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Post by slickdaddy96 on Sept 9, 2019 13:30:27 GMT -5
Just curious on input from everyone on this subject:
1) Is there a place for a coach to teach flopping or going down easy around the goal area?
2) If the coach should not teach that, should the coach frown upon flopping?
I know for some that is "gamesmanship" and part of the beautiful game, but personally I think it gives the beautiful game a black eye and a bad name.
I know my kid's coach does not teach that, and none of our kids do that and there are genuine fouls our kids get committed against us but are never called because our kids tend to keep their balance and not go to ground. They played a team Sunday that any even remote contact around the box or in it their players would fall down. Two of the times they got the PK for it. One was possibly a PK but was very weak for a PK IMHO. The other the referee completely got it wrong. The defender went to ground got all ball and the attacking player ran into him after the fact. It was bang bang, and unfortunately with the level of Referee you get at youth soccer level even at SCCL/NL type level I expect most of those referees will not get that call right. Heck I have seen MLS referees get it wrong as well.
That being said the other team continued to flop around the goal and it was quite evident that was what was going on. I have never seen so many kids on the ground in a game for the opposing team. When they wouldn't get a call they got real mouthy to the referee as well almost like most of the time their shenanigans worked on most referees. After those two calls, I think the referee got wise and realized what they were doing and they got nothing else called in their advantage around the goal.
He ended up having to give one kid a yellow card for dissent and talked to at least 2-3 other players during that game.
It seems like the coach either told these kids to do that, or the team as a whole talks to each other and coordinates to do that type of thing.
I mean I was joking with the rest of the parents that we needed to all put money in on an acting coach to come in on a non-practice day and teach the art of flopping and selling it if all the other teams we are playing are going to do it.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Sept 9, 2019 14:05:07 GMT -5
Simply, NO! NO! and for the third time NO!
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Post by Keeper on Sept 9, 2019 14:08:09 GMT -5
Unfortunately yes. Especially with today’s professional game. But this is definitely not something to Coach. But just like taking a foul in basketball ala Curry or Harden, or walking a kid in baseball or even wasting time by dribbling to the corner in a soccer game it’s apart of the game. 🤷🏻♂️
But again, any coach who’s decent will not coach this, but they won’t stop it if done correctly.
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Post by mightydawg on Sept 9, 2019 14:49:45 GMT -5
Giving a card for simulation would help to clean it up.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 9, 2019 15:15:17 GMT -5
I think so. When you're getting fouled over and over and its not being called by the referee, you have to go down easy to try and balance it out (or just risk frustration red cards). Crappy homer refs are all over this state. Had a college ref Saturday, very methodical and matter-of-fact, fouls were called on both teams, it was fantastic. Had a crappy ref Sunday watch a player be taken down in the box by another player laying on the ground, no call.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Sept 9, 2019 16:09:18 GMT -5
Giving a card for simulation would help to clean it up. I agree and maybe in ECNL/DA caliber games with better referees that happens, but in NL/NPL/SCCL type games the caliber of referee you get is not going to have the stones to give a card for simulation. I have never seen it given in any game my kid has played in. Heck you barely see it being called in professional games, because the call is so subjective unless the guy flopping just does a horrible job at it. So I think most referees tend to not card that because they can't 100% be sure it was simulation. |
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Post by mightydawg on Sept 9, 2019 17:09:32 GMT -5
Giving a card for simulation would help to clean it up. I agree and maybe in ECNL/DA caliber games with better referees that happens, but in NL/NPL/SCCL type games the caliber of referee you get is not going to have the stones to give a card for simulation. I have never seen it given in any game my kid has played in. Heck you barely see it being called in professional games, because the call is so subjective unless the guy flopping just does a horrible job at it. So I think most referees tend to not card that because they can't 100% be sure it was simulation. It won't happen. No doubt. However, you want to take it out of the game, give a card for it. A good indication is that if the player is looking for the referee while rolling around on the ground "injured", it is simulation. Cards in general are not given enough. I had a ref flat out tell us after a thigh high tackle as the ball was rolling out of bounds that cards are youth soccer are frowned upon. If refs would start issuing cards at younger ages, it would clean up the fouls and simulation. Players do it because they get away with it at younger ages. |
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Post by soccermonster on Sept 16, 2019 17:04:05 GMT -5
I remember this post from a few weeks ago and it came to mind during one of our games this past weekend. In 4 different occasions during the first half of our game where we had possession, the opposing team had a player down on the field and the opposing team would call the ref to alert them of the downed player. Once the ref blew his whistle, stopped the game, went over to check on the player, they hopped up and wobbled back onto the field. Each time, we did not see how the player went down as it wasn't during the midst of tackle or a visible incident so it was a bit weird. Two out of the 4 occasions, the ref did a drop ball. What is the rule on stopping a game and why don't they give possession back to the team who had it?
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Post by rifle on Sept 16, 2019 18:45:54 GMT -5
I remember this post from a few weeks ago and it came to mind during one of our games this past weekend. In 4 different occasions during the first half of our game where we had possession, the opposing team had a player down on the field and the opposing team would call the ref to alert them of the downed player. Once the ref blew his whistle, stopped the game, went over to check on the player, they hopped up and wobbled back onto the field. Each time, we did not see how the player went down as it wasn't during the midst of tackle or a visible incident so it was a bit weird. Two out of the 4 occasions, the ref did a drop ball. What is the rule on stopping a game and why don't they give possession back to the team who had it? 2019/20 law change requires an uncontested dropped ball, given to the team who had possession last (ie when play was whistled dead or ball sent out). Other team must back off 4 meters IIRC. Contested dropped ball doesn’t exist anymore. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 16, 2019 18:50:17 GMT -5
Yeah, the ref is supposed to drop it in front of a player whose team had the ball and all opponents have to be (I believe) 4 yards away.
What club/team appeared to be flopping? It helps everyone if it's common knowledge. In this case it sounds worse than flopping, it's a deliberate attempt to slow/stop another team's attack.
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Post by nthsoccerdad19 on Sept 16, 2019 19:05:52 GMT -5
Absolutely! I always remind my kid to flop if he gets bumped or pushed! It's a part of the game.
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Post by Respect on Sept 16, 2019 22:09:54 GMT -5
I made the following comment in another thread:
Just one more clarification regarding the dropped ball that may help you later:
If play is stopped inside the penalty area, the ball will be dropped for the defending team goalkeeper, i.e. irrespective of what team last touched the ball.
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Post by soccermonster on Sept 17, 2019 8:32:00 GMT -5
I made the following comment in another thread: Just one more clarification regarding the dropped ball that may help you later: If play is stopped inside the penalty area, the ball will be dropped for the defending team goalkeeper, i.e. irrespective of what team last touched the ball. This was the case in our game -both times they were in the opposing teams box but we had possession. |
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Sept 17, 2019 8:40:12 GMT -5
I think for me, we are trying to teach the beautiful game not the bad habits of the overpaid adults that sully the game. Flopping is different from being fouled and going down(especially in the box). I don't think flopping should ever be taught...
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Post by blu on Sept 17, 2019 10:14:17 GMT -5
I agree, 100% against flopping but I am for intentionally drawing a foul (body positioning, quick cut/catch, push the ball out at the last moment before a tackle, etc.)
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Post by ultimatedad on Sept 17, 2019 11:06:32 GMT -5
It is rare that a ref ever calls a foul unless the player falls intentionally or not. A ref told me once that a team was coplaining to him about shirt pulling. He told them if they wanted him to call it they would have to fall down. That sounds crazy to me but soccer officiating has a different culture than typical American sports.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Sept 17, 2019 11:45:46 GMT -5
I agree, 100% against flopping but I am for intentionally drawing a foul (body positioning, quick cut/catch, push the ball out at the last moment before a tackle, etc.) I get what you are saying and sadly that is now part of the game. However, going into a play with the goal of drawing a foul to me is pseudo flopping. The goal is to score regardless of all the encumbrances like players, goalies in your way. It teaches the youth to focus more on drawing the foul in lieu of actually trying to cut thru the back-line et.al to find the back of the net. What if you don't get the call? In today's game also, teams also rely on the counterattack, so while you're feigning injury and looking to the CR, AR1, AR2, VAR and the 4th official to make the call, your opponent is already in your box looking to hit pay-dirt. Just my 2 1/2 cents.... |
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Post by blu on Sept 17, 2019 12:23:46 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting feigning a foul, I meant the drawing of a legit foul. I understand it can be a very fine line though and its generally something you learn at an older age.
My child plays defense so I'm teaching him all this from the other side.
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Post by honeybadger on Sept 17, 2019 13:42:05 GMT -5
Agree with Futsawl: NO!!!!!!!
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Post by soccerguru on Sept 17, 2019 13:43:03 GMT -5
flopping is and always will be part of the beautiful game. The same thing happens in LAX when players get hit while attacking they are told to fall because they get the foul. Just part of the game, just like baseball pitchers throwing high and inside.
I'm not a fan of flopping but they're are multiple players playing at the DA/ECNL level that I've seen master this move since they were u9.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 17, 2019 14:39:02 GMT -5
It is rare that a ref ever calls a foul unless the player falls intentionally or not. A ref told me once that a team was coplaining to him about shirt pulling. He told them if they wanted him to call it they would have to fall down. That sounds crazy to me but soccer officiating has a different culture than typical American sports. Yeah, thats the gist of it, and that would be my point. I'd call it flopping because you don't "have to" fall, its not a bogus "simulation". But it is a foul and if it goes uncalled you're going to have to make it seem worse than it is. Plus the fall may make the jersey pull more obvious. |
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Post by kidsocceruber on Sept 17, 2019 15:00:43 GMT -5
You can't run through a goalkeeper that has control of the ball and that still happens with no penalty called either, and when they're not called for them it pushes the limits of what they can get away with next time thus making flopping even more prevalent to try and get a call.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Sept 17, 2019 15:18:29 GMT -5
It is rare that a ref ever calls a foul unless the player falls intentionally or not. A ref told me once that a team was coplaining to him about shirt pulling. He told them if they wanted him to call it they would have to fall down. That sounds crazy to me but soccer officiating has a different culture than typical American sports. Yeah, thats the gist of it, and that would be my point. I'd call it flopping because you don't "have to" fall, its not a bogus "simulation". But it is a foul and if it goes uncalled you're going to have to make it seem worse than it is. Plus the fall may make the jersey pull more obvious. Agree. The flopping i was talking about in the initial post, I don't think most referees would call the contact that took place a foul. Physical play with a little shouldering by both players etc... isn't a foul. This team in question would fall down over the smallest of touches by the defender. Things again that would not constitute a foul even missed. I understand the falling down even when you don't really have to once you legitimately are fouled, though in some of those instances if you don't get the call you are doing a disservice to your team. My son's team players won't fall down even when fouled much less flop when a tiny bit of contact happens. Its about 50/50 on whether the referee figures out that you went down easy on slight contact or if it was an actual foul. Most of the younger ones are going to call fouls no matter what. The older adult referees (especially ones that were or are players) can usually discern the difference. |
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Post by nole95 on Sept 18, 2019 13:22:01 GMT -5
This past weekend we had a couple of interesting calls/non-calls in my daughters game.
First half the linesman raised his flag because an opposing player supposedly pulled our player's jersey in the box. To be honest, I did not see anything that prevented our player from being able to get to the goal, and she didn't even go down or seem to lose a step when the jersey was pulled. I suppose she could have gone down there, but she did not. After talking with the linesman, the head ref awarded a PK. Even though it benefited our team, it was a pretty weak PK call.
On the flip side, right at the end of what was a very tight game, my daughter got behind the D. It was one of the few instances this game where our players were able to get behind their defense, and my daughter was off to the races. My daughter does not like to go down/flop. She prefers to use her body to get around defenders to try to score on her own instead of potentially missing a PK, which she hates taking. Goalkeeper came about a step outside the box, slid down and took out my daughter right at the ankles before reaching out for the ball. Myself and everyone else thought it should have been a foul just outside the box and maybe even a card for the keeper. Nothing was whistled. Even if the ref did not want to call a foul, he completely missed the part where the keeper touched the ball outside the box, so it should have been a kick from that spot anyway.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Sept 18, 2019 17:42:51 GMT -5
This past weekend we had a couple of interesting calls/non-calls in my daughters game. First half the linesman raised his flag because an opposing player supposedly pulled our player's jersey in the box. To be honest, I did not see anything that prevented our player from being able to get to the goal, and she didn't even go down or seem to lose a step when the jersey was pulled. I suppose she could have gone down there, but she did not. After talking with the linesman, the head ref awarded a PK. Even though it benefited our team, it was a pretty weak PK call. On the flip side, right at the end of what was a very tight game, my daughter got behind the D. It was one of the few instances this game where our players were able to get behind their defense, and my daughter was off to the races. My daughter does not like to go down/flop. She prefers to use her body to get around defenders to try to score on her own instead of potentially missing a PK, which she hates taking. Goalkeeper came about a step outside the box, slid down and took out my daughter right at the ankles before reaching out for the ball. Myself and everyone else thought it should have been a foul just outside the box and maybe even a card for the keeper. Nothing was whistled. Even if the ref did not want to call a foul, he completely missed the part where the keeper touched the ball outside the box, so it should have been a kick from that spot anyway. Keeper touching the ball outside the box...we had a no call on the same thing this weekend. Double whammy for you though between the lack of a foul call and the hand ball |
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Post by Keeper on Sept 18, 2019 19:08:43 GMT -5
This past weekend we had a couple of interesting calls/non-calls in my daughters game. First half the linesman raised his flag because an opposing player supposedly pulled our player's jersey in the box. To be honest, I did not see anything that prevented our player from being able to get to the goal, and she didn't even go down or seem to lose a step when the jersey was pulled. I suppose she could have gone down there, but she did not. After talking with the linesman, the head ref awarded a PK. Even though it benefited our team, it was a pretty weak PK call. On the flip side, right at the end of what was a very tight game, my daughter got behind the D. It was one of the few instances this game where our players were able to get behind their defense, and my daughter was off to the races. My daughter does not like to go down/flop. She prefers to use her body to get around defenders to try to score on her own instead of potentially missing a PK, which she hates taking. Goalkeeper came about a step outside the box, slid down and took out my daughter right at the ankles before reaching out for the ball. Myself and everyone else thought it should have been a foul just outside the box and maybe even a card for the keeper. Nothing was whistled. Even if the ref did not want to call a foul, he completely missed the part where the keeper touched the ball outside the box, so it should have been a kick from that spot anyway. Just playing devils advocate here, if it wasn’t a GK and a field player making a slide tackle how bad would have it been? Minus the handling of the ball of course. |
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Sept 19, 2019 12:44:18 GMT -5
This past weekend we had a couple of interesting calls/non-calls in my daughters game. First half the linesman raised his flag because an opposing player supposedly pulled our player's jersey in the box. To be honest, I did not see anything that prevented our player from being able to get to the goal, and she didn't even go down or seem to lose a step when the jersey was pulled. I suppose she could have gone down there, but she did not. After talking with the linesman, the head ref awarded a PK. Even though it benefited our team, it was a pretty weak PK call. On the flip side, right at the end of what was a very tight game, my daughter got behind the D. It was one of the few instances this game where our players were able to get behind their defense, and my daughter was off to the races. My daughter does not like to go down/flop. She prefers to use her body to get around defenders to try to score on her own instead of potentially missing a PK, which she hates taking. Goalkeeper came about a step outside the box, slid down and took out my daughter right at the ankles before reaching out for the ball. Myself and everyone else thought it should have been a foul just outside the box and maybe even a card for the keeper. Nothing was whistled. Even if the ref did not want to call a foul, he completely missed the part where the keeper touched the ball outside the box, so it should have been a kick from that spot anyway. Keeper touching the ball outside the box...we had a no call on the same thing this weekend. Double whammy for you though between the lack of a foul call and the hand ball Keepers get way too much leeway and protection just like QB's in Football. I've seen plenty of calls not go the attacking team's way when they get to the ball first or at the same time and there is contact made. 99% of the time it is called a foul on the attacking player unless the keeper is just really really late getting there. But if it is bang bang or same time it is either a no call or a foul on the attacking player. I think referees forget that both players have equal right to a ball. |
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Post by Keeper on Sept 19, 2019 23:35:26 GMT -5
Keeper touching the ball outside the box...we had a no call on the same thing this weekend. Double whammy for you though between the lack of a foul call and the hand ball Keepers get way too much leeway and protection just like QB's in Football. I've seen plenty of calls not go the attacking team's way when they get to the ball first or at the same time and there is contact made. 99% of the time it is called a foul on the attacking player unless the keeper is just really really late getting there. But if it is bang bang or same time it is either a no call or a foul on the attacking player. I think referees forget that both players have equal right to a ball. Yeah I think you’re in the minority here. I think most people are okay with Keepers getting the benefit of the doubt even if it’s 30/70 towards the attacker. And yes QBs should have more protection because that’s the moneymakers, money solves everything. 🤷🏻♂️ |
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