Tophat - ECNL

The question so good it needs to be asked twice ;-)

In all fairness, though, it is a good question. Do they want it?

This question is one way to get the posters from the other forum to sign up and engage. Obviously a hot topic for many.

When US Club soccer set up ECNL, Tophat was not nearly as strong as they are now. Tophat has done a great job in the last few years building an extremely strong program, starting with their U15 team. If you haven't seen this team play, or their current U14 team, you should try to catch a game. They play great soccer.

When ECNL was set up, the current clubs (cf, afu, gsa) were the dominant clubs for girls soccer and rightly selected to participate in ECNL. Some may argue the affiliation of some clubs DOC's as being on the BOD of US Club soccer, but IMO, these clubs were the best girls program at that time. Now fast forward a few years, the landscape has changed in girls soccer in GA and probably needs to be re-evaluated. In addition to Tophat, UFA also has a great girls program and getting stronger each year.

But as a poster mentioned above, does Tophat really need or want ECNL as of now? It all depends on how ECNL is managed going forward and the opportunities afforded for college recruiting and recognition. But if ECNL wants the best programs in the state, its hard to keep them out.

Good response.  Also, I wonder if some clubs that might have made it in at the beginning decided to wait and see if the new league was the way to go.  For those that applied that first year it was somewhat of a leap of faith, and they got in when they might not have if they had waited.  I wonder if TH applied the first year or decided to wait to see if ECNL was the way to go.  Now it is much more difficult to get in.  Only three clubs were admitted last year.

Agreed with what has been said thus far by others - My observations in the local youth soccer landscape for girls...

When ECNL was first marketed to US youth soccer clubs in major metro markets 2008-2009 (Tophat current DOC had just been there 3-years or so), US club soccer had to gain critical mass quickly just like any new product being launched to market for the first time, hence reached out to the DOCs that were running some of the larger more successful clubs in GA at the time (CF, GSA, AFU), possibly offering incentives to join the new fraternity (quick approval, board membership, etc). After all, what can be better than the new franchise offering a new marketing tool to the local clubs' DOC to differentiate themselves against their local competitors (destination club concept).

In youth soccer, the business model has been and continue to be pretty simple: create the next "super elite" brand, and parents (customers) will "buy in" (build it and they will come). Human nature - most parents want to feel that little Mia or little Johnny is "more elite" than his/her neighbor's kid. This makes for great water cooler conversation. A clever solution for the DOCs behind ECNL was to figure out how to get this new product out to little Johnny and little Mia's parents quickly - again by marketing it to the larger, more successful, local clubs (at the time).

Why not Tophat or NASA or any other non-member club, you ask?

Another wild guess is that many local clubs including Tophat and possibly NASA did not apply on day one, and chose the "wait and see" approach. Not to say they would have gotten in over those clubs who are in now (since some of those clubs were winning state cups back then like Tophat seems to be winning now); TH or NASA may have gotten in as well had they applied on day one since the goal was probably to get lots of members early (quantity vs. quality - volume $$$). Who knows?

Three challenges for ECNL (even bigger challenges locally), I think are:

1. Coaching & Development Accountability (Not sure if they have implemented a system to measure, grade, and publicly share these Coaching report cards; this would help potential smart-educated buyers)

2. Destination Club Concept Not Working in Georgia (Perhaps the above is not enforced/emphasized since the model expects other non-member clubs (Tophat, NASA, UFA, Norcross, Rush, etc..) to develop the talent while the member clubs gain from that development attracting-recruiting players (recruiting parents) with the "elite" brand (College scholarship carrot). Perhaps, this has the reverse effect in GA where current member clubs are not able to focus on their younger team development as much as they focus on using the new recruiting tool

3. Lack of Quality Control (No process currently exists in ECNL to remove failing, mediocre, non-performing clubs) - perhaps this is coming but not yet exists since the product is only 4-5 years in the market place. This is more apparent in the Southeast division of ECNL than it is out West or in the Northeast

In summary, ECNL does some good (create an environment where top teams compete, unfortunately it is top "member" vs. top "earned" team right now, as well as create an environment where decent number of college coaches can see critical mass of talent). I am not sure they can remain credible or a be a better alternative to USYS model (vs. successful non-member clubs) if they do not come up with a way to solve some or all of the above failings.

Otherwise, Clubs like Tophat will continue to prove the flaws in the model, and perhaps establish a blueprint for other non-member clubs to follow as they strive to prove the "earned" vs. "entitled" concept of elitism.

Which elite is better? Your call...Not sure if Tophat applies, perhaps they'll just wait for the next big thing..

Hi lovethegame....

As a former player and a parent with a child who has also played both R3PL and ECNL – I wanted to bring another perspective to the question posed by the "SoccerAdmin" while using the opportunity to put some historical perspective on the current GA ECNL franchise clubs respective to the question, and current state soccer affairs in GA (from a parent's point of view).

To respond to some of your post..

1. ECNL has accomplished a lot in a 4-5 years of age, I agree with you that both leagues have something to offer different teams, different players (not disputing that as that debate has gone on, on the other board plenty enough)

2. Great deal of animosity on the other board towards ECNL - My guess is you see this on the other board for many reasons (a) 3 club DOCs vs. many club DOCs (survival of the fittest), from a numbers perspective, you will naturally see more post against vs. for (b) GA landscape is not like other States when it comes to the "destination club" concept - we have many more clubs, and the talent is spread across those clubs (will remain the case, unless further mergers take place), players/parents in GA are not as quick to pull the trigger and move to the so-called "destination clubs" (they probably put more into Coaching and social/friendship than anything else)(c) some (not all) of the clubs that have bought into the franchise are doing so great with their younger team in terms of talent pipeline, as they may have done years ago. This leads to the masses challenging the claim to the "elite" perception, particularly since the model requires middle of the pack teams moving on from the local league (Athena) to the franchise league (ECNL) at U14, no questions ask with hopes of recruiting talent away to make those teams better, as they self-promote to the new league.

3. Regarding why R3PL does not get as much flack - Again, my guess is that USYS/RPL has been around since who knows how long (I'm too lazy to look it up right now). Perception is that every USYS team has access / ability to earn their way in from year to year (not earn it years ago, and so remain in it). The league has implemented some of the promotion/relegation rules that you see in pro leagues. Every club is either developing/recruiting talent to challenge other USYS club teams at State Cup, get to the semis, and get promoted in. You see this in the EPL at the end of the season, you see it with Clubs playing to the end to get into the Champions League or UEFA league, etc... Another possible reason for this flack, is that the ECNL franchise clubs, are using the GA soccer rules to gain a competitive advantage against other non-Franchise clubs - By dual-rostering ECNL players onto their Athena/RPL teams, hence, getting some type of foreseen competitive advantage at State Cup (technically, they are not breaking the rules). This has obviously added to the flack from those outside looking in, hence the venom you see on the other board (GA soccer can fix this by changing the rules, but do my guess is do not want to alienate the ECNL clubs who are part of both league) - another possible thread?

4. As far as playing higher level competition (speed of play enhancing development) - I agree that is part of development, and ECNL provide this opportunity at showcase events while USYS provide this same opportunity at showcase events as well. I disagree that is is the most important part of development (not quite sure you are advocating this) as I'm sure you know - training environment (your Coach, and the players you are surrounded by 4-5 times a week) as well as what a player does on his/her own is a bigger factor to development. Lastly, there is lots of debate on whether or not, the quality of teams in the Southeast ECNL division enhances that development as much as the national ECNL showcase events do.

5. Regarding comparing ECNL teams to the RPL teams and the debate around who is better? Well, I am not debating this personally, but to your point, it is brought up over and over on the other board. So, it leaves one to wonder whether or not Georgia could create a top 12-team league per age group locally (3 ECNL clubs, 4 R3PL spotted teams, top 5 in Athena-A) and still get the same competitive game "enhancement to development" as you mentioned and I've addressed above item #4 at a lower cost? Good competition locally, at a lower burden cost attracting Southeast college Coaches. We would simply need to find an "elite" name tag for this fine group

Lastly, I do not take your post as a challenge to my position (not all all). We need more constructive, civil debates, versus what is going on on the other board where one occasionally finds a nugget of info (1 out of 1000 posts). Obviously, there seems to be a market for that as well.

At the end of the day, every parent situation is different, and every one does what is best for their child. My objective is to simply try to use this new forum as a tool to educate those parents who may be less educated about the subject than you are, who may be thinking about making the leap into an ECNL club team or who may be weighing the options to stay at their current non-franchise clubs.

The topic has certainly opened up other discussions about other possible sub-topics as well to help shape & guide the future of soccer development in GA as well as nationally - Here are some that I can think of:

- DA vs. ECNL (differences & similarities)?
- DA vs. ECNL (How much are they really helping the USMNT and the USWNT)? What should they change?
- Mergers of clubs in GA (pros and cons) - Do we have too many clubs?
- Would be better off with 3 mega clubs (better off competing nationally)?
- Is ECNL the death of the small/all girls/boutique club like Tophat?

Hope this helps to further open up the discussion. Thanks for the response. It's such a relief to see a civil discussion.  I can tell you that over the years I have had a love/hate relationship with ECNL (probably too strong of words, but you get the picture). There is much that I liked about watching my daughter play RPL, State Cup and Regionals.  When it comes to ECNL, I don't see that the league travel schedule is much different in RPL than it is in ECNL.  Traveling to the showcases requires two to three airplane trips a year, depending on the age of the team.  That's alot, but from what I've seen, some of the teams competing on the national level that play RPL and NPL get on planes almost as often, if not as often or even more.  We happen to have an ECNL club in our backyard.  There have been times when the appeal of an RPL team has been tempting, but we've decided it's best to keep our travel to practice as minimal as possible.  Traveling to practice just isn't something we want to do.  I just don't love the car or traffic that much. 

Here is one discussion I'd like to have, especially with someone who has played the game and has watched RPL and ECNL.  What do you think are the benefits and drawbacks of the ECNL sub rule?  I think it probably depends on where one's player fits in on a given team, as to how a parent might view it.  But, I have come to like that there isn't constant subbing. Fitness improves when a player knows that coming out of a game means they are done for the half (or the game in the case of the  U18's). They learn to manage the game and figure out how to play when they think they can't.  At the same time, some players may play all or most of the game, while others play much less.   It's a tough situation, and, as a parent, hard to watch.

I love this forum for the civility and education.  We just need to get more people to join the discussions to see where they go. 

Just a small nit. Maybe you were not intimating that Tophat is a small/boutique club. They are actually pretty large. They have 300-350 registered academy players, and they obviously only have a girls program. That probably makes them at least the third largest girls program in the state behind the two behemoths SSA and ConFire. And maybe ConFire does not have that many girls academy players registered.

Replying to a few of the opinions here:

Silverback: Ga Soccer will not help ECNL and ECNL will not help Ga Soccer. The two are competitors. ECNL with US Club, Ga Soccer with US Youth. DA, on the other hand supersedes GA Soccer since it is run by the parent body, USSF. Why DA works better than ECNL is that it is really about player development. ECNL, on the other hand is just as much about bringing in the money as it is anything else. If there is player development along the way, that's great but it's not the main objective.

Soccerpapi & Others: Tophat is all girls, was always all girls and will probably continue to be all girls. Tophat's founder has five daughters! They paved the way for girls' soccer in Georgia. Once upon a time all of the best players went their way. There was one year in which they won EVERY girls division at State Cup. At that time, Concorde was all boys. There was a move for the two to cooperate with each other since they would not be direct competitors, but then Concorde got an opportunity to add a girls team. The relationship soured at that point, to say the least. After that fiasco, I would doubt that Tophat would merge with any boys only club, nor even set up a relationship with them. I'd be willing to bet that the Rush merger idea is someone's wishful thinking - and not someone on the Tophat side either. From what I know of the Tophat leadership, it won't happen.

And to the original question - I'm not sure if Tophat applied the first year, but I know they have applied since and have been turned down. I also don't know if they are continuing to try to get in, but obviously I would say that right now ECNL needs Tophat more than Tophat needs ECNL!