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Post by georgiasoccerdad on Sept 11, 2019 11:34:44 GMT -5
There is a prior link about a coach addressing an opposing player during the game. I think we can all agree that doesn't belong and should be reviewed by the clubs and governing body. But has anyone had an issue when it was the Center Ref making inappropriate comments to players?
In a recent NL match our GK (my daughter) came out of the box to redirect a ball out of our zone, the opposing player caused a collision sending the GK to the ground which resulted in her taking a moment or two to collect herself. She politely reminded the ref that was the player's third foul of the first half- his response was to chastise her- saying he didn't need her input, but not a word was said to the player who committed the foul (she ended up with either six or seven for the match).
Obviously as a parent I'm going to see this through my daughter's perspective first, but I have to wonder how a center is more concerned about the fragility of their own ego instead of the safety of the players. I've seen dozens of similar situations where the ref would nod and acknowledge the comment- knowing that in the moment a player who has been fouled is going to be a little heated for a second. The second part of this is she is also captain of the team- seems to me like she has the right to make a comment to the ref about the situation.
Maybe I'm just an overprotective dad- but after seeing her jaw dislocated in a tourney and no call, I'm willing to be more cautious.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Sept 11, 2019 11:48:01 GMT -5
I used to be on the side of the parent as well, but now that my son does both refereeing and playing I see both sides a lot better. I have heard many referees tell parents, players, coaches that they didn't need their input before. I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
If the referee was bad (ignoring multiple fouls, etc...) then the way to pursue this is to ask the coach for your daughter's team to file a complaint about the referee to that referee's assignor.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Sept 11, 2019 13:01:15 GMT -5
There is a prior link about a coach addressing an opposing player during the game. I think we can all agree that doesn't belong and should be reviewed by the clubs and governing body. But has anyone had an issue when it was the Center Ref making inappropriate comments to players? In a recent NL match our GK (my daughter) came out of the box to redirect a ball out of our zone, the opposing player caused a collision sending the GK to the ground which resulted in her taking a moment or two to collect herself. She politely reminded the ref that was the player's third foul of the first half- his response was to chastise her- saying he didn't need her input, but not a word was said to the player who committed the foul (she ended up with either six or seven for the match). Obviously as a parent I'm going to see this through my daughter's perspective first, but I have to wonder how a center is more concerned about the fragility of their own ego instead of the safety of the players. I've seen dozens of similar situations where the ref would nod and acknowledge the comment- knowing that in the moment a player who has been fouled is going to be a little heated for a second. The second part of this is she is also captain of the team- seems to me like she has the right to make a comment to the ref about the situation. Maybe I'm just an overprotective dad- but after seeing her jaw dislocated in a tourney and no call, I'm willing to be more cautious. One can never fault you for wanting to protect your child and I also believe referees should grow thicker skin and maybe even put in ear plugs(I did) to drown out the noise. However, bad calls, missed calls, etc. aside, the player should really not be chiming in on the referee. I don't think it applies to your daughter but left unchecked you end up having some older kids dropping F*** Bombs 😱 That should be the coaches domain with the referee(respectfully) or the assignor or head referee if they are on site. Only because she's a youth soccer player, I think the referee could have handled it by maybe going up to your daughter and gently using it as a teachable moment by maybe acknowledging the situation but also reminding her about the decorum when it comes to input with the referee. The real question for me is why your coach didn't feel the need to speak with the ref. when it came to the offending player continuously showing reckless play? BTW: hope your daughter is okay |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 11, 2019 13:21:49 GMT -5
Frankly, that SHOULD BE (but is not) a purpose of the captain, to be the one on the field who is allowed to address team concerns to the center referee. Hence, whay in pro/international matches do teams transfer the captain mantle when the captain is subbed? What is the purpose? Coin flip before extra time?
Secondly, if a player is putting your team's players in danger and the referee is doing nothing about it, sometimes it's worth one player taking a red card, especially if you're protecting your players. IMO, retaliation is sometimes warranted.
Third, was this a home or away match? I have seen far too much biased officiating lately, to the point that where I am starting to think that perhaps center refs shouldn't be allowed to officiate games at clubs they have ties to (played at, have kids at, had kids at).
Lastly, referees need to understand that cautioning a player is not a bad thing, and not a last resort. Caution early when you see a pattern of behavior. But perhaps this referee had no problem with what one team does (and would caution the other team) or against another team. Pro one team or anti another.
I saw poor officiating several times last year. Thus far I've seen 2 bad centers (one was young and ineffectual, the other was homering the other team) and one bad AR (he was homering OUR team).
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Sept 11, 2019 13:40:40 GMT -5
Third, was this a home or away match? I have seen far too much biased officiating lately, to the point that where I am starting to think that perhaps center refs shouldn't be allowed to officiate games at clubs they have ties to (played at, have kids at, had kids at). This will never happen because there is referee shortage, and they will take all they can get. Most teenage referees mostly ref their club's games at the location their team is from. I know that is what my son does. Yes he referees some tournaments that are not with his club, but that is the exception not the rule. Very few parents or teenagers are going to drive many miles away from their own venues to work or have their child work games. I know I wouldn't do that if it was a requirement because there are very few clubs close to where we live. The few academy and select games that he has refereed I saw no bias in what he did, and in rec games there is no bias because it is same club playing each other. |
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Post by georgiasoccerdad on Sept 11, 2019 13:46:04 GMT -5
There is a prior link about a coach addressing an opposing player during the game. I think we can all agree that doesn't belong and should be reviewed by the clubs and governing body. But has anyone had an issue when it was the Center Ref making inappropriate comments to players? In a recent NL match our GK (my daughter) came out of the box to redirect a ball out of our zone, the opposing player caused a collision sending the GK to the ground which resulted in her taking a moment or two to collect herself. She politely reminded the ref that was the player's third foul of the first half- his response was to chastise her- saying he didn't need her input, but not a word was said to the player who committed the foul (she ended up with either six or seven for the match). Obviously as a parent I'm going to see this through my daughter's perspective first, but I have to wonder how a center is more concerned about the fragility of their own ego instead of the safety of the players. I've seen dozens of similar situations where the ref would nod and acknowledge the comment- knowing that in the moment a player who has been fouled is going to be a little heated for a second. The second part of this is she is also captain of the team- seems to me like she has the right to make a comment to the ref about the situation. Maybe I'm just an overprotective dad- but after seeing her jaw dislocated in a tourney and no call, I'm willing to be more cautious. One can never fault you for wanting to protect your child and I also believe referees should grow thicker skin and maybe even put in ear plugs(I did) to drown out the noise. However, bad calls, missed calls, etc. aside, the player should really not be chiming in on the referee. I don't think it applies to your daughter but left unchecked you end up having some older k ids dropping F*** Bombs 😱 That should be the coaches domain with the referee(respectfully) or the assignor or head referee if they are on site. Only because she's a youth soccer player, I think the referee could have handled it by maybe going up to your daughter and gently using it as a teachable moment by maybe acknowledging the situation but also reminding her about the decorum when it comes to input with the referee. The real question for me is why your coach didn't feel the need to speak with the ref. when it came to the offending player continuously showing reckless play? BTW: hope your daughter is okay Totally get your point- but even the biggest f bomb does less damage than a concussion or torn knee. The best refs I've watched make sure to let the players know they heard even if it means they don't agree. Secondly, in a time when the #metoo movement is so prevalent, what message do we send to our 16 y/o girls that even though they've been hurt, we don't need their input? |
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Post by mightydawg on Sept 11, 2019 14:50:29 GMT -5
It sounds like the ref had called fouls on the player but your daughter was upset that the player had not been carded. As I have stated in another thread, refs give too few cards. Nevertheless and based upon the above assumption that the fouls were being called, kids (and parents) do not need to be complaining about the call of a referee. Most referees are out there doing the best that they can. Kids need to play the game and let the referee ref the game. Kids need to understand that bad calls are a part of the game. Until a kid plays a perfect game, they need to be complaining to the ref for not being perfect.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 11, 2019 15:17:29 GMT -5
Even if a player fouls players multiple times then eventually breaks someone's leg or jaw or worse? Sounds to me like this player was consistently infringing on the laws of the game.
"Just rub some dirt on it. Sure, I could have given that player a caution to attempt to curtail their reckless behavior, but hey, you weren't playing a perfect game either."
Refs have to be better than the players. Cautionable offenses are cautionable offenses, referees should use their cards to manage the game.
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Post by mightydawg on Sept 12, 2019 9:08:25 GMT -5
Even if a player fouls players multiple times then eventually breaks someone's leg or jaw or worse? Sounds to me like this player was consistently infringing on the laws of the game. "Just rub some dirt on it. Sure, I could have given that player a caution to attempt to curtail their reckless behavior, but hey, you weren't playing a perfect game either." Refs have to be better than the players. Cautionable offenses are cautionable offenses, referees should use their cards to manage the game. I am in full agreement that refs should use cards more, particularly at younger age groups, to teach kids what is cautionable behavior and what is not. However, it obnoxious for a kid to be whining to a ref. Too much whining at the refs has filtered down from the pro game. Let the coach handle it. |
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Post by soccerloafer on Sept 12, 2019 9:43:38 GMT -5
Referees who do not actively listen to players and coaches are missing important information that can help manage the game. I'm not talking about constant whining and criticism, but constructive and honest comments:
"Ref, please watch #4, he's hit my player from behind after the play twice now."
"Ref, please tighten up a bit, this is getting sloppy and someone's going to get hurt."
"Ref, #7 is saying really bad things in Spanish to our #12, and #12 is about to retaliate."
"Ref, this is an ECNL match, we're used to more body contact, let us play a bit."
I continue to tell younger referees I work with to listen for the actual facts in the complaints, acknowledge, assess, and act if necessary.
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Post by soccergurl on Sept 12, 2019 9:44:12 GMT -5
Me thinks referees shud ref and players shud play, period!
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Post by nole95 on Sept 16, 2019 7:31:08 GMT -5
We had a very bad ref yesterday in my daughter's game. The field ref, not the line judge, blew the offside whistle twice when our players were on our own side of the field. They were not in an offside position on the attacking side of the field. Other team's D was playing way up. Thing is the assistant ref on the sideline never put his flag up in either instance because you can never be offside in your own half of the field. This was an older ref as well, and I thought our coach was going to lose it. I have never heard her go after a ref like she did after the second whistle. Both times, our forwards would have had clear breakaways with no defenders near them. Ended up losing 2-1, which made it all the more frustrating.
Also appears the opponents keeper had something of a potty mouth. My daughter told us there were multiple times the keeper was telling our players to "F off" after they would charge down a ball before the keeper could get to it. I'm sure it happens a lot, but daughter said this was over and above what she has heard in the past. To the point that she politely mentioned it to the ref, who did not even acknowledge her or try to defuse things.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 16, 2019 8:49:10 GMT -5
That's too bad, hate that the game might have been lost due to that.
We had a couple breakaways saturday at Fowler taken away by an AR who was simply wrong. In one case our player was on her own half like you mention, on the other the far side fullback (directly in front of the AR) was keeping our player onside by over a yard before the ball was played (the ball and our player were about 4 yards in front of the parents). When the player took possession of the ball, she was STILL in an onside position. The center ref was decent in that game (though a bit slow to make the calls). Our girls still won the game handily so it didnt matter that much, but as few breakaway chances as you get in a game its frustrating for a ref to take that away from players. Had we been losing, I'm sure the parents would have started losing it.
An AR's duty mainly just covers who touched the ball last when the ball leaves play and to stay in a line with the last defender or the ball, whichever is closer to the goal (which he was). So one of 3 things happened...he doesn't understand the rulee, he didnt understand what he was seeing, or he does understand the rules and what he was seeing and still made the wrong call.
We had an awesome younger center ref Sunday. Even gave out a rare caution when a defender intentionally took out a player on a breakaway (was the 2nd to last defender so no DOGSO). So rare that call is made in my experience. One of our players was on the edge of getting a caution and this ref talked to her and our coach pulled her soon after.
When your team is pretty good you're somewhat insulated from poor officiating. Which wasnt our case last year.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Sept 16, 2019 11:01:19 GMT -5
That's too bad, hate that the game might have been lost due to that. We had a couple breakaways saturday at Fowler taken away by an AR who was simply wrong. In one case our player was on her own half like you mention, on the other the far side fullback (directly in front of the AR) was keeping our player onside by over a yard before the ball was played (the ball and our player were about 4 yards in front of the parents). When the player took possession of the ball, she was STILL in an onside position. The center ref was decent in that game (though a bit slow to make the calls). Our girls still won the game handily so it didnt matter that much, but as few breakaway chances as you get in a game its frustrating for a ref to take that away from players. Had we been losing, I'm sure the parents would have started losing it. An AR's duty mainly just covers who touched the ball last when the ball leaves play and to stay in a line with the last defender or the ball, whichever is closer to the goal (which he was). So one of 3 things happened...he doesn't understand the rulee, he didnt understand what he was seeing, or he does understand the rules and what he was seeing and still made the wrong call. We had an awesome younger center ref Sunday. Even gave out a rare caution when a defender intentionally took out a player on a breakaway (was the 2nd to last defender so no DOGSO). So rare that call is made in my experience. One of our players was on the edge of getting a caution and this ref talked to her and our coach pulled her soon after. When your team is pretty good you're somewhat insulated from poor officiating. Which wasnt our case last year. Unfortunately the offsides call with the player on the way far side of the field keeping them on side but not being seen is not that uncommon. That has happened to our team at least a dozen times over the last year or so. I think that they sometimes lose that player either in the mass of parents or players warming up on the side lines or players playing on the field next to that field or something. I just don't know. It is super frustrating. Offsides calls in youth soccer are wrong a lot. It is a hard call to make especially if your forwards are fast as they often look offsides when they aren't. I hate it when the calls are wrong and they decide a game. Even really good teams can lose or tie a game if they are on the wrong end of offsides calls. Happened to us this weekend. Goal called back when player was on side and we tied 1-1 instead of winning 2-1. |
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Post by varsicle on Sept 25, 2019 10:50:55 GMT -5
Frankly, that SHOULD BE (but is not) a purpose of the captain, to be the one on the field who is allowed to address team concerns to the center referee. Hence, whay in pro/international matches do teams transfer the captain mantle when the captain is subbed? What is the purpose? Coin flip before extra time? Secondly, if a player is putting your team's players in danger and the referee is doing nothing about it, sometimes it's worth one player taking a red card, especially if you're protecting your players. IMO, retaliation is sometimes warranted. Third, was this a home or away match? I have seen far too much biased officiating lately, to the point that where I am starting to think that perhaps center refs shouldn't be allowed to officiate games at clubs they have ties to (played at, have kids at, had kids at). Lastly, referees need to understand that cautioning a player is not a bad thing, and not a last resort. Caution early when you see a pattern of behavior. But perhaps this referee had no problem with what one team does (and would caution the other team) or against another team. Pro one team or anti another. I saw poor officiating several times last year. Thus far I've seen 2 bad centers (one was young and ineffectual, the other was homering the other team) and one bad AR (he was homering OUR team). it's worth one player taking a red card, especially if you're protecting your players. IMO, retaliation is sometimes warranted |
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Post by soccerloafer on Sept 25, 2019 15:11:12 GMT -5
"Secondly, if a player is putting your team's players in danger and the referee is doing nothing about it, sometimes it's worth one player taking a red card, especially if you're protecting your players. IMO, retaliation is sometimes warranted."
A better solution, if player safety is involved, is to pull your team from the field and let the DOC handle it. You can't argue with player safety concerns.
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Post by Keeper on Sept 25, 2019 16:48:45 GMT -5
"Secondly, if a player is putting your team's players in danger and the referee is doing nothing about it, sometimes it's worth one player taking a red card, especially if you're protecting your players. IMO, retaliation is sometimes warranted." A better solution, if player safety is involved, is to pull your team from the field and let the DOC handle it. You can't argue with player safety concerns. Parents can do this, but as a coach it’s a guarantee one game suspension and most likely you’ll forfeit the game. To quote a higher up from Ga Soccer years ago Coaches can not pull a team from the field due to what they perceive is a lack of player safety. This is just another reason of how ass backwards GA Soccer and their lack of mentoring and educating Referees. It’s assumed Refs are always correct no matter what. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 25, 2019 18:35:33 GMT -5
"Secondly, if a player is putting your team's players in danger and the referee is doing nothing about it, sometimes it's worth one player taking a red card, especially if you're protecting your players. IMO, retaliation is sometimes warranted." A better solution, if player safety is involved, is to pull your team from the field and let the DOC handle it. You can't argue with player safety concerns. Parents can do this, but as a coach it’s a guarantee one game suspension and most likely you’ll forfeit the game. To quote a higher up from Ga Soccer years ago Coaches can not pull a team from the field due to what they perceive is a lack of player safety. This is just another reason of how ass backwards GA Soccer and their lack of mentoring and educating Referees. It’s assumed Refs are always correct no matter what. By the same token if in that situation where you would pull the team, and the decision is made to stay and play, if there is a player-caused injury, GA Soccer should be liable for the referees actions. At youth ages, the coach should be able to get the attention of the center ref, say this is the point of no return, where I want to pull my team. After that point, the referee should need to worry about what GA soccer/whatever league will do with them should a player-caused injury occur. Otherwise you're basically talking about having a coach force players to put themselves into a dangerous situation at the expense of a their meager salary. The coach has ZERO power to protect their players in the current system. Your only alternative is "play dirtier than they are/take out their best player before they take out ours." We are talking about kids who are not wearing pads or helmets getting into American football type collisions in many cases. My kid has been taken out like a wide receiver taken down by a defensive back while running down the sidelines on several occasions. The head of officiating told us that if you give a red card, you better be able to explain the situation to him, basically meaning "dont give red cards." The LoTG simply say "excessive force"; and you know excessive force in soccer when you see it. Referees should not FEAR giving out cards, it's simply a tool at their disposal, use them as the situation dictates. Also, I'm of the opinion that a parent on your team should film every game, if the coach/DoC wants file a protest, you should have evidence. Lastly IMO FIFA needs to put wording into the laws section about referees, that below the U17 age group their primary responsibility is to player's safety/protect the players. |
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Post by Respect on Sept 25, 2019 19:59:10 GMT -5
FIFA LOTG emphasize that referees should apply the LOTG to produce FAIR and SAFE games for all (and this applies to all levels).
LOTG also states that a match official is not liable for any kind of injury suffered by a player, official or spectator.
In general, I agree that there are many fouls and misconducts deserving cautions, send offs that go un-administered. Though in some cases, depending on the level of players/game, game flow/control, a downgrade from reckless to careless with a warning can keep the match FAIR and SAFE while maintaining a good game flow.
Finally, in this case, If in fact, it’s clear cut that a player is there to injure another player intentionally, perhaps the Parent of the player or the coach of the player should take him/her out (as opposed to wait for referee to take action). I have seen some parents get upset at their kids for committing certain fouls or disrespect other players/refs to the point of telling them they will take them out of the game. I find this educational for the player as well as other parents and coaches.
As part of fair-play, it should be the responsibility of all participants of the game to create a safe environment for all: officials, coaches, player, teammates, spectators, parents, and of course referees.
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Post by soccerloafer on Sept 25, 2019 21:14:46 GMT -5
"Secondly, if a player is putting your team's players in danger and the referee is doing nothing about it, sometimes it's worth one player taking a red card, especially if you're protecting your players. IMO, retaliation is sometimes warranted." A better solution, if player safety is involved, is to pull your team from the field and let the DOC handle it. You can't argue with player safety concerns. Parents can do this, but as a coach it’s a guarantee one game suspension and most likely you’ll forfeit the game. To quote a higher up from Ga Soccer years ago Coaches can not pull a team from the field due to what they perceive is a lack of player safety. This is just another reason of how ass backwards GA Soccer and their lack of mentoring and educating Referees. It’s assumed Refs are always correct no matter what. One game suspension for a coach v. ACL surgery and 9 month rehab? Keep your players safe and let the pinheads worry about the consequences. It's a game. |
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Post by Keeper on Sept 25, 2019 21:51:33 GMT -5
Parents can do this, but as a coach it’s a guarantee one game suspension and most likely you’ll forfeit the game. To quote a higher up from Ga Soccer years ago Coaches can not pull a team from the field due to what they perceive is a lack of player safety. This is just another reason of how ass backwards GA Soccer and their lack of mentoring and educating Referees. It’s assumed Refs are always correct no matter what. One game suspension for a coach v. ACL surgery and 9 month rehab? Keep your players safe and let the pinheads worry about the consequences. It's a game. You do realize almost all ACL tears are from non-contact right? But I do love how you’ve turned a 0.5% chance of a game into a sure thing. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Sept 26, 2019 6:27:06 GMT -5
Broken bones and concussions are more likely contact injuries. Though muscle and ligament injuries are possible likely when you're trying to avoid contact (unnatural movements).
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Post by soccerloafer on Sept 26, 2019 7:59:34 GMT -5
One game suspension for a coach v. ACL surgery and 9 month rehab? Keep your players safe and let the pinheads worry about the consequences. It's a game. You do realize almost all ACL tears are from non-contact right? But I do love how you’ve turned a 0.5% chance of a game into a sure thing. Most but not all. Getting hit with a foot planted is another common cause. The point is that the kids are playing a game, that they do for fun. Injury is always a risk. When you combine a poor referee and a team (or players) out of control, I'd rather take my toys and go home. |
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