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Post by rifle on Feb 26, 2014 6:11:22 GMT -5
This will be intentionally vague.. Great bunch of kids, some together since academy, some newcomers. Skill level all over the board. A 9, a couple 7's and 8's some fives and a few lower. (Out of ten, imaginary ranking as soccer players, totally subjective through rose colored glasses - my rating really isn't the point). At this small club there is just one team and they aren't going to be climbing tables, but they're plenty capable of holding their current "middle of the road" level. Most love the game and work pretty hard at it. A couple don't.. But they all get along pretty well. so here is the point.. The "small club dilemma" On one hand, if there was another team out there to mix with and make two teams, there could be a pretty darn good team on the field, capable of competing at higher level. And the 2nd team would be able to stay where they are and compete also. This situation could break the spirit of some, but suit others great. But... There isn't another team that will magically appear at tryouts. On the other hand, they could sick together and just enjoy the ride at mid level select. The weaker players will forever hold the team back, but is it really that important to win every game to win at life? truly curious what others think, or would do.
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Post by zizou on Feb 26, 2014 7:42:23 GMT -5
Just for additional clarification, the team is U12 right now and playing 8v8? Might seem trivial but it will guide my response.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Feb 26, 2014 9:08:45 GMT -5
i think zizou makes a good point, but either way your going to need a few more able bodies. The thing i would be worried about is - if 2 kids decide, soccer isn't for me, then you no longer have a team then your stuck fielding players from the younger age group week after week. or if your top 2 players end up getting picked off by larger clubs with a little bit more potentially to offer (because of siblings etc).
the situation you are describing is still very common at the large clubs, where there is a huge gap between top and 2nd teams. Alot of clubs 2nd teams, might have 1 player that is capable of stepping up and giving real minutes in a top 11v11 game. the speed of the game is much different, especially on the boys side.
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Post by fan on Feb 26, 2014 9:40:57 GMT -5
I think it depends on how likely the stronger players are to stay at the club. If they're happy and willing to stay, it could definitely work. It's also a great opportunity for those mid- and lower-level players who get to practice and play with some stronger players. The difficulty at select is that there are divisions and standings and the kids (and parents) know right where they stand against other nearby teams. It's easy to be tempted to switch clubs if you can play on a much stronger team than you're currently on and not have much more of a drive. Loss of a couple of the top players could mean moving from a middle of the road team to a lower team pretty quickly.
I live about the same distance from three clubs, one large and two small. The smallest tends to have decent academy teams but they're unable to maintain more than maybe a third of those teams into select. They combine age groups in some cases in order to have a team. Some teams completely disband. If we had been there, I probably would have kept a close eye on other options nearby. If my child really enjoyed the team, it's likely she'd go to the first day of tryouts to see the turnout but have a plan B for day 2 and 3 of tryouts just in case.
The other small club does a better job at maintaining teams and has at least one team in almost all of the age groups, but no more than two. Friends there have mostly had a good experience but the small size does hurt in some situations. Age groups that barely had enough players for two teams seem to end up with one after a year or two. Age groups with two teams with solid numbers tend to lose some of their mid-level players (if they just barely missed making the B team, why stay and play on an F team?). The disparity between the top and bottom team is usually too big to want to player pass any players from the bottom to the top team. They tend to player pass from the age group below instead. On the plus side, the weaker players on teams there are able to play with stronger players than they would at a bigger club. Fewer teams also means more attention from the DOC, etc. If my child was happy in this situation, we likely would stay.
The club where we are has gotten bigger in the past few years and has multiple teams at all age groups. There's a place for almost every skill level. Players on a team are very similar in skill. There's often not much difference between the bottom player on one team and the top player on the team below so it's easy to fill in if a player moves, gets injured, etc. On the downside, placement on teams wasn't perfect with some players being placed higher or lower than they should have been (unfortunately in some cases due to politics). Lower teams also seem to get a lot less attention from the DOC and don't get the top coaches. There's also a perception that it's easier to move to one of the top teams if you're coming from outside the club than it is from within. It's not perfect but my child is happy and will stay.
Regarding winning games, for my child it's more about being with friends than winning. However, there needs to be some balance - losing every game would be very discouraging. Staying in the middle of the pack or above is fine with her.
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Post by spectator on Feb 26, 2014 9:46:38 GMT -5
This will be intentionally vague.. Great bunch of kids, some together since academy, some newcomers. Skill level all over the board. A 9, a couple 7's and 8's some fives and a few lower. (Out of ten, imaginary ranking as soccer players, totally subjective through rose colored glasses - my rating really isn't the point). At this small club there is just one team and they aren't going to be climbing tables, but they're plenty capable of holding their current "middle of the road" level. Most love the game and work pretty hard at it. A couple don't.. But they all get along pretty well. so here is the point.. The "small club dilemma" On one hand, if there was another team out there to mix with and make two teams, there could be a pretty darn good team on the field, capable of competing at higher level. And the 2nd team would be able to stay where they are and compete also. This situation could break the spirit of some, but suit others great. But... There isn't another team that will magically appear at tryouts. On the other hand, they could sick together and just enjoy the ride at mid level select. The weaker players will forever hold the team back, but is it really that important to win every game to win at life? truly curious what others think, or would do.
Small Club Dilemma - been there done that. Your choices depend on the following: Age of the team - If U12 moving to U13, some of the better players may see the situation and jump ship leaving you with no team; if this team is already in Classic/Athena, get a pulse check from the families to see their intentions - whether to stay together or look elsewhere. Level of play - not that I put a bit of stock into the rankings at younger ages, but where is this team ranked now as an Academy team or what division are they if Classic/Athena. Higher rank/division would mean possible more unrest by your better players/families. If - for example - this team is currently playing in Athena C or D, there's a better chance the team will stay together if the players are truly enjoying it and having fun. My biggest gripe on that other forum is it seems everyone's kid is RPL. DA. ECNL or Classic1/Athena A - there ARE other levels of play and if the team has meshed and is having a good time, who cares what the level is (other than the uber competitive mommies and daddies). Commitment Level of players - are the weaker players working to improve? Doing drills on their own or taking extra sessions? Or are they just happy to be there? Are the better players frustrated or are they enjoying their teammates? If your 'stars' are frustrated or fussing at their teammates in games and practices - they're most likely to be shopping for another club. Are the weaker ones not committed enough to continue and will they quit soon? Club Recruitment/Goals - does your club actively promote their programs or advertise for tryouts? Is there another small club nearby that may have some additional players who would want to make a move? Or is that club somewhere your players would consider? There IS a large pool of talent out there and come tryouts, you never know who will show up - especially with all the rumors of mergers and coaching changes. Now my take on this - we found ourselves in almost this same situation but the decision was made for us when not enough players decided to continue and not enough players came out for tryouts to create that second team. The coach of the top team refused to take any players from the second team and that meant no second team at all - leaving a group of girls scrambling for a team. Even though my player was one of the better ones among a very wide gap in talent on that second team, we would have stayed with that coach and those players had the team not folded. Even now when my player is on a very good and much higher level team, she doesn't feel the same bonding and friendship she felt with her old team - it's slowly developing but there's a real grieving process when your team just folds and goes away. It happens in every club at every age,though - club politics, crazy parents, jerk coaches and the inevitable process of kids just dropping out of the sport - it's rare a team will stay together from Academy to U19. In your case, you only have one team so if your player is committed and wants to continue, you should probably always have a Plan B in the back of your mind. If your situation is a U12 team, definitely have players try out at other clubs for U13 just in case. If you're already in Classic/Athena now, still consider trying out elsewhere OR start to engage on the sidelines with parents at other small clubs - they're probably in the same dilemma as you are and maybe you could put together another group to form a stronger team or a second team. It's sad - there are great benefits to being part of a smaller club and frankly, Georgia Soccer needs those clubs - not every kid is right for the mega club with multiple teams spread out over every level and geographic location. There's a lot to be said for a good soccer club right in your own back yard - even if your team will never even compete at State Cup much less win it! |
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Post by rifle on Feb 26, 2014 10:40:20 GMT -5
Just for additional clarification, the team is U12 right now and playing 8v8? Might seem trivial but it will guide my response. It is a select team. |
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Post by rifle on Feb 26, 2014 11:28:47 GMT -5
I can't crop a quote successfully, so doing it manually.. spectator said: In your case, you only have one team so if your player is committed and wants to continue, you should probably always have a Plan B in the back of your mind. If your situation is a U12 team, definitely have players try out at other clubs for U13 just in case. If you're already in Classic/Athena now, still consider trying out elsewhere OR start to engage on the sidelines with parents at other small clubs - they're probably in the same dilemma as you are and maybe you could put together another group to form a stronger team or a second team.me: This is it. "The club" cannot magically make kids appear. If there was an alliance, or even a gentleman's agreement, two clubs could mix teams for the benefit of both clubs... but there isn't one. So it seems we must work out a mass exodus on the down-low, or we set ourselves up for the great unknown. Either way seems less than ideal. I can see why mega clubs make sense to so many. |
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Post by spectator on Feb 26, 2014 12:42:31 GMT -5
I feel for you - it's really hard to leave something you like - harder on your player, too.
OK - here's your reality - the good and the bad:
Tryouts at a larger club will blow your mind. Coming from a small club to the tryout process at a large one was THE. MOST. STRESSFUL. THING. EVER! We'd never had more than 30 players at a tryout at any club we were at - making at team was never an issue. When you see literally hundreds of kids vying for maybe 60-70 spots, it becomes this unbelievable jockeying for position like you've never seen. Depending on how the club sets up the tryouts, you will be able to figure out which kids are being looked at for which teams - you'll see some smug smiles on parents faces as little Johnny is up with the Elite kids or some disgusted grumbling when little Johnny is put on the fields with the lower level teams. Don't read too much into that during tryouts. Typically the new kids will land where they need to be. It DOES matter where and what level you played before so bear that in mind. Coming from a C level team to a new club, the player will most likely be put with the C or lower level teams at tryouts. However, the newer players are the most likely to be moved from field to field during a tryout so I can attest to the fact that my player got a very very fair tryout this year - she started on the lower level fields and was moved very quickly to the fields with the higher teams.
Now the good side of being the 'newbie' at the tryout - well, good and bad. Bad is that the parents/players currently there will view you and your kid as the biggest threat ever. Some will be downright nasty - others will not. Let it roll off your back - parents who get that caught up in the fact your player may push their cupcake down are the same parents you'd avoid on the sidelines anyway. The good news is that coaches will give the newbies their attention first. Every coach thinks that this will be the year a little Abby or Messi will join his team and they salivate at each new face. Your child WILL get a fair look if they are new to a club and trying out. Especially so if your team has played a team of that particular coach - you'd be surprised what coaches see and remember. This worked out in our favor when we moved - the coaches remembered seeing my daughter and two other players because our old team had played them several times in tournaments and regular season games for years.
I won't lie to you - it's not fun. It's hard to leave behind a coach and friends you've bonded with on the field and sidelines for years. It's produced our share of tears this year and even caused my player to doubt herself and her desire to play the game. BUT - it's temporary. You will land where you land and if you've made friends at one club, you'll make them at another. What I have loved about being at a bigger club is how much better organized things are. That and we love our coach, the parents and players truly have accepted and embraced the newcomers and made them feel like such a vital part of this team. My daughter now considers her entire team to be her best friends and I really like the parents and kids. Still miss our old crew but life is about moving on and meeting new people. I wish you luck on your change - it'll turn out for the best - even if you hate it while it's happening.
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Post by rifle on Feb 26, 2014 16:49:30 GMT -5
It is tough because the really good friends are at various skill levels. If we stay, they most likely play together. Going elsewhere together would be desirable but no guarantees
It's a shame small clubs don't form alliances to blend rosters. The paid staff have census incentives, so that's never gonna occur. Can you imagine a DOC calling another and doing joint training, with the goal of offering half a team in exchange for another? That'd be cool.
/back to reality
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Post by Soccerhouse on Feb 26, 2014 17:30:19 GMT -5
I guess you need to decide if your child is playing soccer for the social interaction or for the competition. But most importantly take an honest assessment of your child's skill level and what their and your goals are.
My daughters team is a good example of a bunch of girls who are all great friends - but to be honest, the team and most the players lack commitment and drive. My daughter recognizes that and we will be looking at different options come may. My daughter has seen and played good soccer and understands that certain players are holding them back, even if those girls are very good friends she is disappointed with their commitment.
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Post by rifle on Feb 26, 2014 18:22:10 GMT -5
I guess you need to decide if your child is playing soccer for the social interaction or for the competition. But most importantly take an honest assessment of your child's skill level and what their and your goals are. My daughters team is a good example of a bunch of girls who are all great friends - but to be honest, the team and most the players lack commitment and drive. My daughter recognizes that and we will be looking at different options come may. My daughter has seen and played good soccer and understands that certain players are holding them back, even if those girls are very good friends she is disappointed with their commitment. The choice will belong to my kid, not me. Goals are to enjoy the game, learn something about life and compete. |
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Post by spectator on Feb 26, 2014 21:18:14 GMT -5
It is tough because the really good friends are at various skill levels. If we stay, they most likely play together. Going elsewhere together would be desirable but no guarantees It's a shame small clubs don't form alliances to blend rosters. The paid staff have census incentives, so that's never gonna occur. Can you imagine a DOC calling another and doing joint training, with the goal of offering half a team in exchange for another? That'd be cool. /back to reality The Cobb YMCA's tried the blended roster thing a few years ago at Academy. it was a miserable failure - one club basically poached the other for goalies and strikers for the top team then threw the rest together for games. In the end, at least at our age group, it was the ultimate demise of the program - almost every single girl left for new clubs. It's a great idea in theory but when you factor in coaches and parents egos -even at young academy ages, plus the fact the person in charge was a total dufus and couldn't have manged his own club much less the 2 he was trying to blend, it was a cluster from the get go. It'd take a special DOC from both clubs to manage this - haven't met one that special in all the years my kid has been playing. On a more positive note - friendships that are real won't go away. We still keep in touch with our old teammates and even had a mini-reunion over the holidays for the girls and parents. You can still have that closeness while giving your player the chance to be more competitive or play with other kids with the same commitment and skill level |
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Post by zizou on Mar 29, 2014 17:29:08 GMT -5
As have many others, we had this same situation. Our kids played at a small club that has been inconsistently managed over the years. There are some good teams and some very marginal ones (not surprising when seeing the uneven coaching quality). Some age groups are unable to conjure enough players to have even one team. Our younger daughter happens to be on a pretty good squad with a pretty good coach; the older one was on a team with nice kids, a few soccer players, and an exquisitely mediocre coach. They lost a number of quality players to bigger clubs over the years, and we are pretty distant from those other clubs so families that took this step made considerable travel commitments. We stuck it out, mostly because our player was always happy to play with these girls and seemed to like the coach.
It is accurate to say that our player improved considerably more over a 2 year time span than all the other kids on the team. So much so that when you would watch training it was usually pretty clear what was going on out there. It also got to the point in drills where the other kids would activity root for any kid going up against her. She did not care; she took it as a point of pride. But this also meant that most of the other kids on her team were not really her friends any more. At some point she started to express being irritated with how things were going, with the amount of work they were doing during training, that the other kids could not do things, etc. Then it progressed to I wish I played for a better team. Then it ended with "Please can you find me a better team?" This was without us saying a word to her about moving. We found her guest plays at some good tournaments with some good teams, and she ended up really liking one of them. And they liked her. We investigated other options within or current club (training with older girls, training with boys teams, etc), but nothing was that great of an option. That is when we decided to give a different team and club a try even though it was a considerable travel commitment. This is not a decision we made without considerable thought. So she effectively switched teams without needing to go through the rigors of tryouts (which Spectator so wonderfully described). And she is very happy. She considers girls on the new team her friends, they are one of the better teams in the state, and our player really feels like she has been liberated. The level of play and the level of training is so different that it is really shocking. I feel kind of badly for leaving her in the old environment for longer than was optimal, but she never complained so we though she was fine with what she had. But it was also the case that I ended up feeling deceived by the old coach who would often say how things at the bigger clubs were just not that different and that kids at bigger clubs are just a number. I have found this to be untrue, at least if your kid can really play. It turns out to be hard to find athletic kids with skill even at the giant clubs. And they do not want to lose those kids. We were naive. By the way, our younger player is still at our original club because she is having a great experience.
Anyway, fan was correct about the losing a few top players issue. That can kill everything very very fast. This is because as you see quite clearly, Rifle, that these clubs cannot just start to conjure players out of thin air. More kids do not start playing in the Select age ranges, and the competition for players with ability start to get more intense. This is why I do not think it matters what the clubs says or tries to do about recruiting if you are a small club. I have learned to take everything they say along these lines with a grain of salt. They are not the only option, and not even the best option many times. Why are players going to magically show up on your doorstep? This is why I am also in total sympathy with your frustration about small clubs not forming alliances with other neighboring small clubs. They have to find a way to make this work. I do not care if it has been tough to make work smoothly before. Figure it out. Get over yourselves. Develop creative solutions. This will benefit the greatest number of kids. Isn't the interest of the kids who want to play soccer, and who might have very different skill and athleticism levels, supposed to be your primary interest? If small clubs continue with the status quo they are failing at their jobs. Parents should demand more than mediocrity. They do for school. Why not for this? They spend enough money on it every year.
Along these same lines, though, it is so important to try and be realistic about our kids' ability levels. You cannot hide from your skill and athleticism. You can do things to try and improve them, but it is dangerous to think the kids are something they are not. There are some really really good players out there; they have obviously worked very very hard to get that good. Our older player knows we are willing to give this a try a season at a time given the considerable travel commitment. It does not make sense for us to drive so far if she is not one of the better players on team. In fact, it is crazy. School and a social life are so much more important. But right now it is working. If that was not the case we would re-evaluate. That would be a tough conversation, but I am pretty sure we would let it go long enough that she might see it before we brought it up if things ever came to that.
I wish you and your kid luck, rifle, in coming to some decision about what steps to take. I can tell you our older player is so much happier playing with kids that are more equal in ability level and soccer interest to her. Right now she is good with the sacrifices she has to make. It is way more demanding both physically and psychologically but that does not seem to be a negative for her. She is even okay with not being able to make the same level of obvious impact on games as she could before. She still makes an impact on games, but it not because she runs all over the pitch doing things other kids should be doing. She feels like she has her job, and she wants to do that job to the best of her ability. So I think there are also opportunities for positive personal grown if you do make a move at some point.
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Post by rifle on Mar 29, 2014 20:01:28 GMT -5
Very good story Zizou. Love to talk soccer. The "home (small) club" team this spring is doing very well, in a weak division. Great coach and most of the team is improving and gaining confidence. Have played the big club teams very well this spring, which is a boost.
Still curious about the other options.. So my kid and a couple teammates tried out for two SuperY teams recently. Mine was offered a spot on both. It was hard telling a SuperY coach thanks but no.. But we will get a taste this summer of higher level play and teammates.
Time will tell where this leads.
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Post by zizou on Mar 30, 2014 10:31:20 GMT -5
So my kid and a couple teammates tried out for two SuperY teams recently. Mine was offered a spot on both. It was hard telling a SuperY coach thanks but no.. But we will get a taste this summer of higher level play and teammates. Time will tell where this leads. Super Y is a great idea. You will hear various people say various things about this program, but there are still some good kids playing. It is also a nice possible recruiting tool for clubs with teams, so it is great that your kid made the squads. Congratulations to him. If practices start before tryouts, you might get some really good information about how your kid would fit with that Classic team next fall, again without needing to base everything on the limited time tryout experience. If it is the same coach for Super Y and the Classic team even better, but you can bet that the coach for next Fall at least will be around regardless. |
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Post by silverback on Mar 30, 2014 14:09:00 GMT -5
Super Y has definitely been good for my kids. Keeps them practicing in the summer and getting touches. IMO- not always the best competition, especially outside of Atlanta, but there are some good teams. Also, Super Y has an ODP/National Camp in February at IMG. Invitation is based on performance during the summer (coaches vote on top players during the game). If you kid gets selected to attend, it's a great experience and at the end of the camp, they select the top players for each age group as their national select team. Always good for the resume.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Mar 31, 2014 8:01:54 GMT -5
in my opinion if your around the summer, supper y is a good opportunity to get touches on the ball etc.
i like to give my kids june/july off, they basically play from aug through the end of may.
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Post by rifle on Mar 31, 2014 19:03:06 GMT -5
I am concerned that there will be "no down" time before fall season.. usually just swim in summertime... but opportunity may be knocking and we won't know unless we try.
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