand. It creates the never ending cycle of new inexperienced refs coming on and the old ones falling away. Want better refs...fix the problem. It starts with the parents...not the refs. Leave them alone and they will grow in authority and confidence as well as knowledge of the game. If not, enjoy what you have because it will not change. Why do you think that there are so many topics on this small portion of our youth soccer world?
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Post by hotspur1 on Oct 5, 2015 9:50:41 GMT -5
I will note that in 8 years of being on the sideline I have never heard to any extent what you describe. I guess you play at a club I've never been at. New poster, I have to respectfully disagree a bit. Having been around darn near every major club in the Southeast for almost 15 years (my daughter and niece who both have played at the highest levels) I have seen FAR more abusive behavior towards refs by parents than I have refs consistently allowing dangerous play to happen. And honestly, it's not even close. My daughter has played 9 years now, for two different clubs and as a guest player for a third in quite a few games. Easily several hundred games and I'm probably short changing it. I recall only two instances where there was a similar type of incident - both cases were prior to select and the coaches handled them both by quickly jerking the girls off of the field and not allowing them to return. On the other hand I've seen sideline fights between parents (if you didn't go to the Atlanta Cup last year, you missed some ridiculous behavior!), I've seen parents go onto the pitch to confront a ref, I've seen linesmen constantly bombarded with some of the most asinine crap ever. Like I said, I can pick any weekend and go hear refs get crap from adults...I'm not so sure I can do the same thing for the level of physicality that you have seen. Now for some of the other remarks about biased calls (I've also seen a little of this), refs that are struggling in games (again, seen it) and the need for better oversight from Georgia Soccer, I would probably agree. But until we as parents also help to fix the problem, we are part of the problem. I plan to take the referee certification course with my daughter next year - she has wanted to do it for two years now but because of the stuff she's heard over the years coming from adults, she wanted to wait until she was a bit older and knew she could handle it. I promised her that I'd at least take the course with her and would try to do some games myself schedule permitting. I challenge anyone on this board that is complaining about the refs to do the same.
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Post by newposter on Oct 5, 2015 9:58:13 GMT -5
I've never heard them direct any language towards refs directly. I've heard them say comments like that's awful your terrible you must be watching another game how could you call that etc. I'm sure there may have been an expletive in there also. You say yourself that a sideline warning a yellow card to the parents so to speak handles it. I agree it should be given. If they continue to overtly disrupt the game they should be removed. All a ref has to do is stop the game. It's very simple. As far as your point they get weeded out, that doesn't happen enough. The ref who challenged the sideline still refs and that behavior has been exhibited more than once. Once at a game I spectated. No one will do anything about it. It was reported both times. The refs who made comments about punching still refs. I could go on. The refs have a remedy. Kick the parents out. Report to their club. Parents and more importantly players have no such optio.
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 5, 2015 11:08:51 GMT -5
Here-in lies part of the problem: Refs are NOT supposed to speak to or with any spectators. The Coach is responsible for players and parents. The Ref should adddress the coach with the issue and ask the coach to speak with their spectator. Then, if the spectator continues, the Ref should tell the coach to go TELL the Spectator to stop. Then, it should be addressed by the Coach having the spectator to leave - but Refs are not supposed to do that. They can control the game by stopping the game until the spectator stops or leaves if the asking and telling have not worked. If you stop a child's game and the team ends up having to forfeit, then you'll be able to stop the 'abuse' of refs. If you teach refs the rules and have them implement them and help educate parents, you'll alleviate the rest. You can find the rules and regs here to share with your parents... www.georgiasoccer.org/about/bylaws__rules/
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Post by soccerfutbolfam on Oct 5, 2015 11:12:09 GMT -5
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Post by newposter on Oct 5, 2015 12:08:04 GMT -5
Thank you! Educate the referees. If they can't implement the rules, they should not be refereeing. I have never been at a game where the sideline got out of hand except for when the referee confronted the parents. There was no need. Stop the game. Go tell the coach. If it continues have parent removed. Simple!
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Post by jash on Oct 5, 2015 12:53:27 GMT -5
I've never heard them direct any language towards refs directly. I've heard them say comments like that's awful your terrible you must be watching another game how could you call that etc. I'm sure there may have been an expletive in there also. What part of " you are terrible" " you must be watching another game" "how could you call that" is not directed at the ref directly? What part of including expletives towards young referees is acceptable in your eyes? I'm starting to think I'm just being trolled.
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Post by fanatic21 on Oct 5, 2015 15:46:54 GMT -5
Jash, totally agree with you. The referee crisis we are in now, a shortage of experienced refs, is caused by primarily by the parents (and coaches sometimes though I think coaches are actually getting better these days) and their treatment of the refs. Their behavior also sets a terrible example and infects the kids'/players' attitude toward the refs as well. Not sure how some people don't see it. Probably blinded by their own biases toward their kids' teams I guess and an unwillingness to look in the mirror and admit that they are the problem not the refs.
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Post by newposter on Oct 5, 2015 15:47:06 GMT -5
I am not a troll. I don't see an occasional comment as something so egregious. I've umpired and have heard them on occasion. I was mature enough to handle it. Watch other sports and you will see the same.
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