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Post by zizou on Oct 10, 2015 19:49:53 GMT -5
Not a good start to the day. US lost to Honduras in Semifinals of Olympic qualifying. Chances are low they will make Olympic field for second straight time. Was DA supposed to fix this? Isn't JK, as USSF Technical Director, responsible for this failure (and it is hard to conceptualize this in any other way)? US Loss to Honduras
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Post by soccerfan30 on Oct 10, 2015 20:09:25 GMT -5
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Post by touchlinedad on Oct 11, 2015 9:53:20 GMT -5
The U23's can still qualify for the Olympics. They just need two more wins instead of one now. They are playing well, just had an off day yesterday, I guess, as I didn't see the game as my oldest son finally got to play a game despite the rain.
But I do think the USMNT is at a tipping point. Some of the younger players are going to displace some veterans for 2018 World Cup and deservedly so. More of our players need to compete in the European leagues. If you listened to DeAndre Yedlin's recent interview on the Men in Blazers podcast, he said that while both MLS and the Premier League are very physical games, the difference is that "every player" in the Premier League is skilled technically. So Jurgen is right, we need players who are playing consistently in Europe until MLS catches up. The one positive I took away from last night is that we did fight back to equalize and that Jeff Cameron and Matt Besler played very well in the center back slots. But Mexico was just more skilled and were able to dominate possession and, in my mind, deserved to win, much as I didn't want that to happen.
As soccer parents, I think the best thing we can do is promote that soccer culture that Jurgen talks about in his Players Tribune article. We need to encourage our kids to play pickup soccer as much as possible and to develop those technical skills. And we, as paretns, need to worry less about winning and focus more on developing players and people. The vast majority of our kids are never going to play for the national team. However, they will grow up to be the next generation of USMNT fans and if we help them continue to grow that soccer culture, that will only help the sport in this country down the road.
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Post by zizou on Oct 12, 2015 8:51:27 GMT -5
The U23's can still qualify for the Olympics. They just need two more wins instead of one now. They are playing well, just had an off day yesterday, I guess, as I didn't see the game as my oldest son finally got to play a game despite the rain. The reason I sound pessimistic about eventual Olympics qualification now is the additional game they have to play is against Columbia in Rio if they beat Canada in the third place game. They should beat Canada, but they will be an underdog for sure in the Columbia game.
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Post by zizou on Oct 12, 2015 10:09:18 GMT -5
That was a nice fluffy piece (and that is all it is, fluff), but it does not move my sentiments about him one bit. It really says nothing that terribly useful about the challenges the USMNT faces internationally other than let's get soccer more ingrained in our culture. Really? That is what you have to offer, JK? Honestly, this is about what I would expect from him. It is about what I expect from coaches who want to shunt blame away from their inadequacies to something else. Actually, not just coaches. Players do this same sort of thing. Fans and other apologists for a stalled program do it also. In this case JK has the ultimate excuse. It is the "culture". The culture needs to be such that kids, who become the Players, grow up living, breathing, and bleeding soccer. Wow, what a stroke of genius. I must say I am in full agreement with Landon Donovan. The coach should be held to the same standard of excellence as the players. Has JK met that standard? Under JK, they have some impressive firsts: defeated Mexico in Azteca, defeated Holland in Amsterdam (let's be honest, not the Dutch first team, but still impressive), and defeated Germany in Germany (again, not with Germany's best side, but still the USMNT won on the road as Germany was preparing for important qualifying matches). They have also had some terrible performances. Looking like Greece in the World Cup (I don't care if they made it out of group play; the eye test said they were an unsophisticated, one might say naive, soccer team that succeeded at all by virtue of grit; as an American I am proud of that last part). Getting whacked by Ireland 2nd and 3rd teamers. The Gold Cup debacle. The Brasil friendly embarrassment when they were preparing for the CONCACAF Cup. Now the CONCACAF Cup. One might note that the number of recent unfortunate occurrences seems to be accumulating rapidly. Has JK met some reasonable standard of excellence? JK also is not getting the best out of his veterans. As has been mentioned multiple times, Dempsey and Altidore seem to have regressed. Bradley is not the same player in this team he was two years ago. Making Dempsey Captain was highly questionable. Is there any player on that team who looks and acts like less of a Captain than Dempsey? Of course, the USMNT coach typically has little contact with the players; nowhere near the level of contact of their club coaches. But when a team is in camp for at least a month, and then comes out of that camp and looks the way they did in the World Cup, one must wonder whether the coach is up to the task. But, once again, JK and his supporters trot out a convenient excuse: Atlidore got hurt in the first quarter of the first game. Sure, that was tough, but if JK was not prepared for that as a possible scenario, and all they were left with was what we saw, has JK met some standard of excellence? One must admit that JK has done a great job with Player recruitment. And in such an effort one is going to have some misses (the Julian Green experiment seems like an obvious case at present). But JK does have the gravitas to get dual citizenship players to pick the USMNT. Of course, one wonders how many of these players really had other legitimate options to appear for the National teams of their other countries of citizenship. I suppose we will see over the next few years. But if JK has been as wrong about these player recruitments as he has about some of his team selections, the USMNT is in deep trouble for some time to come. Again, has JK met some reasonable standard of excellence? Are we certain that the program is headed in the correct direction?
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Post by rifle on Oct 12, 2015 11:07:52 GMT -5
Zizou makes valid criticisms. Though I have defended him on the basis that the structure is the problem.. I totally agree that the MNT has not looked "better" in any way since he has been given the job.
JK seems, to me, to be a politician.
Still, I think JK has correctly identified real structural problems in US Soccer, but the structure of our Federation is not going to change without a major shift, and that's not likely because the youth game is rotten to the core. Due to $$$. Not unlike FIFA.
I see the following as priorities:
1- identification. Multiple dueling leagues, all claiming to be superior, only muddies the water. Need unification of competitive soccer structure from youth through MLS, with promotion and relegation for ALL levels
2- college soccer reform. Must not restrict this group to 3 or 4 month season
3- youth clubs should reap the benefit when a pro signs a contract, as required worldwide
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Post by totaalvoetbal on Oct 12, 2015 15:28:26 GMT -5
I agree with your points rifle except the promotion/relegation issue.
I also think that going to Europe is a good idea if it is the right situation. I don't want USMNT or USYNT players in England, you can't tell me that players like Lee Cattermole and Ryan Shawcross are more technical than players in the MLS. Players that want to go to Germany, Spain, and maybe even Italy would be good. But I don't think you can make a blanket statement and say more american players should play in Europe. The soccer education system is a developing beast and will take awhile to really build up, but we can't ignore it and tell players to leave it immediately either. There needs to be patience while changes are happening.
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Post by rifle on Oct 12, 2015 16:08:36 GMT -5
I agree with your points rifle except the promotion/relegation issue. I'm curious why you made the comment against pro/rel... To me, relegation is necessary to prevent teams from coasting in hopes of "draft picks". That's a concept that may work in a closed league such as pointyball, but it's NG for the world game, where players want to move on to a better league based on merit. In my opinion.
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Post by totaalvoetbal on Oct 13, 2015 7:41:23 GMT -5
I agree with your points rifle except the promotion/relegation issue. I'm curious why you made the comment against pro/rel... To me, relegation is necessary to prevent teams from coasting in hopes of "draft picks". That's a concept that may work in a closed league such as pointyball, but it's NG for the world game, where players want to move on to a better league based on merit. In my opinion. That's fair and honestly I get why promotion/relegation would potentially be good. However, I don't think teams "coasting" is as prevalent as you'd think. The amount of parity in the league is already the most in the world. If you begin to introduce promotion/relegation, then you automatically begin to create a "upper crust" that will splash cash and win, while now certain teams do splash cash, but are not always winning. Teams like NYRB, the revs, the whitecaps utilize youth and attacking play to win. Less teams will be willing to make those risks in a pro/rel system. I mean look at teams in the EPL who go into "relegation battles" they are much more likely to buy battle-tested tough older players to help them grit out wins. While in reality we need teams that are willing to play young American players to develop that talent and give them chances. Promotion and relegation does sound amazing sometimes, I would love to see the smaller cities like Sacramento or Edmonton try and fight and claw their way up, but logistically I don't think its best or realistic.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 13, 2015 7:56:58 GMT -5
Not sure how the pro/rel will come to MLS, they currently are running a pyramid scheme with huge buy ins and the players involved wouldn't allow there teams to get demoted/relegated.
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Post by rifle on Oct 13, 2015 16:36:11 GMT -5
My continued thought regarding pro-rel is that more teams with a pathway to the top = more opportunities for players. I love the fact that teams like AFC Bournemouth are in England are in the EPL. I really don't care about parity. In fact, I LOVE that Barcelona is an elephant - it makes every opponent fight like they're in the championship game when the get to play them.
USSF imposing rules like "must be in a major metro area" or "must have a 20,000 seat stadium" are bullcrap in my opinion - 100% proposed to appease the NFL owners who now own soccer teams because they think it'll be a good investment. I think clubs should be grown, not bought. I think MLS is steering USSF, and it's not for the good of the game, it's for the wallet of the franchisees.
If a team can obtain the level of play needed to win their league, "qualifiers" should not matter. I'd love to see a team from Providence or Tulsa or Rochester make it into the top league, on merit.
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Post by rifle on Oct 13, 2015 16:37:42 GMT -5
Not sure how the pro/rel will come to MLS, they currently are running a pyramid scheme with huge buy ins and the players involved wouldn't allow there teams to get demoted/relegated. You're right. And for USSF to cut NASL or another soccer "league" off at the neck, because MLS businessmen lobbied for it, is a tragedy for soccer.
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Post by parentsoccerfan on Oct 13, 2015 19:33:12 GMT -5
Not sure how the pro/rel will come to MLS, they currently are running a pyramid scheme with huge buy ins and the players involved wouldn't allow there teams to get demoted/relegated. You're right. And for USSF to cut NASL or another soccer "league" off at the neck, because MLS businessmen lobbied for it, is a tragedy for soccer. Agreed!
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Post by newposter on Oct 13, 2015 21:55:24 GMT -5
The situation with relegation won't work. Part of the issue is ownership. MLS owners get an equal cut of TV revenue whether their team is first or last. Sure they probably want to win but financially theres little revenue penalty if thry dont. Same is true in the NFL and MLB. Yhat's not how it works in Europe. The more successful teams get more TV revenue so there is an incentive to win.
Kids Soccer has issues too. Parents pay lots of money to clubs. I've heard in some cases with travel, costs are more than 10,000 per year. In Europe, the clubs pay expenses as they again have an monetary incentive to win. It's an investment. In the US, a main incentive is making sure there's enough parents willing to pay this money. From reading the forums, theres no shortage. It appears that for some players who have been paying. They're now on the outside looking in. Just some thoughts.
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Post by zizou on Oct 14, 2015 7:20:38 GMT -5
Wow. There is almost nothing to say about the Costa Rica match last night. To quote Liz from New Jersey from The Football Show this morning: "The main problem with the USMNT is that they are not technically proficient." Which inspired Charlie Stillitano to quip: "I thought we had gotten past the point when the second touch was a tackle." In addition to an obvious naive approach to the game, those statements pretty much sum it up.
I hate to pick on one player, but everything wrong with the USMNT can pretty much be summed up by watching DeAndre Yedlin. Fast for sure. Technical? No. Watch him try to take on a defender. Good Golly. A sophisticated soccer brain. Hmmm. What really concerns me about him is that I thought he was a shining example of DA success. Maybe I am wrong about that. But if I am not wrong, DA as a development avenue for the USMNT has a long long way to go. Maybe in its second hundred years...
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Post by zizou on Oct 14, 2015 7:26:32 GMT -5
The U23's can still qualify for the Olympics. They just need two more wins instead of one now. They are playing well, just had an off day yesterday, I guess, as I didn't see the game as my oldest son finally got to play a game despite the rain. The reason I sound pessimistic about eventual Olympics qualification now is the additional game they have to play is against Columbia in Rio if they beat Canada in the third place game. They should beat Canada, but they will be an underdog for sure in the Columbia game. Probably bad form to quote myself, but was going for some continuity. U-23s succeeded in part one of their new qualifying reality last night, beating Canada 2-0. On to Rio to face Columbia. That will be tough.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 14, 2015 8:27:49 GMT -5
Wow. There is almost nothing to say about the Costa Rica match last night. To quote Liz from New Jersey from The Football Show this morning: "The main problem with the USMNT is that they are not technically proficient." Which inspired Charlie Stillitano to quip: "I thought we had gotten past the point when the second touch was a tackle." In addition to an obvious naive approach to the game, those statements pretty much sum it up. I hate to pick on one player, but everything wrong with the USMNT can pretty much be summed up by watching DeAndre Yedlin. Fast for sure. Technical? No. Watch him try to take on a defender. Good Golly. A sophisticated soccer brain. Hmmm. What really concerns me about him is that I thought he was a shining example of DA success. Maybe I am wrong about that. But if I am not wrong, DA as a development avenue for the USMNT has a long long way to go. Maybe in its second hundred years... there is no question that the only thing yedlin brings to the table is pace. I'm just as hard on him and very disappointed with his technical ability (at least in games). The only thing to keep in mind is that he is only 22, but clearly isn't ready to play on a US national team -- why isn't he on the u23s....? seems like they could use some help....... zizou is correct though, it is dang shame that DA bangs its chest at him being a product and home grown, when all the kid has is pace. But keep in mind, I think he only played 1 year of DA, hence all the $$$ controversy with crossfire
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Post by totaalvoetbal on Oct 14, 2015 9:09:02 GMT -5
Whew! So much negativity! Pro/Rel: A couple points I feel need addressing. The revenue for different Euro leagues are given out in separate percentages. This article just talks about TV revenue, but it provides the same point. bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2015/2/20/8063543/television-revenue-and-distribution-in-the-top-european-leaguesSpain clearly has a really large deficit, while a league like the Bundesliga doesn't have too much difference from top to bottom. I don't think how the MLS distributes revenue is really going to make that much of a difference. The reason that the MLS has all those requirements about candidate cities is useful for business. If Providence could attract enough people to games, then hell yes it'd be a great place to have a team. First and foremost a city needs to be capable of handling the business side of the league before heading to the MLS. That is why there needs to be a minimum number of seats at a stadium, etc, etc. Yes the USSF is cutting the NASL off, but if you really want pro/rel, wouldn't you be ok with that? I mean the sooner we have defined 1st, 2nd, and 3rd divisions, the sooner we can get pro/rel. Let's face it the NASL is never ever going to surpass the MLS, it'll just dilute the soccer talent and really ruin the progress of stability that the MLS has made. Keep in mind the MLS is a VERY young league comparatively speaking. Technical ability: I agree our team looks pretty weak in terms of technical ability, however, I don't think Yedlin is the ideal player to pick on. Yedlin plays a position and style that focuses on spreading the game out, stretching the field, and creating counterattacks. If you are looking for technical ability from those positions in the USMNT player pool, then it'll be a long time before you see progress. Bottom line is the USMNT needs problem solvers, players with a really good soccer brain who can unlock defenses. We saw glimpses of what someone like Nguyen could do last night and there are a few more youth players coming up who I think can do the same. Overall, I agree it is a tough time for the USMNT right now and that is why I am a fervent believer in Klinsi out. That being said, the MLS is changing for the better each year, we need to have consistency and develop our youth better in order to really make positive change in U.S soccer.
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Post by blueronin on Oct 14, 2015 9:32:33 GMT -5
Wow. There is almost nothing to say about the Costa Rica match last night. To quote Liz from New Jersey from The Football Show this morning: "The main problem with the USMNT is that they are not technically proficient." Which inspired Charlie Stillitano to quip: "I thought we had gotten past the point when the second touch was a tackle." In addition to an obvious naive approach to the game, those statements pretty much sum it up. I hate to pick on one player, but everything wrong with the USMNT can pretty much be summed up by watching DeAndre Yedlin. Fast for sure. Technical? No. Watch him try to take on a defender. Good Golly. A sophisticated soccer brain. Hmmm. What really concerns me about him is that I thought he was a shining example of DA success. Maybe I am wrong about that. But if I am not wrong, DA as a development avenue for the USMNT has a long long way to go. Maybe in its second hundred years... there is no question that the only thing yedlin brings to the table is pace. I'm just as hard on him and very disappointed with his technical ability (at least in games). The only thing to keep in mind is that he is only 22, but clearly isn't ready to play on a US national team -- why isn't he on the u23s....? seems like they could use some help....... zizou is correct though, it is dang shame that DA bangs its chest at him being a product and home grown, when all the kid has is pace. But keep in mind, I think he only played 1 year of DA, hence all the $$$ controversy with crossfire But I'm willing to bet that there's a kid somewhere on a lot of youth teams that's just like yedlin and is what everyone thinks is the right kind of player. And if there wasn't that kid on the team, everyone woukd be wishing for that kid to be on their team. Never mind that he can't control a ball.
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Post by newposter on Oct 14, 2015 10:05:15 GMT -5
There is in Georgia. Problem is everyone tells him how great he is. Unfortunately like the aforementioned US player, he is technically not sound and his soccer IQ is lacking. Speed fools people.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Oct 14, 2015 10:19:25 GMT -5
even more than speed effort fools people -- I've seen so many players/kid that just play hard and fly around like crazy people
but they can't trap a ball, their first touch is worse than a brick wall, their passes and shots can't be differentiated, and every ball is banged knee to chest high regardless of the distance.
now put the 2 together speed & effort and you have the most deceptive players off all time. not a lick of skill, but dang do they work hard and fly around..........
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Post by newposter on Oct 14, 2015 10:38:32 GMT -5
Sounds like some of the kids at a program discussed on this forum often...lol.
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Post by totaalvoetbal on Oct 14, 2015 10:47:29 GMT -5
I think we all agree that the talent identification process is flawed, so how do we improve it?
Change coaching curriculum? Import Dutch, Spanish coaches? Over time it'll improve?
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Post by newposter on Oct 14, 2015 10:58:11 GMT -5
The process is flawed however those in charge defend to the end. The program is not developing those chosen.
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