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Post by Soccerhouse on May 28, 2014 8:41:02 GMT -5
So, I know we have had discussion on this in the past. i'm a fan of small sided soccer, actually loved it when my little ones played 3v3 with live balls, no throw ins, goal kicks etc.
but i've found once you play 8v8, you can't go back to 6v6. same is true for 11v11.
what is your clubs standard, and is it standardized enough now across the clubs in georgia for top teams.
i think this year, we will see top u10s playing 8v8 in the fall vs the spring. What i like about transition to 8v8 in the spring of u10, is it allows clubs to keep a smaller roster and utilize players from 2nd teams and possible playups to field 8v8 teams and better prepare kids for the u11 season.
u9 Fall/Spring - 6v6
u10 Fall - 6v6
u10 Spring - 8v8
u11 Fall/Spring - 8v8
u12 Fall/Spring - 11v11
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Post by zizou on May 28, 2014 9:17:15 GMT -5
The hard part about the transition is that kids and parents (the latter probably care more) is that teams successful in smaller sided competition might have a big drop-off when more players are on field. We have all seen this. A team has 5 good players so they are dominant in 6v6. A team has one or two big athletic players that can physically dominate other teams in a more compact space. Require those teams to add more players (2 when going to 8v8; 3 when transitioning to 11v11 from 8v8) and/or put them on a bigger pitch, and everything can change. This is sometimes where smaller clubs really take a hit. This is also where the more forward thinking clubs and trainers earn their stripes. It is not about the 6v6 or even 8v8 game. It is about preparing players for what comes down the road.
That being said, I do like the mid-season transition. I think most clubs do this. Club where younger one plays does this. I do not see the rush to get kids playing full sided. But I see the need for a transition. Players and parents need to be properly prepared for how tough the transition might be. I think the mid season transition also provides a glimpse at opportunities. It becomes pretty obvious that most teams have limitations that need to be addressed. That might help players decide where they want to go at tryouts. A nontrivial consideration. It also might help players understand that there might be a limited future on current team.
The few top U12 teams will start playing full sided in the Fall. They did this past year. Then they are stuck playing the same competition all year, except for tournaments. I suppose part of the reason clubs do this is to justify bigger rosters so they can lock in more players. I do not see this as best for development of individual players, but I guess there can be reasonable arguments about this.
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Post by spectator on May 28, 2014 9:17:27 GMT -5
Here's how it was when my player (rising U15) was in Academy U9-U10 - 6v6 U11 - 8v8 U12 - 8v8 Fall - 11v11 Spring for Academy Cup I, too am a big fan of the small sided games - the skills used there make for a better overall player and transfer easily to the big field. I am NOT - repeat NOT - in agreement that U12's need to jump into 11v11 but every club in GA does that now so it's a done deal. I don't think most 11 year olds have the skills or maturity to play the big field -and by that I mean the strength to pass to change direction of the game or the ability to not make 'self centered' decisions (ball hogging, not spacing out effectively, etc.) An 11 year old is still learning those small sided skills and most are not ready for the full field. But -soccer has become such a business of which club or which team can field the most elite level players at U13 that sometimes we get away from teaching the game and working those skills. Just my two cents as a soccer parent - when and if I'm ever elected queen of GA Soccer, I'll change those rules!  |
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Post by dreaddy on May 28, 2014 9:25:05 GMT -5
I agree fully with you, spectator! It annoys me to see the clubs jumping to 11v11 from the fall of U12. Their main reason? To get a jump on the competition so they can get better placement at U13. It has nothing to do with development. It's all about the win and that classic 1/Athena A slot and the recruiting advantage that goes with it.
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Post by rifle on May 28, 2014 18:41:51 GMT -5
I agree fully with you, spectator! It annoys me to see the clubs jumping to 11v11 from the fall of U12. Their main reason? To get a jump on the competition so they can get better placement at U13. It has nothing to do with development. It's all about the win and that classic 1/Athena A slot and the recruiting advantage that goes with it. This is 100% the reason for 11v11 before U13. What frustrates me is when GA Soccer tells everyone to play 8v8 thru U12, then they allow 11v11 for U12 in academy cup. Total hypocrisy. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 10:45:48 GMT -5
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Post by SoccerMom on Nov 17, 2014 8:13:29 GMT -5
Isnt that the same team that was already playing C2 in the fall? |
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Post by jash on Nov 17, 2014 9:01:40 GMT -5
It's up to the parents to restore sanity, because surely the clubs have no incentive to do so.
11v11 is not synonymous with elite
It's just another selling point. Make them stop.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 17, 2014 10:50:40 GMT -5
i've heard the argument that its about we need "better" competition. don't buy it for a second, their are many other quality u11 teams in this city.
its all about meaningful touches in games not being the greatest u11 team on the planet.
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Post by allthingsoccer on Nov 20, 2014 9:01:44 GMT -5
Not sure why the whole 11v11 vs 8v8 is getting to everyone. If a team is ready to start transitioning to 11v11 then why stop them? If you have players that are more suited for 11v11 style then what's the big deal?? What's the difference in "touches" from 8v8 vs 11v11? Most kids guest play with other club teams as well to get touches in. Also some play indoor to get touches. If your player is serious then he/she will do the extra touches it takes. I know the CF team is doing 11v11 for the Norcross tournament as a measure. They did one at the beginning of the year and doing one at the end of Fall to see how they have improved and what to work on during off season. This is the same as 6v6 to 8v8 transition. Most teams at U12 are moving to 11v11 so the CF U11's play a mixed schedule of U11 and U12. In order to play good quality U12 teams then you have to play 11v11 as most of the good U12 teams play 11v11. So that's why the U11 CF team is salt and peppering the 11v11 and 8v8. They also have the depth to do so. Heard a rumor that they might mix the up and coming central team with north to create a super team. The central team in no joke. They have beaten all the top teams in age group. (not the North  By end of Spring (only 5/6 months away) the boys will make the transition from 8v8 to 11v11. Go soccer!! |
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Post by sidelinemama on Nov 20, 2014 9:56:24 GMT -5
The difference in touches is that there is more pressure on you and you have less time when playing 8v8. Kids that move too soon to 11v11 don't have to play as fast or deal with immediate pressure with the ball when they get it bc the field is bigger. You make the argument yourself that you are doing it to get games with the better clubs and to be ready. At some point this trend creates way too many kids transitioning before they are ready and before they are proficient at working in tight spaces with the ball.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 20, 2014 10:12:02 GMT -5
Not sure why the whole 11v11 vs 8v8 is getting to everyone. If a team is ready to start transitioning to 11v11 then why stop them? If you have players that are more suited for 11v11 style then what's the big deal?? What's the difference in "touches" from 8v8 vs 11v11? Most kids guest play with other club teams as well to get touches in. Also some play indoor to get touches. If your player is serious then he/she will do the extra touches it takes. I know the CF team is doing 11v11 for the Norcross tournament as a measure. They did one at the beginning of the year and doing one at the end of Fall to see how they have improved and what to work on during off season. This is the same as 6v6 to 8v8 transition. Most teams at U12 are moving to 11v11 so the CF U11's play a mixed schedule of U11 and U12. In order to play good quality U12 teams then you have to play 11v11 as most of the good U12 teams play 11v11. So that's why the U11 CF team is salt and peppering the 11v11 and 8v8. They also have the depth to do so. Heard a rumor that they might mix the up and coming central team with north to create a super team. The central team in no joke. They have beaten all the top teams in age group. (not the North By end of Spring (only 5/6 months away) the boys will make the transition from 8v8 to 11v11. Go soccer!! good info!! there is a big difference in the number of touches for a kid in 8v8 vs 11v11. kids can disappear at 11v11, that doesn't really happen at 8v8. makes sense when preparing for DA to get the kids together. typically the combining doesn't occur until u13. it creates unhappy people and a long commute to pratices for some! concorde north is overall the better location, the majority of the talent is north. rumors of possible DA at u12, not sure if would be implemented that soon. so are yall adding kids from your 2nd team when you play 11v11 or borrowing play ups from the older team? |
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Post by jash on Nov 20, 2014 10:23:08 GMT -5
Not sure why the whole 11v11 vs 8v8 is getting to everyone. [snip] Most teams at U12 are moving to 11v11 so the CF U11's play a mixed schedule of U11 and U12. In order to play good quality U12 teams then you have to play 11v11 as most of the good U12 teams play 11v11. So that's why the U11 CF team is salt and peppering the 11v11 and 8v8. They also have the depth to do so. sidelinemama said it too... you make the problem quite clear right here in your post. The standard for Georgia Soccer, outlined here (among other places, this is just one of the first ones I found): www.georgiasoccer.org/assets/970/15/Player_Development_Model.pdfis 6v6 for U9/U10, 8v8 for U11/U12, and 11v11 starting at U13. But because 'everybody else is doing it' you have to move to 11v11 in the Spring of U12. No wait, Fall of U12. No wait, Spring of U11. No wait, Fall of U11. You can see where this is headed. And where does it stop? Why don't we have our 5-year-olds playing 11v11? "Ridiculous," you say, but we're headed there. What is the barrier that will stop it? Where will they draw the line? If U11s start playing 11v11 in the Fall (and they are), some bright person will decide they need the U10's to play 11v11 in the Spring to get a head start on the competition. It's an arms race that nobody can win. |
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Post by sidelinemama on Nov 20, 2014 11:07:20 GMT -5
Duplicate post. The site went down when I entered the last post. Carry on;)
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Post by zizou on Nov 20, 2014 11:10:30 GMT -5
The difference in touches is that there is more pressure on you and you have less time when playing 8v8. Kids that move too soon to 11v11 don't have to play as fast or deal with immediate pressure with the ball when they get it bc the field is bigger. You make the argument yourself that you are doing it to get games with the better clubs and to be ready. At some point this trend creates way too many kids transitioning before they are ready and before they are proficient at working in tight spaces with the ball. The problem with this argument is that the fields on which they put these kids to play 11v11 are really not bigger given the number of extra players on them. Go and measure the field dimension for the 8v8 and 11v11 fields at you club. I am willing to bet more really good popcorn that the kids have fewer or essentially no difference in yards/sqft/player on those 11v11 fields. Not true at all clubs, but am willing to bet it is true at most clubs. Maybe they are even more cramped. What is unequivocally true, though, is that with fewer kids on pitch they are going to get more touches on average. But personally I see all of these arguments about touches and tight spaces as irrelevant. Touches come in training. Learning how to work in tight spaces comes in training. Games are not for maximizing touches. So they get 5 min total on ball in 8v8 versus 3 min on ball in 11v11. So what? For me the problem is mostly about cognitive capacity for playing a game with more options. I have presented this argument before in other posts so I won't reiterate. As Jash and others have so eloquently argued, we know the reasons for going full sided at younger ages have nothing to do with what is best for kids. There is no logical reason to go 11v11 at U12. But what is definitely logical and best for kids is to demand proper training regardless of number of players on field during matches. |
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Post by sidelinemama on Nov 20, 2014 11:16:28 GMT -5
I was not referring to the time and amount of touches that they get in a game. I was referring to the pressure on them immediately. I can only speak for our team, and I will say that the girls on our team that struggled more with the ball when they received it at 8v8, performed much better when we switched to 11v11 because they had more time to receive the ball, look around and make a decision. I don't think that benefited them, although it probably benefitted our team with less immediate turnovers;)
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Post by chelsea14 on Nov 20, 2014 12:43:25 GMT -5
My sons U12 team has been playing 11v11 all fall. I was initially happy about this, as I felt he would fall behind many of his peers who would be playing 11v11. I have mixed emotions about it now.
The team never trains/discusses the 11v11 game, everything is small sided games, and there is no training focusing on the 11v11 format. So in theory you could say they don't lose touches in training because it is still small sided....but there are 4 or 5 more kids out there now for training so they must be losing some touches at least. He is not really getting any guidance in playing the 11v11 game from his club other than from game time experience and what I teach him.
So I really wonder what is the point? The only reason I can see is money-to get more kids on a team.
His team is struggling, and many of the kids have very limited understanding of the game even after this entire season. I would discount to a large degree what the 11v11 playing experience is doing for him because of his teammates struggle to understand the game.
My son trains alot on his own, so touches are not an issue for him, but it is definitely doing the majority of the kids on the team a disservice to be playing 11v11 as many are not technically strong players, don't have the skills yet, don't train on their own to get more touches, and don't understand the game.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 21, 2014 10:08:14 GMT -5
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Post by jash on Nov 21, 2014 11:01:49 GMT -5
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Post by jash on Nov 21, 2014 11:05:28 GMT -5
According to that page, which lists a lot of reasons to play small-sided in line with the recommendations we should all know (U9/U10 6v6, U11/U12 8v8, U13 and up, 11v11), it says this:
'These are the reasons why we adults must foster "Small-Sided Games" in our youth soccer programs. The "Small-Sided" environment is a developmentally appropriate environment for our young soccer players. It's a FUN environment that focuses on the young soccer player.'
Opposing that are the local clubs and parents who want more players per coach (money), more success early to attract and keep talent, and that awesome feeling that your kid is a cut above everyone else and is elite enough to do it early.
If you dare, ask your DOC why they jump to 11v11 2-3 years before the US Youth Soccer recommendations and report back their reasons. I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
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Post by SoccerMom on Nov 21, 2014 11:38:23 GMT -5
I thought Soccerhouse and Jash were one and only? lol |
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Post by jash on Nov 21, 2014 15:09:12 GMT -5
I thought Soccerhouse and Jash were one and only? lol Definitely not... I don't even know Soccerhouse in real life, but I was one of the first to jump over here when this forum was created. |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 21, 2014 15:48:18 GMT -5
jash and i go way way back --- Sep 19, 2013 at 2:45pm i can understand the rush away from 6v6, but a big fan of 8v8 on a good size field. fun games to watch, excitement, kids are involved in all aspects and you can't really hide a kid. some of this could potentially be fixed, if we shifted to 7v7 and then 9v9. i think 9v9 would help. here is my solution to the problem. at u12, georgia soccer creates a standing/table structure for a, b, c and d teams. the catch is its only 8v8 (or in my mind 9v9). teams can no longer play up an age group at Classic X or athena Y. 75% of the team needs to be kids rostered in the agegroup vs playups. this would create other problems for sure - but it would help with development. no actually standings needs to be kept, or if others have suggestions........
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Post by sidelinemama on Nov 21, 2014 18:29:58 GMT -5
Yes, there is a company in Europe out of Sweden or the Netherlands that claims that so many female knee injuries in soccer are the result of the heavy ball used at an early age and that it is crazy that 13 yo girls use the same sized ball as grown men, lol. So they developed a ball that is lighter. I don't know if it's the same company you are talking about or not, but it makes sense. |
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Post by special1 on Nov 21, 2014 18:54:25 GMT -5
I thought Soccerhouse and Jash were one and only? lol I was thinking the same thing |
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Post by special1 on Nov 21, 2014 18:58:21 GMT -5
jash and i go way way back --- Sep 19, 2013 at 2:45pm i can understand the rush away from 6v6, but a big fan of 8v8 on a good size field. fun games to watch, excitement, kids are involved in all aspects and you can't really hide a kid. some of this could potentially be fixed, if we shifted to 7v7 and then 9v9. i think 9v9 would help. here is my solution to the problem. at u12, georgia soccer creates a standing/table structure for a, b, c and d teams. the catch is its only 8v8 (or in my mind 9v9). teams can no longer play up an age group at Classic X or athena Y. 75% of the team needs to be kids rostered in the agegroup vs playups. this would create other problems for sure - but it would help with development. no actually standings needs to be kept, or if others have suggestions........ I also like the 8 v 8, not a big fan of 6 v 6 or 11 v 11 for that age group. I like what you suggested. |
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