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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 19, 2020 15:31:42 GMT -5
Seems like every year another "unknown" NBA player becomes the best current player in the world.
What I mean by this.
Damian Lillard, began high school at 5ft 5. Finished high school as a quality player and wasn't highly recruited. goes to Weber State (not duke, unc, kentucky, Michigan state, ucla, USC..) and plays for 3 seasons and becomes the top point guard prospect in the country. The rest is history.
He currently is probably playing basketball better than any other player on the planet. It is a beauty to watch.
Every year NBA brings us another player like this, a kid who was always a quality player, but not the highly touted superstar blue chipper and then becomes an allstar or top 20 talent.
This story line is very common in other sports - patience is key
This doesn't happen in soccer.
Go to college now, your almost forgotten.
Go to the USL and I think its purgatory.
Soccer for the most part doesn't care about the late bloomers, everyone wants the messi's, ronaldo's at 14.
There are many studs out there, we are too busy to discard them at u11/u12 and then again at u15. Give them a chance to mature and grow.
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Post by bogan on Aug 19, 2020 16:00:07 GMT -5
Seems like every year another "unknown" NBA player becomes the best current player in the world. What I mean by this. Damian Lillard, began high school at 5ft 5. Finished high school as a quality player and wasn't highly recruited. goes to Weber State (not duke, unc, kentucky, Michigan state, ucla, USC..) and plays for 3 seasons and becomes the top point guard prospect in the country. The rest is history. He currently is probably playing basketball better than any other player on the planet. It is a beauty to watch. Every year NBA brings us another player like this, a kid who was always a quality player, but not the highly touted superstar blue chipper and then becomes an allstar or top 20 talent. This story line is very common in other sports - patience is key This doesn't happen in soccer. Go to college now, your almost forgotten. Go to the USL and I think its purgatory. Soccer for the most part doesn't care about the late bloomers, everyone wants the messi's, ronaldo's at 14. There are many studs out there, we are too busy to discard them at u11/u12 and then again at u15. Give them a chance to mature and grow. I started high school at 5’5” too...but I ended high school at 5’7” ☹️ |
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Post by Keeper on Aug 19, 2020 17:35:48 GMT -5
Dame has been the best PG in the nba the last 3-4 years but because he plays in Portland most people didn’t know who he was.
He’s a true once a generational player too as he wants to stay in PDX and wants to bring championship caliber players to Portland to win a championship instead of leaving to go somewhere easier. Hell look what’s hes done with old man Melo!
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 20, 2020 7:56:51 GMT -5
Exactly --- a once in a generational player that no MLS youth academy would have had on their radar, he would have been shelved and probably cut or received very little attention.
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Post by 04gparent on Aug 20, 2020 8:16:32 GMT -5
Dame has been the best PG in the nba the last 3-4 years but because he plays in Portland most people didn’t know who he was. He’s a true once a generational player too as he wants to stay in PDX and wants to bring championship caliber players to Portland to win a championship instead of leaving to go somewhere easier. Hell look what’s hes done with old man Melo! Dam Lillard is an awesome player and he is playing lights out right now. However, I wouldn't call him the best PG in the NBA for the last 3 years. To me Steph Currie was or at least was 3 years ago. From a soccer perspective, this can happen. He played college ball at a small college which in soccer terms is probably the equivalent of D2 or D3. He would have to go to a USL squad and then blow up from there. Right now America is still building or rebuilding the soccer landscape with levels. Lastly, we need more places for kids to play pickup soccer. I actually saw some kids playing pickup soccer in Cobb County last week... It was great to see... This can only happen in an environment like that. |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 20, 2020 8:35:00 GMT -5
Oh it can happen for sure in soccer, but it's extremely common on the nba. Hell the player you just mentioned is even a better example -- curry.
nobody wanted him out of high school, even his fathers alma mater said he could walk on but that was it with no guarantees.
the point is the nba truly can assess and evaluate players at 21-23 years of age, with a handful of 18/19 year olds that can make the jump after their freshman year etc. Soccer picks kids at u12 and then It's extremely hard to crack into that team, then again at u15 they determine who the top players are and decide a different path for these kids. AU as stated this clearly, their top youth players are on a different path etc. If you don't make AU at u12, its extremely hard to get looked at, evaluated and recruited in. Extremely hard.
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Post by justwatching on Aug 20, 2020 13:13:42 GMT -5
Oh it can happen for sure in soccer, but it's extremely common on the nba. Hell the player you just mentioned is even a better example -- curry. nobody wanted him out of high school, even his fathers alma mater said he could walk on but that was it with no guarantees. the point is the nba truly can assess and evaluate players at 21-23 years of age, with a handful of 18/19 year olds that can make the jump after their freshman year etc. Soccer picks kids at u12 and then It's extremely hard to crack into that team, then again at u15 they determine who the top players are and decide a different path for these kids. AU as stated this clearly, their top youth players are on a different path etc. If you don't make AU at u12, its extremely hard to get looked at, evaluated and recruited in. Extremely hard. Sports like football and basketball are or have been so very different than soccer in the US. I'm not saying it should be but it is setup different so the development/opportunities are also different. In football and basketball in the States parks and schools are the training grounds. They are free and abundant. The competitive programs are the schools and the actual coaching you get at the schools are good. The pool of players that are good/competent at most MSs and HSs are large. Even the recreation little league programs are where the best players play prior to middle school (this is also changing with AAU). So access for the masses is high (proximity, etc.), barriers to participate is low (cost, etc.) Colleges are where you have to go (this is now changing in basketball with G league, etc.) in order to make it pro or play the next level. This is where the best players in the world play from 18-21/22 unlike soccer. If you can create that same environment for soccer I think you would see more of this. High Schools aren't kicking players to the curb who aren't elite, they don't have the luxury/ability to pick and choose/recruit/inherit better players. For the most part they have who lives in the district so the incentive is to develop all of them into the best player they can be in order to win. In football and basketball you will always get players looked over by these top schools that eventually make it big. It doesn't mean they were late developers (in some cases maybe they were) could be size, speed, exposure, etc. Those kids that go to a small D1 or D2 and make it to be stars in my mind is similar to ATL United cutting kids or those not making the top U12 at some club and then being left behind. |
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Post by rifle on Aug 20, 2020 20:45:34 GMT -5
One open pyramid would do wonders for coaches and players who are otherwise overlooked.. but can play. Instead we have a development tree full of gilded branches. Gate keepers everywhere. The words “sporting merit” are so far down the list it’s pathetic.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 21, 2020 7:44:48 GMT -5
Ja Morant is another great example -- not sure what his career will become, but he went from obscurity of Sumpter, South Carolina to Murray State and took sportscenter by storm and became a highlight factory.
a nobody to - becoming the first player in NCAA history to average 20-plus points and 10-plus assists per game for a single season and 2nd pick in the draft.
Regardless of what happens, he has been given the opportunity now to shine and show his skillset to the world.
I have a former nba post that looked at the top players in the league, and 1/2 of them were not the bluechip all world players.
Hoops is similar to socccer also -- there are hundreds of the school yard players that for various reasons never could adapt to the concept of organized hoops. Mabye it was injuries, drugs, or just the art of pick up ball.
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Post by fridge on Aug 21, 2020 9:05:29 GMT -5
I think this is a great question which I have not ever responded to because I am not sure I know the answer. I decided to take a stab. Then, as I typed this, I did some research which made me even more uncertain of my opinions. That said, while my opinions are probably not worth much, I have shared the numbers which may impact other's thoughts.
To begin, I question the initial premise as related to soccer development. I am not sure it is significant that an unknown rises to the top in the NBA as related to the root issues w/ soccer development. If a guy is talented enough to be in the NBA, he must be really good--top 350 player in the world and playing/competing in the best country. Couldn't one argue that the basketball system "missed" Lillard and that is why he went to Weber State? Given he was a 6th overall pick, it is hard to believe he "developed" that well in 4 years at Weber State (where he would have played against inferior opponents and practiced w/ inferior teammates compared to say an ACC player.) Further, if he developed in the NBA, why can't an MLS player take it to the next level while playing in the MLS? (I don't know about the history of US soccer to know if say the Europeans thought Tim Howard or Landon Donovan where Ok players, but developed so well in the MLS that they became solid players in the Premiership.
My gut is that the Euros dismissed American players so they must have done something special in MLS to get Euros attention.)
Meanwhile, if you believe Lillard did develop that well at Weber, is it possible he is just an anomaly? And, what stops a college soccer player from becoming an anomaly. There are solid numbers for soccer players as indicated below.
I would argue that it boils down to the traditional numbers and TALENT game in the US. Frankly, the college numbers surprised me, but more on this in a second. Let's face it, 90% (if not more) of our best talent play Football, Basketball or Football. The more talent you have, the more likely you may peak at a later age. According to my Google search, there are 350 D1 basketball programs (which shocks me). That's 5200 D1 hoopers playing in college AND I believe almost all get full rides. Meanwhile, there are 205 men's D1 soccer programs (which also surprised me but many schools I hadn't heard of) which would mean about 4000 players. However, perhaps 20% get full rides and the rest get a a lot less. Most of these players from a less talented pool are not focusing on a pro soccer career. I would think a much larger % of college BB players--even those at Weber State, think they may play pro. If not, they may go to Europe. For US soccer players, if they can't get into MLS, they can't go to Europe. At best, they go to USL and make $20,000.
So, I through up in the air a lot of info, maybe someone else will craft a more succinct/articulate point.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 21, 2020 9:49:04 GMT -5
I think that is kind of my point, the system missed out on many of these kids, but given the way the player pathway is, they still can find there way back in though various options etc.
I don't think its anomaly -- they have a system in place, where players can almost go to any div 1 program and be identified. Go play soccer at Murray State or Weber state, and you will slip into the world of being non existent - mabye you get drafted by an MLS team because your scored a ton of goals, but your shipped to the USL.
Yes, there are examples of many players in soccer, Cobi Jones for example. Just seems to be almost the norm in hoops -- guys can attend the smaller schools, be 1 or 2 star player out of high school and then become a top 25 player.
maybe that is kind of the point -- in hoops the cream rises to the top.....
does it in soccer during this same time of a players career?
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Post by mistergrinch on Aug 21, 2020 10:19:22 GMT -5
It happens in football as well. The current superstar and highest paid tight end (George Kittle) was barely recruited out of HS and was only given a spot at Iowa because of family history.
Jerry Rice played at Mississippi Valley State. He turned out to be pretty good.
Yes, the big football factories in the SEC and Big 12 churn out plenty of first-rounders.. but there are a LOT that get overlooked or develop late.
I remember Jevon Kearse - a first round pick as a defensive end. When he got to college, he was slated to be a SAFETY because he was 6'4" and 215lbs. He grew .. a lot.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 21, 2020 10:21:08 GMT -5
It happens in football as well. The current superstar and highest paid tight end (George Kittle) was barely recruited out of HS and was only given a spot at Iowa because of family history. Jerry Rice played at Mississippi Valley State. He turned out to be pretty good. Yes, the big football factories in the SEC and Big 12 churn out plenty of first-rounders.. but there are a LOT that get overlooked or develop late. I remember Jevon Kearse - a first round pick as a defensive end. When he got to college, he was slated to be a SAFETY because he was 6'4" and 215lbs. He grew .. a lot. the freak!! |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Aug 21, 2020 10:44:13 GMT -5
I agree. One thing I hear ALL of the time watching premier league is how these players are "young" when they are talking about 22 and 23 year old guys. Sometimes even older guys. They always talk about mid to late 20's as the peak years. Yet here we are in the US dropping players off teams at the young ages of 12 or 13, telling kids they can't make it when they are just little babies. Chris Richard's story was interesting. Got cut after a trial at young high school age (I think 15) by FC Dallas. Then FC Texans Houston decides he is worth a look. Then Dallas says "oh yeah we do want you now." Then 2 years later at Bayern.
People are in such a rush to push kids down and not give time to develop. Trials and tryouts are often too short. I think they look for the "wow" but don't notice the smart players because that takes longer to see.
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Post by mistergrinch on Aug 21, 2020 12:01:20 GMT -5
Show me a club player on a TOP team who actually climbed up from the third or fourth team. You'll be looking for a while.
We seem to anoint kids at U10 as a 'top player' and those kids just bounce from top team to top team even when riding the pine or getting cut. Coaches would rather take a kid cut from a top team than give a chance to another player that's 'coming up' It's bizarre.
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Post by bogan on Aug 21, 2020 12:05:44 GMT -5
Show me a club player on a TOP team who actually climbed up from the third or fourth team. You'll be looking for a while. We seem to anoint kids at U10 as a 'top player' and those kids just bounce from top team to top team even when riding the pine or getting cut. Coaches would rather take a kid cut from a top team than give a chance to another player that's 'coming up' It's bizarre. Interestingly enough, happens a lot in the corporate world, too. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Aug 21, 2020 12:10:07 GMT -5
Show me a club player on a TOP team who actually climbed up from the third or fourth team. You'll be looking for a while. We seem to anoint kids at U10 as a 'top player' and those kids just bounce from top team to top team even when riding the pine or getting cut. Coaches would rather take a kid cut from a top team than give a chance to another player that's 'coming up' It's bizarre. Interestingly enough, happens a lot in the corporate world, too. VERY TRUE. I often think the same thing when I see the NFL coaches or top European league coaches recycled year after year, team after team. It is nice when a new person gets an opportunity! |
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Post by mistergrinch on Aug 21, 2020 13:18:48 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, happens a lot in the corporate world, too. VERY TRUE. I often think the same thing when I see the NFL coaches or top European league coaches recycled year after year, team after team. It is nice when a new person gets an opportunity! We're about to find out. If ATL looks sharper under Glass than DeBoer (hard not to be).. and they really turn it around, does he get a shot? If they're successful, he probably should. |
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Post by mightydawg on Aug 21, 2020 13:36:51 GMT -5
VERY TRUE. I often think the same thing when I see the NFL coaches or top European league coaches recycled year after year, team after team. It is nice when a new person gets an opportunity! We're about to find out. If ATL looks sharper under Glass than DeBoer (hard not to be).. and they really turn it around, does he get a shot? If they're successful, he probably should. i think that the standard will be higher than looking sharper. If the team is aggressive, exciting to watch and wins games, he has a chance. |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 21, 2020 13:43:09 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see -- anyone notice a difference with the 2s since he's left? are they better, worse, same, or doesn't matter. More exciting, less exciting?
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Post by justwatching on Aug 21, 2020 14:09:26 GMT -5
So what do you propose in order to not miss the late bloomer or diamond in the rough? Don't form first, second, third, etc. teams? Separate them but give them all the same coach (assuming it is a high level coach)... I am curious what people think would improve this?
I personally think not separating the kids pretty early on based on abilities would make matters worse in a soccer environment or any competitive environment for that matter. School classrooms do the same thing. Put kids that are "advanced" in accelerated or gifted classes. If you don't do that those kids don't reach their potential. One of the differences is the way evaluation is done for those kids in an academic environment. For the most part testing is done with criteria that is not subjective. Sports is subjective in some ways and also has some advantages/disadvantages for physical attributes.
Personally, I think the situation would be more on par with other sports if 1) there were more highly qualified coaches 2) kids played soccer on their own often in parks, etc. 3) the number of kids playing soccer in the states were greatly increased 4) Colleges, USL, etc. something in the US was where all the best players played after HS and before going pro
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 21, 2020 14:16:16 GMT -5
I have no issues with creating separate teams vs pooling. I'm not a pooler.
I'd have coaches once or twice a month coach a different team in the same age group -- run a session, sit on the bench at a game etc. Get to to really know the entire player pool.
Constantly bring 2nd team players to first team training. 3rd team players to 2nd team training. Invite 2nd teamers to first team scrimmages.
I also like coaches coaching the top team and then the 2nd team in the same age group. Often I see this as an opportunity to really pay better attention to the depth of an age group.
I'd always want at least once a month to bring a different coach in to run a training session also. He/She might see something nobody else as seen.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Aug 21, 2020 15:18:37 GMT -5
I have no issues with creating separate teams vs pooling. I'm not a pooler. I'd have coaches once or twice a month coach a different team in the same age group -- run a session, sit on the bench at a game etc. Get to to really know the entire player pool. Constantly bring 2nd team players to first team training. 3rd team players to 2nd team training. Invite 2nd teamers to first team scrimmages. I also like coaches coaching the top team and then the 2nd team in the same age group. Often I see this as an opportunity to really pay better attention to the depth of an age group. I'd always want at least once a month to bring a different coach in to run a training session also. He/She might see something nobody else as seen. All great ideas. You definitely need to separate teams but I do think players need to integrate in some practices. Letting the second team train with top team and third with second and so on is a good thing. There is a lot of subjectivity for sure, both in how people view a player's strengths and weaknesses and how important those strengths and weaknesses are to an individual coach. |
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Post by rifle on Aug 21, 2020 17:43:56 GMT -5
Those ideas are legit. Definitely believe the best three on a typical B team could be more helpful than the last three on the typical A team. Club sizes of course change the parameters but a system that didn’t create castes would be even better.
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