|
|
Post by fridge on Jul 8, 2019 14:17:01 GMT -5
Let me begin by saying I hope all involved find a way to pay the USWNT more money. And, I think companies like Nike, Luna Bar, and Budweiser are filling in the gaps.
HOWEVER, 99% of the articles from ligit news sources including the Wall Street Journal talk about how the woman get $30,000,000 from FIFA and men get $400,000,000 from FIFA without ever mentioning the woman's world cup takes in about $130,000,000 in revenue and the men's world cup takes in over $4.0 billion in revenue. The former is then re-tweeted thousands of times so that the mindless get the wrong information. Omitting the total revenue numbers is completely misleading and intellectually dishonest. Actually, the woman's cut of total revenue is better than the men's.
Isn't the omission very material to the discussion and so, intellectually dishonest?
|
|
|
|
Post by atlsoccerdad on Jul 8, 2019 18:24:15 GMT -5
Let me begin by saying I hope all involved find a way to pay the USWNT more money. And, I think companies like Nike, Luna Bar, and Budweiser are filling in the gaps. HOWEVER, 99% of the articles from ligit news sources including the Wall Street Journal talk about how the woman get $30,000,000 from FIFA and men get $400,000,000 from FIFA without ever mentioning the woman's world cup takes in about $130,000,000 in revenue and the men's world cup takes in over $4.0 billion in revenue. The former is then re-tweeted thousands of times so that the mindless get the wrong information. Omitting the total revenue numbers is completely misleading and intellectually dishonest. Actually, the woman's cut of total revenue is better than the men's. Isn't the omission very material to the discussion and so, intellectually dishonest? It is a fairly complicated issue to be sure. Not sure omitting the total revenue of the World Cup is `intellectually dishonest`... but it is an important fact in the discussion. However World Cup revenue is just one aspect of the story in general. Here is a pretty good article that describes why it is so hard compare the women's and men's pay: www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/are-us-womens-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men Summary: the base salary is different, the number of games played is different, the bonus structure is different, the pay for losing games is different, the men's and women's expenses are different, etc. In fact, almost nothing about the men's and women's games are easy to compare... except maybe wins and losses. |
|
|
|
Post by defensewins on Jul 9, 2019 7:46:45 GMT -5
I agree with you. Those numbers should be reported to get a clear and fair picture. But I think that the lower revenue is also partially the fault of FIFA and their lack of advertising or resources allocated to provide outlets to allow people to buy merchandise. My daughter and I were able to go to the USA vs Sweden game in Le Havre. We spent several days in Paris before the game as well. My observations: * The only place we saw anything about the World Cup in Paris was at the Fox desk near the Eiffel Tower and the pitiful excuse of a "fan experience" in the city. We went there hoping to be able to purchase shirts, etc. prior to our match day. Was that possible? Nope! * At the reportedly sold-out match vs Sweden in Le Havre - I think there were only 4 locations open to buy merchandise - 2 outside and 2 inside the stadium. You could not get to any of these until gates opened 2 hours prior to kick-off. And then, the lines for these were incredibly long. Sizes for most shirts were sold out well before the match began. While standing in line, I was speaking to some fellow fans - they had attended another match where there was no one working the stands there for the entirety of the match. I've never been to a men's World Cup. But, others in the line with me mentioned that merchandise was readily available everywhere - starting at the airport when you got off the plane. I have no doubt that the amount of revenue for the WWC would be higher if FIFA (or whomever is responsible for these types of things) would have had more merchandise and places to purchase it available. I know that I likely would have spent more money if only there were things available for me to buy. I wasn't the only one to think these things - and apparently it was a problem at the last Women's World Cup as well: www.washingtonpost.com/sports/soccer/world-cup-merchandise-is-hard-to-find-despite-sports-growing-popularity/2019/07/01/b0186718-9c1c-11e9-9ed4-c9089972ad5a_story.html?utm_term=.be7e4395d24c. www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2019/07/07/fifa-earns-a-red-card-for-poor-event-management-at-the-2019-womens-world-cup/#5227b6893d6d |
|
|
|
Post by mistergrinch on Jul 9, 2019 8:21:13 GMT -5
defensewins - I was at the Le Havre match as well.. and also the Chile match in Paris. In Paris - I waited an hour for merch, only to find that almost all of it was sold out. There were TWO people working the merchandise booth at a World Cup game (Le Havre was the same). It was awful. They also ran out of bottled water (?!) and most of the food near our seats.
In Le Havre - we went to Stade Oceane when the gates opened - SPECIFICALLY to be able to actually get merchandise.
Essentially, the merchandising at a show for a small touring band playing the Masquerade is likely better than the freaking women's world cup. Totally inexcusable. The FIFA stuff in Le Havre was much better.. the whole city was covered in signs about the games, big displays when you got off the train, etc. The fan experience down by the beach was fun. In Paris, the only thing we saw was a sign in the metro that said 'take the 9 to get to Parc des Princes'. Nike has said that the USWNT shirts are selling like crazy.. and they never even released the away jersey (the cool red one) in men's sizes. Only the home white. $50 says they'd have sold even more if those were available. FIFA seems to really not give a crap about the women's game. Even the US needs to do better. The Netherlands brought the king, we sent the deputy secretary of commerce (who?). Way to represent. |
|
|
|
Post by Keeper on Jul 9, 2019 13:10:26 GMT -5
As usual no one knows what the real numbers are of how much each event takes in but that shouldn’t matter. USSoccer should split everything between both men’s and women’s programs 50/50. This is a national organization that represents everyone equally. Are if anything since there are more females then men in the US, the women should get more. FIFA should be doing the same thing, it’s not like they aren’t swimming in all that bribery money. Plus just imagine how much more the Men’s team would actually play knowing the handouts they get from just making the NT are gone, and you gotta win to get paid.
The fact that someone decides to split things differently based off of sex just shows that sexism is still very strong. It’s this type of inequality in soccer that runs all the way down to the youth game. I mean just look at how dysfunctional US Youth Soccer and US Club and the all the “elite” alphabet soup leagues.
The only way equality happens is when you stop treating others differently. That also means no more “SheBelieve’s Cup” as it should be WE believe. Stop making special programs to showcase that females are different to try and make them equal. Just give them the same equal chances of screwing things up as males do.
Last thing, the biggest legal issue they have is that this group all agreed to the pay terms. They had the right to refuse them during the negotiations a few years back after the last WC but US Soccer kept the gun to their head and said enjoy this 2% raise and shut up. The fact that Rapinoe, Solo, and Company were all such great Americans who wanted to represent their country they decided to take less in hopes that intelligent people would eventually win out.
|
|
|
|
Post by Keeper on Jul 9, 2019 13:37:16 GMT -5
Nike has said that the USWNT shirts are selling like crazy.. and they never even released the away jersey (the cool red one) in men's sizes. Only the home white. $50 says they'd have sold even more if those were available. Wait a sec, you think those horrible, wouldn’t want to even use it as a rag red jerseys are cool? No no no. Red kits, especially with red shorts = hideous. You’re like the first person I’ve heard that has actually liked them too. Nike needs to stick White and Blue kits. Going red is like when they made that Demin jersey in the 90s. |
|
|
|
Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 9, 2019 13:45:33 GMT -5
"The fact that someone decides to split things differently based off of sex just shows that sexism is still very strong."
Its a very complicated issue. Originally it may have been based on sex purely because of the perceived interest with some idea on revenue. I would guess that these days the pay is a lot more based on cash in from the men's team vs cash in from the women's team.
Unless the men's team votes to give some of their money to the women's team for equal pay like Norway did...
|
|
|
|
Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 9, 2019 13:50:40 GMT -5
Yeah, WTF happened to the awesome blue/1st kit??? They only wore them for a year. I thought the USNT's were on 2-year uniform cycles and the red was the 3rd kit. I also dislike the all-red kit.
|
|
|
|
Post by mistergrinch on Jul 9, 2019 14:45:36 GMT -5
Nike has said that the USWNT shirts are selling like crazy.. and they never even released the away jersey (the cool red one) in men's sizes. Only the home white. $50 says they'd have sold even more if those were available. Wait a sec, you think those horrible, wouldn’t want to even use it as a rag red jerseys are cool? No no no. Red kits, especially with red shorts = hideous. You’re like the first person I’ve heard that has actually liked them too. Nike needs to stick White and Blue kits. Going red is like when they made that Demin jersey in the 90s. At the games, those red shirts way outnumbered the white ones this year. |
|
|
|
Post by randomparent on Jul 9, 2019 15:06:48 GMT -5
I would like for boys to have the same opportunities as girls for college soccer scholarships.
OH WAIT. Wrong thread. =D
Just a joke.
Back to the thread. Since 2016 women should have been paid more than men based on revenue, they cut a bad deal. Need to decouple tv/advertising deals from the men's team to get a clearer picture. Women get a guaranteed base, men do not would need to clear that up. If men generate more money then they get paid more. The popularity of men vs. women's world cup throws a wrench but our women rock and wins the WC (go 4 million dollars) and our men don't qualify so that evens out.
HERE IS THE REAL RECOMMENDATION;
We need a new league. It works well for youth soccer. Someone should recommend that we have two governing soccer bodies, one for men and one for women. I wonder if the new league would go to the youth level. We could come up with new letter names and argue whether the new EWSC (elite women's soccer clubs made up acronym) is the same as the old ECNL. All the clubs could split in two across the nation and we could have two directors of coaching where we use to have one so it's like a jobs program for soccer coaches.
=)
|
|
|
|
Post by oraclesfriend on Jul 9, 2019 15:09:44 GMT -5
Nike has said that the USWNT shirts are selling like crazy.. and they never even released the away jersey (the cool red one) in men's sizes. Only the home white. $50 says they'd have sold even more if those were available. Wait a sec, you think those horrible, wouldn’t want to even use it as a rag red jerseys are cool? No no no. Red kits, especially with red shorts = hideous. You’re like the first person I’ve heard that has actually liked them too. Nike needs to stick White and Blue kits. Going red is like when they made that Demin jersey in the 90s. I love the red jerseys! They are awesome! The white jerseys aren't bad either, but only because they put the states on the back in grey letters. Otherwise I find the white jerseys that we have had in years past way too boring (except the white ones from last year with the stripes that were like the navy blue ones.) The red jerseys were all over the place at the World Cup and I see a lot on people walking around with them on too. |
|
|
|
Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 9, 2019 15:18:42 GMT -5
The men still use those nice white jerseys with the stripes on the front. Only the women wore the boring throwback ones for the WWC. I like the idea of the men and women wearing different kits. Would help figure out the revenue split also.  |
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Jul 10, 2019 12:37:02 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by mistergrinch on Jul 11, 2019 11:02:25 GMT -5
We didn't personally run into some of the issues (transportation).. but it definitely wasn't well planned.
In Le Havre, they had shuttles running from the main train station out to the stadium. We had NO IDEA about these before we showed up and had a helpful hotel employee tell us. Not publicized at all. The return shuttles were a mess.. I think we had to wait about 45 minutes to get on one, not the worst but not the best.
As for the other issues - publicity, food, merchandise.. terrible. The fact that you couldn't even GET merchandise except around the stadium on game day is ridiculous. How can you not have a pop-up shop selling merchandise during the entire tournament? They didn't even have merchandise out at the FIFA Fan Experience locations... huh?
|
|
|
|
Post by atv on Jul 29, 2019 17:10:52 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by rifle on Jul 29, 2019 17:23:18 GMT -5
Interesting letter from the banker.
|
|
|
|
Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 29, 2019 23:50:12 GMT -5
If the facts in this letter are true, will the WNT claim fake news?
|
|
|
|
Post by atv on Jul 30, 2019 6:44:33 GMT -5
Yeah, I don’t get it. IMO, there is no basis for “pay discrimination” here.
USSF comes out of this one looking pretty sound. I think the women’s team pursued the wrong course. It looks like a fair deal was struck in the past and I don’t think this gives them any additional leverage going into future mediation.
|
|
|
|
Post by fridge on Jul 30, 2019 8:51:23 GMT -5
Looks like the USWNT pivoted that paying them to play in the NWSL is not apples/apples comparison to the men. That makes no sense and it was what the USWNT negotiated for. The federation should stop supplementing NWSL and put that money back into pay for USWNT games. Again, I hope the paying public supports the woman and they make boatloads of money in the free market. But, at the root of all of this is simple irrational entitlement arguments. It is crazy that the federation sat on its hands and let the woman create the false narrative for so long.
|
|
|
|
Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 30, 2019 10:02:24 GMT -5
Perhaps, since they're looking for "fairness" and "equitable pay", Alex Morgan should donate most of her sponsorship monies to the rest of the USWNT to bring up thr average pay per player? Actually, she could have started doing that 4 years ago. I know she's in the million dollars a year range (if not higher).
But (IMO) it rings of the typical socialist argument for equality..."take money from those people over there to make things equal (but not from me)."
I agree on the irrational entitlement theory (based on their winnings). I think the crux of their argument is "look how successful we are compared to the men... we should get paid MORE than them." Great for them winning their 4 WWC, but let's be honest, it is MUCH harder to win the MWC (and comparing the success of the women to lack of success for the men is apples to oranges).
I think that if the USWNT want to get paid equivalent to what the men would get paid in their situation, they're going to have to show they can compete with them on the field. Schedule some friendlies against small nations men's teams, see how you do.
|
|
|
|
Post by atv on Jul 30, 2019 10:15:13 GMT -5
Taking nothing from the ladies. (I love the USWNT). However, no comparison. Men would dominate. Let’s remember, FC Dallas U15 boys team beat them a few years ago ... just for perspective (https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/)
|
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Jul 30, 2019 10:18:35 GMT -5
US Men have issued a response -- haven't look for the actual link to the full response yet:
|
|
|
|
Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 30, 2019 11:21:18 GMT -5
It sounds like the USWNT and USMNT need to unify into a single entity and renegotiate a CBA. Then the money goes into a pool to pay them equally out of said pool. Otherwise you still have 2 entities negotiating different contracts with USSF. This would make it an apples-to-apples discussion, they all make the same. FIFA money, gate money, TV money, etc all goes into one pool to pay ANY/ALL players the same amount per game/per training camp/healthcare/benefits/etc.
Such an agreement should not have anything about MLS or NWSL included.
|
|
|
|
Post by krazykickers on Jul 30, 2019 12:29:04 GMT -5
So both the men's and women's programs are losing $$$$$  The women's games generated a net loss of $27.5 million from 09-19' with the men losing about $3.2 million for the same time frame |
|
|
|
Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 30, 2019 16:46:13 GMT -5
I don't buy it. Something is fishy. USSF will need to release the TV/sponsorship numbers. They're fighting in the court of public opinion and it looks like they're bluffing. The men apparently side with them, so perhaps its time to come to a Norway-like solution.
|
|
|
|
Post by mistergrinch on Jul 30, 2019 17:55:28 GMT -5
The USMNT put out a statement in support of the women.. saying that the numbers were BS.
|
|
|
|
Post by rifle on Jul 30, 2019 20:47:26 GMT -5
I don't buy it. Something is fishy. USSF will need to release the TV/sponsorship numbers. They're fighting in the court of public opinion and it looks like they're bluffing. The men apparently side with them, so perhaps its time to come to a Norway-like solution. Will never happen. MLS owners, aka Soccer United Marketing own the federation. They keep getting no bid contracts to “market” in exchange for control and suppression of everyone else. Corrupt to the core. |
|
|
|
Post by atv on Jul 31, 2019 22:11:25 GMT -5
I wonder if the US National Team members on the Athletes Council would vote differently today. It’s kind of funny, at least to me, remember their vote (weighted vote election process) basically elected Carlos Cordiero President of US Soccer.
Athletic Council current members
Chris Ahrens (Chair)
Yael Averbuch
Carlos Bocanegra (Vice-Chair)
Brian Ching
Landon Donovan
Brad Guzan
Kevin Hensley
Stuart Holden
Meghan Klingenberg
Ali Krieger
Lori Lindsay
Alex Morgan
John O'Brien (USOC, Alternate)
Heather O'Reilly
Nick Perera
Becky Sauerbrunn
Gavin Sibayan,
Jonathan Spector
Lindsay Tarpley
Aly Wagner (USOC)
|
|
|
|
Post by soccerfan30 on Aug 1, 2019 9:35:34 GMT -5
I wonder if the US National Team members on the Athletes Council would vote differently today. It’s kind of funny, at least to me, remember their vote (weighted vote election process) basically elected Carlos Cordiero President of US Soccer. Athletic Council current members Chris Ahrens (Chair) Yael Averbuch Carlos Bocanegra (Vice-Chair) Brian Ching Landon Donovan Brad Guzan Kevin Hensley Stuart Holden Meghan Klingenberg Ali Krieger Lori Lindsay Alex Morgan John O'Brien (USOC, Alternate) Heather O'Reilly Nick Perera Becky Sauerbrunn Gavin Sibayan, Jonathan Spector Lindsay Tarpley Aly Wagner (USOC) If they were unhappy with Gulati then why vote unanimously for his right hand man and expect something different than the status quo? |
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 13, 2019 12:23:48 GMT -5
Maybe some miss quotes in there, but probably would have been better to refrain from comment...
|
|
The women's games generated a net loss of $27.5 million from 09-19' with the men losing about $3.2 million for the same time frame
