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NPL
Jan 22, 2019 13:53:13 GMT -5
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Post by ultimatedad on Jan 22, 2019 13:53:13 GMT -5
Would you no longer consuder NPL a second rate league if it was rebranded "ECNL 2"?
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Post by olderthandirt on Jan 22, 2019 14:36:42 GMT -5
Would you no longer consuder NPL a second rate league if it was rebranded "ECNL 2"? No. I'd still consider this alphabet league exactly the same as I think of it and all of the other alphabet leagues now: an excuse to pretend that the one league that your child plays in is somehow better than any of the many other leagues out there. All of these competing leagues exist for pretty much the same reason - to separate as much money as possible from the wallets of parents who have demonstrated that they will pay for the next shiny new thing.
Don't get me wrong. I've paid good money for my children to play youth soccer. But I've never been hung up on what team or league my children have played for over the years. I've selected the teams based primarily on where my children's friends play and travel time from home during rush hour.
In my opinion, it is foolish to try to categorize players by what level league their team plays in. I've never understood how anyone can make an assumption on a player's ability based only on the league his/her team plays in. I've seen tremendous players who later played in college who played on Classic 3 and below level club teams. I've seen players who play on ECNL teams who truly would have been much better served playing on a recreation team somewhere.
So ends the rant, go in peace.
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NPL
Jan 22, 2019 15:36:13 GMT -5
Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 22, 2019 15:36:13 GMT -5
Honestly, why would we NEED an ECNL 2? We have 2 top leagues in the US. We need the bigger clubs to pick which league they want to be a part of on their own. DA clubs can have DA and ECNL clubs can have ECNL (and Tophat can have both if ECNL allows it). And the ECNL clubs we have need to stop trying to strangle out the local competition.
AFC's gold teams are just about ECNL quality (better than some of the FL ECNL teams), certainly worth a shot to give them a provisional ECNL slot.
SSA could stop using CF's 2nd spot and their "premier" team could play under their own ECNL banner. The 2 SSA age groups with teams in the CF Alliance are bottom of the table in NPL, so its looking like their 2nd team is not even NPL quality. The rest of their age groups (SSA 1st team) seem competitive in NPL.
UFA...they own the NPL brackets in pre-DA ages, and are even generally pretty competitive above that. They have DA though, they don't need ECNL.
But in the current soccer climate we live in, its unlikely a money-making alphabet league will go away.
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Post by surgesoccer on Jan 22, 2019 22:33:01 GMT -5
Would that make SCCL ENCL 3?
I actually like where this is going but why call it ECNL. Why not US Club Division 1, 2 and 3. Then while you're changing the name sprinkle in a little relegation.
Or how about just two divisions with playing teams in Georgia. Then create a Champions league where you qualify to play teams from NC, SC, TN, etc.
Build it good enough and you may see some teams in US Soccer gravitating over.
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 6:07:01 GMT -5
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Post by rifle on Jan 23, 2019 6:07:01 GMT -5
I preferred when players accomplished things as a team, not by virtue of their club being placed.
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 7:48:50 GMT -5
Post by infoguy on Jan 23, 2019 7:48:50 GMT -5
Would you no longer consuder NPL a second rate league if it was rebranded "ECNL 2"? What's the basis for this question? Is it a possible change in U.S. Club Soccer?
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 23, 2019 9:10:36 GMT -5
I preferred when players accomplished things as a team, not by virtue of their club being placed. I am torn by this...we have played in both types of teams. When you are on a team that has to earn its promotion as a kid, how much time is spent developing the player versus the team? Soccer is a team sport, but to get noticed for ODP, colleges, other goals that kids might want to achieve you have to be an excellent INDIVIDUAL player. The kid who passes the best is not noticed. It is the kid who dribbles through everyone. Those kids either have to not care what a coach and their teammates think about that selfish approach or it has to be encouraged. Too much focus on wins and losses pressures kids to make the "safe" play rather than the one that makes them a better, more skilled individual player. I understand the sense of team accomplishment that comes with promotion (we had that last year). I can see how that appeals to people. I also know that there were times that I got frustrated watching the bottom third of the team struggle after our promotion. I wished they were off the field and the better girls were on so that we could succeed yet again. Our coach was fair to the lower kids, making sure they got playing time, but it did hurt the team as a whole. He was the exception, though. Most coaches will want to win badly enough to cut the minutes of those lesser players. Now we are in an alphabet league. I watch my child caring that the games are competitive. Wanting well-matched teams that challenge the players. Sure we still want to win. My family is like that...everything is a competition, but here we know our games will be competitive regardless so there is less pressure to win the games to keep them competitive. I don't know if I am articulating this the way I want to, but my point is that in the alphabet league we KNOW the teams we will be playing are on our level. Every team can have a bad day and get blown out, but that is rare. In the Ga Soccer system there were some teams that were just horrible. It was a waste to play them from a development standpoint. That boils down to misplaced teams and sometimes a few key players that left and a strong team was then significantly weaker. Even that rule of keeping 8 or 11 or whatever it is, only helps so much. Then the rules on promotion and relegation are sometimes fair and sometimes not. I have heard that the bottom 6 of the Piedmont Conference are getting relegated. If that is true, then I feel badly for some teams who went 5 wins, 5 losses and a draw or some others with similar win loss records that are getting dropped. That is absurd to drop half of the field! I see the appeal of prom/rel. I see the appeal of alphabet leagues. Personally I am happy to have my kid playing in an alphabet league that is more challenging to the players than the US Youth/Georgia Soccer one was. I think that the alphabet leagues just need to be picky about who they choose for their clubs and clubs need to pick the right team.
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 12:15:43 GMT -5
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Post by mistergrinch on Jan 23, 2019 12:15:43 GMT -5
oraclesfriend put it best.
promotion/relegation is a double edged sword. It fosters competition and theoretically ends up with well-matched leagues by teams who earned their way there.
However, it kills player development.. because coaches are judged by wins. Throw in the constant club-hopping that goes on, and it becomes a much bigger issue.
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Post by surgesoccer on Jan 23, 2019 16:01:35 GMT -5
I get the point on relegation possibly hurting development. But with or without it coaches and teams are still judged on wins and future potential. Plus you will always have club hoppers who think the grass is greener somewhere else. Sometimes it is.
I think most parents would like to say winning doesn't matter, it's all about the development. But I think they go hand in hand. If you develop the kids and teach them the skills and strategy aspects then that should reflect itself to some degree in the form of wins. I view games as the exam that occurs to see how individuals and the team are progressing. But we also have to remember every win is not a win and every loss is not a loss. Depends upon how the players and team performed.
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 16:05:40 GMT -5
Post by soccermaxx72 on Jan 23, 2019 16:05:40 GMT -5
I view NPL similar to mid to upper SCCL
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 17:06:43 GMT -5
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 23, 2019 17:06:43 GMT -5
I view NPL similar to mid to upper SCCL How many SCCL teams have you played? How many NPL teams? I think it depends on age group and gender too. There is much overlap between the various alphabet leagues in quality. The tough part is that those teams only play each other in tournaments and sometimes there are guests players playing that muddy the waters. Plus as another poster said a win isn't always a win and a loss isn't always a loss. The game is a bit difficult in that the best team doesn't always win. Also some teams match up better than others so team A might beat team B and B might beat C and C might beat A.
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 18:27:21 GMT -5
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Post by ultimatedad on Jan 23, 2019 18:27:21 GMT -5
And that is the beauty of these leagues. No one plays anyone so everyone thinks their league is just as good as everyone else's league. We all are elite and can't possibly play the team down the street. Sorry for the rant.
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 19:06:31 GMT -5
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Post by surgesoccer on Jan 23, 2019 19:06:31 GMT -5
We're an SCCL team that has played some NPL and National LEague Tier 1 and 2 teams.
Vs Roswell National League Tier 1: Lost 2-0 Vs GA Rush National League Tier 2: Tie 0-0 Vs Inter Atlanta National League Tier 2: 0-0 Vs UFA 06 DA: won 5-0 Vs Smyrna Tier 1: Lost 1-0 on 68th minute goal... that hurt Vs Concorde ECNL: won 3-1 Vs UFA Fowler NPL: Won 4-3
Upcoming games next weekend include GA Rush, SSA NPL and UFA Fowler NPL. Following week Atlanta United 06's.
So mixed results. All this means is that a top SCCL team can compete with teams in other league (at our age and gender). Second and third team could probably compete as well. Remaining 5 would have some trouble.
With DA influx next year hopefully SCCL improves in year 2.
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NPL
Jan 23, 2019 19:08:56 GMT -5
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 23, 2019 19:08:56 GMT -5
And that is the beauty of these leagues. No one plays anyone so everyone thinks their league is just as good as everyone else's league. We all are elite and can't possibly play the team down the street. Sorry for the rant. Not me. I think the order is clear on the girls side DA/ECNL/NPL/SCCL with some overlap between the top and bottom teams at each level. More overlap between DA and ECNL than DA would like to admit. I think friendlies should be scheduled more often between the leagues too. The one that is harder to place is the Piedmont Conference. I think it is overlapping between ECNL and NPL and a little of SCCL too. Best Piedmont Conference teams can compete well with ECNL I believe. NPL is the easiest to figure out because there are between 3 and 6 or 7 teams in NPL that also play Piedmont per age group for the girls. But honestly how does this even differ between high school divisions? There is no promotion/relegation there in any sport. The determination is based solely on size of the school, not quality of the players. There is overlap between the best of 4A and the worst to mid of 5A for example. In team sports like football or even tennis there is no way to compare a kid from a small school and one from Mill Creek for example. They will never play each other even at the state championship level.
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NPL
Jan 24, 2019 13:22:54 GMT -5
Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 24, 2019 13:22:54 GMT -5
I believe GSA 06G ECNL plays UFA 06G NPL (pre-DA I believe) this weekend in a friendly. This should be a thing all clubs do in August and January (my kid is at neither club). You see how you stack up and you get some much needed game experience. Kudos to both teams.
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NPL
Jan 24, 2019 14:35:46 GMT -5
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 24, 2019 14:35:46 GMT -5
I see, but does UFA have 05's playing on their 04 team? And so on? Or is the 05 team going to be weaker in next year without these 06's? I assume the 06's will pull 07's in the fall also. So really, I guess if you're always doing this, the team you've got is the team you've got, because for the U13's you're NEVER playing their whole group for that age year.
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NPL
Jan 24, 2019 16:40:11 GMT -5
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 24, 2019 16:40:11 GMT -5
I see, but does UFA have 05's playing on their 04 team? And so on? Or is the 05 team going to be weaker in next year without these 06's? I assume the 06's will pull 07's in the fall also. So really, I guess if you're always doing this, the team you've got is the team you've got, because for the U13's you're NEVER playing their whole group for that age year. No one (except maybe the coaches) know what they will do next year, but that is NOT the general way UFA DA teams work. The 06 premier team coach for the previous season is this year's U14 DA coach. That premier team was very good and knew his way of play. There are no 05 girls on the 04 DA team. The future DA plan to add single year age groups at U16 (and presumably U17 unless they are going to do a U17/18/19 team) would suggest that the plan of using a ton of play ups would not be wise as they won't be shared teams as young as they used to be. Regardless I think it is great that GSA and UFA are doing a friendly and the UFA 06 Premier team that plays NPL should still be a decent team for them to play. It will help the kids to play and I agree that the clubs should do more of this.
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NPL
Jan 24, 2019 17:18:19 GMT -5
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 24, 2019 17:18:19 GMT -5
No one (except maybe the coaches) know what they will do next year, but that is NOT the general way UFA DA teams work. The 06 premier team coach for the previous season is this year's U14 DA coach. That premier team was very good and knew his way of play. There are no 05 girls on the 04 DA team. The future DA plan to add single year age groups at U16 (and presumably U17 unless they are going to do a U17/18/19 team) would suggest that the plan of using a ton of play ups would not be wise as they won't be shared teams as young as they used to be. Regardless I think it is great that AFU and UFA are doing a friendly and the UFA 06 Premier team that plays NPL should still be a decent team for them to play. It will help the kids to play and I agree that the clubs should do more of this. I think the UFA NPL team at that age group is very good. They also have an excellent coach working with them. It’s obviously hard to predict one-off results for preteens, but I would guess over a series of games they would beat the GSA ECNL team more times than not. Although the styles are very different. GSA’s 06 girls typically lean toward kick and rush. UFA’s NPL team is very possession oriented. Will be an interesting clash of styles. I agree that UFA 06 NPL is very good and that it is hard to predict preteens or even teens for that matter.🤣 I know kids on both of those teams...in fact due to the age group change and other factors one of my children has actually been on teams with girls that now play on those teams. It is a great idea and more of this should happen! Sorry about the mistake on clubs. I fixed it in my post.
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Post by surgesoccer on Feb 3, 2019 21:09:27 GMT -5
We played an inter-league round robin this weekend. These were just scrimmages we set up so nothing official but good opportunity to have NL, NPL and SCCL teams compete. Each team played three games against the other teams involved. The best thing about the weekend was that total cost per team was $90 (50% cost for a center ref per team per game).
About 10% what it cost these days to play a local tournament when you consider $600 -$700 tournaments fee and $100 per Diem and $10 travel for coach.
Results from the games (u14 boys)
- GA Rush (National League Tier 2) vs UFA Norcross(SCCL): 3-0 UFA Norcross
- UFA Fowler (NPL) vs (SSA NPL): 2-0 UFA Fowler
- UFA Norcross (SCCL) vs UFA Fowler (NPL): 2-2 tie
- SSA (NPL) vs UFA Norcross (SCCL): 1-1 tie
- GA Rush (National League Tier 2) vs UFA Fowler (NPL): 1-1 tie
- SSA (NPL) vs GA Rush: 4-3 SSA.
The excitement factor of a tournament was missing but good way to kick off the Spring season. With so many different leagues and not as much opportunity to play some local teams this is a good way to get some games in against good competition and at a low cost.
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NPL
Feb 3, 2019 21:58:50 GMT -5
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Post by soccerparent02 on Feb 3, 2019 21:58:50 GMT -5
Please take this as no slam on any team or player. I'm thankful there are options for every level player however there simply is a talent difference in leagues. For girls ECNL followed by GDA then the rest. For boys DA followed very closely by ECNL with some age groups top ECNL is same as DA. If an ECNL team has C3 players on it that's a coach and club issue.
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NPL
Feb 4, 2019 9:17:41 GMT -5
Post by fridge on Feb 4, 2019 9:17:41 GMT -5
Please take this as no slam on any team or player. I'm thankful there are options for every level player however there simply is a talent difference in leagues. For girls ECNL followed by GDA then the rest. For boys DA followed very closely by ECNL with some age groups top ECNL is same as DA. If an ECNL team has C3 players on it that's a coach and club issue. As a blanket over generalization this has some truth to it. Nationwide, there typically is a difference between DA, ECNL, NPL, etc. But if you zero in on particular age groups locally, this statement is much less accurate. A couple examples on the girls side: UFA Milton’s 00 girls (NL and NPL) and SSA’s 00 girls (NPL) are two of the best teams in the state in their age group regardless of league. Both are better than any team in the city except probably Concorde’s exceptional U19 ECNL team and Tophat’s U18/U19 DA team. If you look at the 2003 age group, the best team in the state regardless of league is likely AFC’s 03 girls (NPL and PC). You could argue that Tophat might be able to put together a better group of 03s, but since they are split between the younger part of the U16/U17 DA and ECNL, that’s a hypothetical for the time being. GSA is undefeated in ECNL this year but having seen both teams play numerous times, I can confidently say I would bet my house that AFC would beat them far more than they wouldn’t. So all that said, while your statement might ring true on a national level, here in Atlanta the picture is much more cloudy when you really start looking at some of these age groups. You say that for OO's that UFA Milton and SSA NPL are two of the best teams except "probably" CF ECNL and TH DA team. One way of assessing talent is what do the college coaches think. I know for the CF ECNL team a large majority are going to a Big 5 conference including USC (Southern Cal--2 kids), Tennessee, UGA (2), Clemson, Stanford, Tennessee, Texas, West Virginia, Kansas, etc. (The CF 02 has similar resume.) Also, I know the TH team has very similar Big 5 conf. commits. Where are the UFA Milton and SSA kids going? (This is not rhetorical, I have no idea and am curious to see if kids were getting Big 5 conference opps outside of ECNL and DA teams.)
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NPL
Feb 4, 2019 9:50:50 GMT -5
Post by fridge on Feb 4, 2019 9:50:50 GMT -5
Florida and Vandy are ligit! Good to hear.
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NPL
Feb 4, 2019 10:31:16 GMT -5
Post by atlfutboldad on Feb 4, 2019 10:31:16 GMT -5
At this point the NPL is looking stronger than NL (based on performance of teams that play in both leagues). This weekend the GA NL 06 teams had a rough going against NC teams. They went 0-6-2, getting outscored 3-17.
Like the chart GSA gave us last spring (and unlike the one GA Soccer put out), this appears to the the standing of the alphabet of leagues:
DA == ECNL NPL SCCL == NL Athena A (and below)
The next 2 weekend's top local tournaments will tell us a lot about the quality of NPL/SCCL/A teams against one another.
The NTH GDA/ECNL decision is going to send some shockwaves through several levels of girls soccer in GA. Especially if they pick GDA.
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NPL
Feb 4, 2019 12:59:16 GMT -5
Post by atlfutboldad on Feb 4, 2019 12:59:16 GMT -5
I wish the board was split at the very least along boys/girls lines (adding a pro and international sub boards also). I have zero input on the boys side and don't even care to know about it.
Agreed on individual games not mattering that much, it was more of an observation the weekend for all 4 clubs. That's a lot of players out...if the games mattered to me, I'd have tried to reschedule. They were at least one of the 2 who tied a game. 3-17 on goals is a poor showing on the weekend. I'd put this on the dilution of the USYS leagues.
Really, the AFC teams in both are the best gauge we have of the 2 leagues between NL/NPL. There are also NC and SC teams in both leagues.
Hypothetical for AFC...if AFC joins SCCL, what will they do about the NPL? Since this thread started as a discussion of NPL, IMO it would be pretty cool if NPL became a "champions league" of sorts with relation to SCCL. In other words, you would remain in SCCL, but the top 4 teams would ALSO play in the NPL in the following spring/fall (likely always promoting/relegating 2). SCCL => NPL => ECNL showcases. Would make sense for USCS, but unlikely those clubs would give up one of their list of alphabet leagues.
In the 2 age groups where SCCL is on the CF alliance, their NPL teams seem really out of their depth (and that also translates to the 06's in SCCL, the 05's are noticeably stronger). Kinda tells me they don't have the talent depth to run ECNL and NPL at the same time at the moment.
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