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Post by hokesmyth on Jul 12, 2019 13:21:08 GMT -5
Participation figures reported by the National Federation of State High School Associations show that for the 2017-18 school year, the most recent year for which participation data is available, about 20,000 fewer students participated in 11-man football than the previous year nationwide.
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Post by crossbar on Jul 12, 2019 14:40:02 GMT -5
Participation figures reported by the National Federation of State High School Associations show that for the 2017-18 school year, the most recent year for which participation data is available, about 20,000 fewer students participated in 11-man football than the previous year nationwide. Interesting. What's that as a percentage decline? In other words, there was a decline of 20k from what value the previous year? |
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Post by crossbar on Jul 12, 2019 14:42:50 GMT -5
Found some data from NFHS on my own. Looks like high school football has a bit more than a million participants annually, so this is around a 2% decline, maybe a little less. But it's against a backdrop of increased participation in high school sports overall.
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Post by soccerlegacy on Jul 12, 2019 23:19:09 GMT -5
Yep. It's becoming viewed as a "gladiator" sport, much like boxing. The lower class, poor and urban kids are playing it more while the middle to upper class are playing much less. It is seen as a way out of their current environment.
Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel did a segment on it. Very interesting piece.
Based on that trend, I don't think the viewership will suffer so much, but the youth participation probably will. People still like fights, whether it is boxing or MMA... and now Football will be the same.
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Post by GameOfThrow-ins on Jul 13, 2019 10:36:03 GMT -5
I also think both parents and kids see some professional NFL players not even playing the sport until final year of high school, in college, or not at all and being converted from basketball or track to TE or receiver, etc. There are many spots on an NFL roster that are not 10,000 hour positions. Why increase the risk of CTE?
A higher caliber of male athlete is starting to stay with soccer longer in the U.S. but unfortunately the sport is still run by foreign flunkies and aging non-athletes who played the sport in this country. The rest of the world selects and develops their soccer players from a pool of their best athletes, We do not have that luxury but we continue to be delusional about that fact. But it’s worse than just that - the incompetent leadership doesn’t understand how to handle and develop serious athleticism if they have it, much less understand that the biggest challenge they have is to attract and retain this talent in a very competitive sport choice environment.
It will take another generation before today’s soccer athletes that are somehow making it through a system that doesn’t respect them gain control of the sport that you will see real results internationally.
Additionally, not only does MLS $ have to go up, but common sense has got to applied to Title IX. College football cannot continue to be allowed to drain scholarships from every other men’s sport.
Finally, and most confounding, soccer leaders have created a talent bottle neck at U15 - right at the start of high school! Example: An incredible athlete that happens to be an incredible soccer player has 3 top teams in this state as possibilities - and 1 he can’t even tryout for. And this is a sport that has nothing in the way of metrics or stats, relying only on the eyeballs of a few highly fallible humans. Here’s the exact moment when your best athletes say, “screw this.” They cannot waste time in a second tier league when they are also top prospects in other sports.
(This is all about the boys/men’s side. Women’s soccer may as well be another sport entirely.)
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Post by mistergrinch on Jul 13, 2019 10:58:32 GMT -5
I also think both parents and kids see some professional NFL players not even playing the sport until final year of high school, in college, or not at all and being converted from basketball or track to TE or receiver, etc. There are many spots on an NFL roster that are not 10,000 hour positions. Why increase the risk of CTE? A higher caliber of male athlete is starting to stay with soccer longer in the U.S. but unfortunately the sport is still run by foreign flunkies and aging non-athletes who played the sport in this country. The rest of the world selects and develops their soccer players from a pool of their best athletes, We do not have that luxury but we continue to be delusional about that fact. But it’s worse than just that - the incompetent leadership doesn’t understand how to handle and develop serious athleticism if they have it, much less understand that the biggest challenge they have is to attract and retain this talent in a very competitive sport choice environment. It will take another generation before today’s soccer athletes that are somehow making it through a system that doesn’t respect them gain control of the sport that you will see real results internationally. Additionally, not only does MLS $ have to go up, but common sense has got to applied to Title IX. College football cannot continue to be allowed to drain scholarships from every other men’s sport. Finally, and most confounding, soccer leaders have created a talent bottle neck at U15 - right at the start of high school! Example: An incredible athlete that happens to be an incredible soccer player has 3 top teams in this state as possibilities - and 1 he can’t even tryout for. And this is a sport that has nothing in the way of metrics or stats, relying only on the eyeballs of a few highly fallible humans. Here’s the exact moment when your best athletes say, “screw this.” They cannot waste time in a second tier league when they are also top prospects in other sports. (This is all about the boys/men’s side. Women’s soccer may as well be another sport entirely.) It's all about money. When there's a path to riches via soccer without having to leave the US at 18 - kids will stick with it. |
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Post by soccerlegacy on Jul 15, 2019 11:45:07 GMT -5
I also think both parents and kids see some professional NFL players not even playing the sport until final year of high school, in college, or not at all and being converted from basketball or track to TE or receiver, etc. There are many spots on an NFL roster that are not 10,000 hour positions. Why increase the risk of CTE? A higher caliber of male athlete is starting to stay with soccer longer in the U.S. but unfortunately the sport is still run by foreign flunkies and aging non-athletes who played the sport in this country. The rest of the world selects and develops their soccer players from a pool of their best athletes, We do not have that luxury but we continue to be delusional about that fact. But it’s worse than just that - the incompetent leadership doesn’t understand how to handle and develop serious athleticism if they have it, much less understand that the biggest challenge they have is to attract and retain this talent in a very competitive sport choice environment. It will take another generation before today’s soccer athletes that are somehow making it through a system that doesn’t respect them gain control of the sport that you will see real results internationally. Additionally, not only does MLS $ have to go up, but common sense has got to applied to Title IX. College football cannot continue to be allowed to drain scholarships from every other men’s sport. Finally, and most confounding, soccer leaders have created a talent bottle neck at U15 - right at the start of high school! Example: An incredible athlete that happens to be an incredible soccer player has 3 top teams in this state as possibilities - and 1 he can’t even tryout for. And this is a sport that has nothing in the way of metrics or stats, relying only on the eyeballs of a few highly fallible humans. Here’s the exact moment when your best athletes say, “screw this.” They cannot waste time in a second tier league when they are also top prospects in other sports. (This is all about the boys/men’s side. Women’s soccer may as well be another sport entirely.) while I respect your opinion, I disagree that we dont have top athletes playing soccer. With a population the size of the USA, we have plenty of athletes to fill out a top flite team. Look at countries no larger than some of our smallest states in comparison. They dont have a talent pool like we have. So it's not athletes that are the problem. Second, football actually pays for a lot of the other sports, men's or women's. Sure the take a bunch of the scholarships but they also allow the funding for most scholarships to begin with. Seems fair to me. I do agree with the options a multi-sport athlete has, he might be less willing to choose soccer over a more valued one such football, basketball, or baseball. I dont have a solution, but one that might work would be to have MLS pay clubs that develop the talent. Then those clubs will have the means and the incentive to train the best players the can find... Much like other countries do. |
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Post by soccerguru on Jul 15, 2019 11:57:22 GMT -5
The very best athletes in the USA definitely do not play soccer. This is caused by many reasons but the biggest one is parents and kids ask, "what sport do I have best chance of being a pro and making a ton of money". I'm sorry to say that soccer does not offer kids that opportunity.
Just look at the graduating HS Seniors around ATL that have recently signed MLB contract with the lowest being 1.6mil and the highest being 5.7 mil. What was the highest Homegrown contract signed by AU. Exactly, if those kids don't make it, what are they going to do without a good education? If CJ doesn't make it, he already has close to 6mil earned, that's a nice chunk of change to start a life : )
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Post by Soccerhouse on Jul 15, 2019 11:58:53 GMT -5
Bottom line -- a city like Atlanta needs at least 2 clubs like atlanta united. Not sure if we will ever get there for soccer.
This country is way to big to only have MLS fully funded academies. You need competition and the local teams need competition.
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Post by soccerlegacy on Jul 15, 2019 20:00:40 GMT -5
The very best athletes in the USA definitely do not play soccer. This is caused by many reasons but the biggest one is parents and kids ask, "what sport do I have best chance of being a pro and making a ton of money". I'm sorry to say that soccer does not offer kids that opportunity. Just look at the graduating HS Seniors around ATL that have recently signed MLB contract with the lowest being 1.6mil and the highest being 5.7 mil. What was the highest Homegrown contract signed by AU. Exactly, if those kids don't make it, what are they going to do without a good education? If CJ doesn't make it, he already has close to 6mil earned, that's a nice chunk of change to start a life : ) I get what you're saying... don't think baseball players equate to best athlete... but I get the point. One comparison to baseball would be that MLS needs a farm system like baseball has... |
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Post by rifle on Jul 16, 2019 5:49:41 GMT -5
The very best athletes in the USA definitely do not play soccer. This is caused by many reasons but the biggest one is parents and kids ask, "what sport do I have best chance of being a pro and making a ton of money". I'm sorry to say that soccer does not offer kids that opportunity. Just look at the graduating HS Seniors around ATL that have recently signed MLB contract with the lowest being 1.6mil and the highest being 5.7 mil. What was the highest Homegrown contract signed by AU. Exactly, if those kids don't make it, what are they going to do without a good education? If CJ doesn't make it, he already has close to 6mil earned, that's a nice chunk of change to start a life : ) I don’t know.... maybe go to college? |
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Post by toonarmy on Jul 16, 2019 12:37:02 GMT -5
Why all this focus on the need for the "best" athletes.... best soccer players are not necessarily the best athletes and vice versa. Go look at the Fifa Rankings. The top 10 includes Belgium (#1, pop 12M), Croatia (#5, pop 4M), Uruguay (#8, pop 3.5M), Switzerland (#9, pop 8M) and Denmark (#10, pop 5.7M).
Sure there are other sports here in the US that take focus, but with a pool of > 320M there's plenty of decent athletes to go around.
Great when the 2 things come together, but that's the exception (Ronaldo) rather than the rule....
Lack of ingrained soccer culture and the challenge of identifying those talented soccer players across the vast pool here in the US are the true challenges...
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Post by Soccerhouse on Jul 16, 2019 13:11:40 GMT -5
either way, best athletes or not, increasing the player pool never hurts. and increasing the player pool with players with natural born athleticism never hurts either. and there is nothing negative about taking a young potential future all world athlete and starting them in soccer at age 3-5, maybe they become a superstar player with a high soccer IQ, incredible first touch, crazy speed and the competitive drive it takes to be all world.
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Post by rifle on Jul 17, 2019 6:05:31 GMT -5
Why all this focus on the need for the "best" athletes.... best soccer players are not necessarily the best athletes and vice versa. Go look at the Fifa Rankings. The top 10 includes Belgium (#1, pop 12M), Croatia (#5, pop 4M), Uruguay (#8, pop 3.5M), Switzerland (#9, pop 8M) and Denmark (#10, pop 5.7M). Sure there are other sports here in the US that take focus, but with a pool of > 320M there's plenty of decent athletes to go around. Great when the 2 things come together, but that's the exception (Ronaldo) rather than the rule....
Lack of ingrained soccer culture and the challenge of identifying those talented soccer players across the vast pool here in the US are the true challenges... nailed it. Those are called Messi, Ronaldo. The best of the best. Yet somehow guys like Pirlo managed to be world class as well. The sooner we accept that soccer is about a LOT more than athleticism, we’ll be better off. |
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Post by justwatching on Jul 17, 2019 8:56:02 GMT -5
A lot if not most sports are about a lot more than athleticism if you are talking about playing at a really high level. Athleticism alone certainly doesn't make a player great at any sport but if a player has incredible athleticism and you pair that with that sport's specific skill you have the potential of something special. I think we would be naive to think if you had all the best athletes play any sport from a young age and really train/play to develop refined skill in it that those players wouldn't be the best there is in that sport.
Do you have to have the best athlete to be successful in soccer in the US?...No you don't, but if you did your likelihood of success skyrockets in my opinion.
Also, being that there is not the same kind of youth sports variety to chose from in other countries, I would argue that most if not all these countries' best athletes play soccer. Yes, the US has a much larger overall population and hence pool of players to pull from but if from an athleticism perspective soccer is deemed as the 4th choice in the hierarchy of sports for the vast population behind football, basketball, and baseball do our "4th tier" athletes have the potential to compete with other countries' "1st tier" athletes? Don't get me wrong I do think there are many young athletes who are choosing soccer in the US that are phenomenal athletes (and that number is increasing in recent years) and could succeed in other sports but those numbers are not super high yet.
Also, for clarity, I think this applies to boys/men soccer in the US only. I think you are more likely to have more of the best female athletes choose soccer 1st over other sports than the boys side.
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Post by mistergrinch on Jul 17, 2019 10:15:22 GMT -5
A lot if not most sports are about a lot more than athleticism if you are talking about playing at a really high level. Athleticism alone certainly doesn't make a player great at any sport but if a player has incredible athleticism and you pair that with that sport's specific skill you have the potential of something special. I think we would be naive to think if you had all the best athletes play any sport from a young age and really train/play to develop refined skill in it that those players wouldn't be the best there is in that sport. Do you have to have the best athlete to be successful in soccer in the US?...No you don't, but if you did your likelihood of success skyrockets in my opinion. Also, being that there is not the same kind of youth sports variety to chose from in other countries, I would argue that most if not all these countries' best athletes play soccer. Yes, the US has a much larger overall population and hence pool of players to pull from but if from an athleticism perspective soccer is deemed as the 4th choice in the hierarchy of sports for the vast population behind football, basketball, and baseball do our "4th tier" athletes have the potential to compete with other countries' "1st tier" athletes? Don't get me wrong I do think there are many young athletes who are choosing soccer in the US that are phenomenal athletes (and that number is increasing in recent years) and could succeed in other sports but those numbers are not super high yet. Also, for clarity, I think this applies to boys/men soccer in the US only. I think you are more likely to have more of the best female athletes choose soccer 1st over other sports than the boys side. Soccer may be below hockey and lacrosse in big chunks of the country as well.
Some things that occurred to me while talking to parents from around the country at various camps.
1. The current landscape preaches development but rewards and punishes winning/losing. These two things really can't coexist. Clubs build by attracting the best players, they do so by winning. They win by attracting the best players - NOT developing them. It's circular. The top clubs are collectors, rarely developers, of talent. If winning is what's rewarded, then those players who haven't hit 'star' level yet don't get the development.
2. Something I hear consistently is that the politics at these big clubs seems to cause us to likely miss out on a LOT of potential talent. I can't say how it is in the rest of the world, but I hear the same refrain from parents everywhere.. people whose kids were overlooked, and people whose kids got the benefits over someone who turned out to be better. How many of those overlooked 'diamonds in the rough' gave up and quit? This doesn't even address the kids who get bumped for the aforementioned 'collected' players.
3. Geography. Something we deal with far more here than in the countries mentioned above. Belgium is 11k square miles. Georgia is almost 60k. California is 163k. I have spoken to a TON of people who have to travel several hours each way to get to a competitive club. Now, if they get stuck in the politics - where do they go? Options here are geographically limited for HUGE chunks of the country, even the heavily populated states. I spoke to one family who lives in Hawaii.. but they switch off in 6-week chunks living in an apartment in LA so their daughter can play soccer.. because there were no clubs where they lived. That is nuts.
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