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Post by soccerworld1974 on May 28, 2020 15:20:50 GMT -5
Agree, more responsibility needs to be taken in player promotion
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Post by soccerdad76 on May 28, 2020 21:49:43 GMT -5
Going into the fall, the past 4 years have been:
3 new, 4 promoted
2 new, 2 promoted, 1 lateral branch location move
3 new, 2 promoted, 1 lateral branch location move
4 new, 3 promoted
Overall 12 new and 11 promoted. Based on the forum I’d expect this to be 80-90% new shiny toys. Seems pretty balanced to me 🤷♂️
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Post by soccerworld1974 on May 28, 2020 23:03:02 GMT -5
Not bad. I mean there are two sides to this. Those are great stats though.
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Post by oraclesfriend on May 29, 2020 6:44:11 GMT -5
Going into the fall, the past 4 years have been: 3 new, 4 promoted 2 new, 2 promoted, 1 lateral branch location move 3 new, 2 promoted, 1 lateral branch location move 4 new, 3 promoted Overall 12 new and 11 promoted. Based on the forum I’d expect this to be 80-90% new shiny toys. Seems pretty balanced to me 🤷♂️ That is great! Which club? The last two years at our oldest's age group the top team at our club promoted no one and took in 7 new players last year. The second team had 2 promoted to it and 5 new kids last year. Our experience in the years at the club have been no promotions to top team. All new players. Still waiting to hear for final results on this year but doubting any promotion. The younger kid's team (still academy ages) had 5 promotions last year. None of the players were from outside the club when they were promoted. This year top team took one outside player. So different experiences based on age (academy should have a lot of promotion because the kids change so much). |
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Post by bogan on May 29, 2020 7:23:30 GMT -5
Going into the fall, the past 4 years have been: 3 new, 4 promoted 2 new, 2 promoted, 1 lateral branch location move 3 new, 2 promoted, 1 lateral branch location move 4 new, 3 promoted Overall 12 new and 11 promoted. Based on the forum I’d expect this to be 80-90% new shiny toys. Seems pretty balanced to me 🤷♂️ That is great! Which club? The last two years at our oldest's age group the top team at our club promoted no one and took in 7 new players last year. The second team had 2 promoted to it and 5 new kids last year. Our experience in the years at the club have been no promotions to top team. All new players. Still waiting to hear for final results on this year but doubting any promotion. The younger kid's team (still academy ages) had 5 promotions last year. None of the players were from outside the club when they were promoted. This year top team took one outside player. So different experiences based on age (academy should have a lot of promotion because the kids change so much). I agree-that was great-no promotions this year to the top team at my sons now former club. After four years of being strung along we’ve decided it’s time for a change. |
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Post by mistergrinch on May 29, 2020 7:27:12 GMT -5
That is great! Which club? The last two years at our oldest's age group the top team at our club promoted no one and took in 7 new players last year. The second team had 2 promoted to it and 5 new kids last year. Our experience in the years at the club have been no promotions to top team. All new players. Still waiting to hear for final results on this year but doubting any promotion. The younger kid's team (still academy ages) had 5 promotions last year. None of the players were from outside the club when they were promoted. This year top team took one outside player. So different experiences based on age (academy should have a lot of promotion because the kids change so much). I agree-that was great-no promotions this year to the top team at my sons now former club. After four years of being strung along we’ve decided it’s time for a change. Unfortunately it seems that it's often the only way to get a look to move up. One of mine is moving this year for the same reason.. surprise, surprise - other clubs were much more interested in her than her own club. |
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Post by soccerdad76 on May 29, 2020 12:37:27 GMT -5
Top team, CF boys. I suspect those that feel slighted (right or wrong, it’s the eye of the beholder) are the most vocal. Not really sure if “impossible to move up” is the norm.
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Post by soccer888 on May 30, 2020 16:18:49 GMT -5
I'm just always stunned at how much easier it is for kids to leave their own club to move up the ladder vs staying put. So many kids i've heard offered ecnl spots for example at other clubs, but not even given a look at their own club. I've heard this exact story way too many times. It's worse when the club is preaching 'promotion from within'.. then they go fill every available spot with outsiders.. over and over again. Even worse this year when coaches controlled who could be evaluated! "Next in line" at your own club means nothing. Even when several players above leave. Even after specifically requesting an evaluation. Even after years of floating in the middle of team 1 & 2. No reply whatsoever from our club or coaches. Only new faces were considered to fill those vacated spots. Getting told no after a tryout is easier to stomach than not even getting a chance to tryout at all. |
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Post by bogan on May 30, 2020 16:22:57 GMT -5
I've heard this exact story way too many times. It's worse when the club is preaching 'promotion from within'.. then they go fill every available spot with outsiders.. over and over again. Even worse this year when coaches controlled who could be evaluated! "Next in line" at your own club means nothing. Even when several players above leave. Even after specifically requesting an evaluation. Even after years of floating in the middle of team 1 & 2. No reply whatsoever from our club or coaches. Only new faces were considered to fill those vacated spots. Getting told no after a tryout is easier to stomach than not even getting a chance to tryout at all. Time to vote with your feet. We did. Time for a change of scenery. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on May 30, 2020 17:54:14 GMT -5
Even worse this year when coaches controlled who could be evaluated! "Next in line" at your own club means nothing. Even when several players above leave. Even after specifically requesting an evaluation. Even after years of floating in the middle of team 1 & 2. No reply whatsoever from our club or coaches. Only new faces were considered to fill those vacated spots. Getting told no after a tryout is easier to stomach than not even getting a chance to tryout at all. Time to vote with your feet. We did. Time for a change of scenery. A local guy who trains players told a friend's kid that she needed to go elsewhere because the club would always view her as a second team player regardless of how much she improved. Once a second team player, always a second team player in their mind. |
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Post by nole95 on May 31, 2020 7:50:43 GMT -5
I agree with all these sentiments about players not getting a fair shot to move up.
My daughter definitely deserved a fair shot to move to a higher level team. She even talked to her current coach about it, as we want her to learn to advocate for herself. Coach was honest and told her coach told her that some coaches have their mind set on who they want. To be fair, her coach did tell her they would do everything to get her to guest play on these higher level teams at showcases.
I know of at least one other girl in a similar situation. She is also stuck on a team she probably shouldn't be on any longer, and is clearly better than a couple of the players at the same position on the higher level team.
All they wanted was a fair shot, which neither of them got.
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Post by collegesoccer on May 31, 2020 8:16:36 GMT -5
I agree with all these sentiments about players not getting a fair shot to move up. My daughter definitely deserved a fair shot to move to a higher level team. She even talked to her current coach about it, as we want her to learn to advocate for herself. Coach was honest and told her coach told her that some coaches have their mind set on who they want. To be fair, her coach did tell her they would do everything to get her to guest play on these higher level teams at showcases. I know of at least one other girl in a similar situation. She is also stuck on a team she probably shouldn't be on any longer, and is clearly better than a couple of the players at the same position on the higher level team. All they wanted was a fair shot, which neither of them got. I’ve noticed similar concerns by several parents and wanted to provide a little insight we learned which may help navigate these situations. Most coaches and clubs are focused on player development even though it’s tough to see at times from our perspective (as parents). There are several things coaches have learned to help players in their development... 1) When a player becomes one of the better players on a team, it’s good for the player to stay on the team for a while to grow into that leadership and develop confidence as a “star” player. Moving too quickly will short circuit this important step in a players development. The seasons of their development when my kids were among the top few players on their teams were when we saw some of the most growth. 2) We learned that to move up to the next team, your player doesn’t just need to be better than one or two players on the higher level team. Often, they need to be in the top third of the higher level team. There are several reasons for this. Among them, the goal for each team is to get better to continue developing all the players on each team. If a coach and club are regularly bringing players into the bottom of the team, the team “gets worse” each time, not better. This would not help the existing players or the new arrivals. Once we realized this, my kids made a list of every player on the higher level team with the goal of “getting better” than every player on the team. In other words, they wanted there to be no doubt that they were coming into the top third of the team. They hung the list on the wall in their training space and put in the work. They reviewed the list of players of the higher level team regularly, marking off each player when they felt like they had passed the player in their holistic development. Every time they got the list down to 4 or 5 players, they were moved to the higher level team. I hope that this an encouragement to you and your player. Resist the urge to become frustrated and discouraged. Keep working hard - it will be noticed and rewarded. |
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Post by bogan on May 31, 2020 8:34:47 GMT -5
I agree with all these sentiments about players not getting a fair shot to move up. My daughter definitely deserved a fair shot to move to a higher level team. She even talked to her current coach about it, as we want her to learn to advocate for herself. Coach was honest and told her coach told her that some coaches have their mind set on who they want. To be fair, her coach did tell her they would do everything to get her to guest play on these higher level teams at showcases. I know of at least one other girl in a similar situation. She is also stuck on a team she probably shouldn't be on any longer, and is clearly better than a couple of the players at the same position on the higher level team. All they wanted was a fair shot, which neither of them got. I’ve noticed similar concerns by several parents and wanted to provide a little insight we learned which may help navigate these situations. Most coaches and clubs are focused on player development even though it’s tough to see at times from our perspective (as parents). There are several things coaches have learned to help players in their development... 1) When a player becomes one of the better players on a team, it’s good for the player to stay on the team for a while to grow into that leadership and develop confidence as a “star” player. Moving too quickly will short circuit this important step in a players development. The seasons of their development when my kids were among the top few players on their teams were when we saw some of the most growth. 2) We learned that to move up to the next team, your player doesn’t just need to be better than one or two players on the higher level team. Often, they need to be in the top third of the higher level team. There are several reasons for this. Among them, the goal for each team is to get better to continue developing all the players on each team. If a coach and club are regularly bringing players into the bottom of the team, the team “gets worse” each time, not better. This would not help the existing players or the new arrivals. Once we realized this, my kids made a list of every player on the higher level team with the goal of “getting better” than every player on the team. In other words, they wanted there to be no doubt that they were coming into the top third of the team. They hung the list on the wall in their training space and put in the work. They reviewed the list of players of the higher level team regularly, marking off each player when they felt like they had passed the player in their holistic development. Every time they got the list down to 4 or 5 players, they were moved to the higher level team. I hope that this an encouragement to you and your player. Resist the urge to become frustrated and discouraged. Keep working hard - it will be noticed and rewarded. While I agree with the premise of this, I must admit I rarely have seen this in practice (the commitment of the club to develop players). I think it can be helpful to get a second opinion and tryout the landscape elsewhere. Soccer is all about opinions. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on May 31, 2020 8:56:22 GMT -5
I agree with all these sentiments about players not getting a fair shot to move up. My daughter definitely deserved a fair shot to move to a higher level team. She even talked to her current coach about it, as we want her to learn to advocate for herself. Coach was honest and told her coach told her that some coaches have their mind set on who they want. To be fair, her coach did tell her they would do everything to get her to guest play on these higher level teams at showcases. I know of at least one other girl in a similar situation. She is also stuck on a team she probably shouldn't be on any longer, and is clearly better than a couple of the players at the same position on the higher level team. All they wanted was a fair shot, which neither of them got. I’ve noticed similar concerns by several parents and wanted to provide a little insight we learned which may help navigate these situations. Most coaches and clubs are focused on player development even though it’s tough to see at times from our perspective (as parents). There are several things coaches have learned to help players in their development... 1) When a player becomes one of the better players on a team, it’s good for the player to stay on the team for a while to grow into that leadership and develop confidence as a “star” player. Moving too quickly will short circuit this important step in a players development. The seasons of their development when my kids were among the top few players on their teams were when we saw some of the most growth. 2) We learned that to move up to the next team, your player doesn’t just need to be better than one or two players on the higher level team. Often, they need to be in the top third of the higher level team. There are several reasons for this. Among them, the goal for each team is to get better to continue developing all the players on each team. If a coach and club are regularly bringing players into the bottom of the team, the team “gets worse” each time, not better. This would not help the existing players or the new arrivals. Once we realized this, my kids made a list of every player on the higher level team with the goal of “getting better” than every player on the team. In other words, they wanted there to be no doubt that they were coming into the top third of the team. They hung the list on the wall in their training space and put in the work. They reviewed the list of players of the higher level team regularly, marking off each player when they felt like they had passed the player in their holistic development. Every time they got the list down to 4 or 5 players, they were moved to the higher level team. I hope that this an encouragement to you and your player. Resist the urge to become frustrated and discouraged. Keep working hard - it will be noticed and rewarded. While some of this makes sense and can be motivating to the player I have rarely seen this actually happen. I am glad for your child that it has. There are some issues though with remaining on the lower team when you are better and the goals are high. One of those issues is that the players are the lower team are often not as motivated and do not work hard in trainings and get frustrated or work to derail the players working hard and being physical in training. This has happened to our kid. A lot of whining and complaining about the degree of intensity while training. If the players around you are not serious it is harder to keep your intensity up. It can be a good life lesson to work even under distractions but not an environment I would willingly keep my kid in two years in a row. Next the comment about being in the top third makes sense because then you are CLEARLY superior to enough people that they have to put you on the team. But even replacing the bottom two people with people that are only slightly better than them will not make the team worse. That doesn't make sense. It still improves the team to swap any player for one better. Finally I think part of the problem is that who is better is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen some top team players that have terrible first touches and can't pass to save a life but remain on teams or get on teams because the coaches see something in them. Whether it is that they defend well 1v1 or something else. Coaches have preferences on what they like. Your advice is sound and will work well with my younger child who has time and needs time on a lower team to build that confidence of a star player. But I think for the older group most coaches are so set about who is worthy that you have to move if you really want a chance. |
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Post by soccer888 on May 31, 2020 9:04:05 GMT -5
[/quote]
While I agree with the premise of this, I must admit I rarely have seen this in practice (the commitment of the club to develop players).
I think it can be helpful to get a second opinion and tryout the landscape elsewhere. Soccer is all about opinions.
[/quote]
Agreed, some coaches may do this and many may claim this ideal, but it isn't put into practice very often. Most picked their top favorites years ago and perhaps due to ego or parent suck ups, some of those kids stay on top despite not developing much since day one. Refusing even a 5 min evaluation for the top "team 2" kids speaks volumes. They weren't even allowed a consideration.
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Post by bogan on May 31, 2020 9:05:34 GMT -5
I’ve noticed similar concerns by several parents and wanted to provide a little insight we learned which may help navigate these situations. Most coaches and clubs are focused on player development even though it’s tough to see at times from our perspective (as parents). There are several things coaches have learned to help players in their development... 1) When a player becomes one of the better players on a team, it’s good for the player to stay on the team for a while to grow into that leadership and develop confidence as a “star” player. Moving too quickly will short circuit this important step in a players development. The seasons of their development when my kids were among the top few players on their teams were when we saw some of the most growth. 2) We learned that to move up to the next team, your player doesn’t just need to be better than one or two players on the higher level team. Often, they need to be in the top third of the higher level team. There are several reasons for this. Among them, the goal for each team is to get better to continue developing all the players on each team. If a coach and club are regularly bringing players into the bottom of the team, the team “gets worse” each time, not better. This would not help the existing players or the new arrivals. Once we realized this, my kids made a list of every player on the higher level team with the goal of “getting better” than every player on the team. In other words, they wanted there to be no doubt that they were coming into the top third of the team. They hung the list on the wall in their training space and put in the work. They reviewed the list of players of the higher level team regularly, marking off each player when they felt like they had passed the player in their holistic development. Every time they got the list down to 4 or 5 players, they were moved to the higher level team. I hope that this an encouragement to you and your player. Resist the urge to become frustrated and discouraged. Keep working hard - it will be noticed and rewarded. While some of this makes sense and can be motivating to the player I have rarely seen this actually happen. I am glad for your child that it has. There are some issues though with remaining on the lower team when you are better and the goals are high. One of those issues is that the players are the lower team are often not as motivated and do not work hard in trainings and get frustrated or work to derail the players working hard and being physical in training. This has happened to our kid. A lot of whining and complaining about the degree of intensity while training. If the players around you are not serious it is harder to keep your intensity up. It can be a good life lesson to work even under distractions but not an environment I would willingly keep my kid in two years in a row. Next the comment about being in the top third makes sense because then you are CLEARLY superior to enough people that they have to put you on the team. But even replacing the bottom two people with people that are only slightly better than them will not make the team worse. That doesn't make sense. It still improves the team to swap any player for one better. Finally I think part of the problem is that who is better is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen some top team players that have terrible first touches and can't pass to save a life but remain on teams or get on teams because the coaches see something in them. Whether it is that they defend well 1v1 or something else. Coaches have preferences on what they like. Your advice is sound and will work well with my younger child who has time and needs time on a lower team to build that confidence of a star player. But I think for the older group most coaches are so set about who is worthy that you have to move if you really want a chance. [ I agree 100%. Similar situation with my older child. Highly motivated (ODP, NPL, private lessons)...for some reason, coach on first team didn’t choose him. Stayed 3 seasons with different advice every year on how to make top team. So...we got other opinions and found a coach who believes in our kid. |
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Post by bogan on May 31, 2020 9:33:02 GMT -5
While I agree with the premise of this, I must admit I rarely have seen this in practice (the commitment of the club to develop players). I think it can be helpful to get a second opinion and tryout the landscape elsewhere. Soccer is all about opinions. [/quote] Agreed, some coaches may do this and many may claim this ideal, but it isn't put into practice very often. Most picked their top favorites years ago and perhaps due to ego or parent suck ups, some of those kids stay on top despite not developing much since day one. Refusing even a 5 min evaluation for the top "team 2" kids speaks volumes. They weren't even allowed a consideration. [/quote][ True...it may just be inertia or status quo. Whatever the reason, there is little inter club movement in a lot of cases.🤷🏻♂️ |
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Post by atlsoccerdad on May 31, 2020 16:04:09 GMT -5
I'm just always stunned at how much easier it is for kids to leave their own club to move up the ladder vs staying put. So many kids i've heard offered ecnl spots for example at other clubs, but not even given a look at their own club. I've heard this exact story way too many times. It's worse when the club is preaching 'promotion from within'.. then they go fill every available spot with outsiders.. over and over again. I agree that it is frustrating. But I think that coaches that actively be work in cooperation with the coach "below" them and scout talent on the team directly below them generate a strong reputation and deserved loyalty... I have seen this recently with BW and RD from UFA and was very impressed. |
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Post by soccerworld1974 on May 31, 2020 19:30:35 GMT -5
UFA in general just do everything right in so many ways.
Skills for soccer, skills for life takes on a huge meaning.
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Post by atlsoccerdad on Jun 1, 2020 8:11:05 GMT -5
UFA in general just do everything right in so many ways. Skills for soccer, skills for life takes on a huge meaning. Oh, I never said UFA does everything right... I can give many examples of UFA doing things "wrong" too. I am sure other coaches do this at other clubs - but it is not systemic and it should be. Right now it is lucky to find good coaches that actually help the players, improve the process and retain integrity. The system is broken, but there ARE small ways to improve it. This is one. |
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Post by nole95 on Jun 1, 2020 14:12:27 GMT -5
While some of this makes sense and can be motivating to the player I have rarely seen this actually happen. I am glad for your child that it has. There are some issues though with remaining on the lower team when you are better and the goals are high. One of those issues is that the players are the lower team are often not as motivated and do not work hard in trainings and get frustrated or work to derail the players working hard and being physical in training. This has happened to our kid. A lot of whining and complaining about the degree of intensity while training. If the players around you are not serious it is harder to keep your intensity up. It can be a good life lesson to work even under distractions but not an environment I would willingly keep my kid in two years in a row. Next the comment about being in the top third makes sense because then you are CLEARLY superior to enough people that they have to put you on the team. But even replacing the bottom two people with people that are only slightly better than them will not make the team worse. That doesn't make sense. It still improves the team to swap any player for one better. Finally I think part of the problem is that who is better is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen some top team players that have terrible first touches and can't pass to save a life but remain on teams or get on teams because the coaches see something in them. Whether it is that they defend well 1v1 or something else. Coaches have preferences on what they like. Your advice is sound and will work well with my younger child who has time and needs time on a lower team to build that confidence of a star player. But I think for the older group most coaches are so set about who is worthy that you have to move if you really want a chance. This is definitely a concern. I know for a fact that at least three girls from the team that was two levels below our team last season have been brought up for 2020. We did lose a few girls who decided not to play any longer, but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that these new additions are not talented enough to warrant a two level jump. My guess at the moment is that they probably did not have enough girls at to make a lower level team and are now trying to stuff what they can onto the higher level team, which will be a detriment to those girls who have been working their tails off to get better the past few years. Especially if they load up the team with too many players. My only hope is that their team plays at a high enough level that players are no longer guaranteed equal playing time and perhaps some of these new players will be coming off the bench. As I told my daughter, this is the time she will need to learn to be more a leader and do what she can to keep these girls motivated and not be afraid to talk to her coach if she notices 100% effort is not being given at practice or on the field. |
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Post by kidsocceruber on Jun 1, 2020 17:10:22 GMT -5
Unfortunately our experience at UFA falls into the had to move clubs to move up category. I suppose goalkeepers have it harder since there's only one or two a team, but when there's players in the way for whatever reason(incumbents, moving down from higher teams) it's just not worth letting her sit at the lower team when she is better than that and no opportunity exists.
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Post by ga3v3 on Jun 1, 2020 17:17:20 GMT -5
The best thing parents can do is to move their kids. There should be absolutely no loyalty to a club- a coach and team yes but club no.
It’s a very difficult decision for kids to leave what they know and move onto something new. Sometimes it works out sometimes not but you will never know unless you try.
Big clubs are not the only culprits who do not promote within. I’ve seen it happen year in and year out at small clubs too
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Post by bogan on Jun 1, 2020 19:44:51 GMT -5
The best thing parents can do is to move their kids. There should be absolutely no loyalty to a club- a coach and team yes but club no. It’s a very difficult decision for kids to leave what they know and move onto something new. Sometimes it works out sometimes not but you will never know unless you try. Big clubs are not the only culprits who do not promote within. I’ve seen it happen year in and year out at small clubs too I agree but I would add that, unless it’s a complete dumpster fire, I’d give a club at least a couple of seasons. |
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