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Post by zizou on Aug 18, 2014 9:16:10 GMT -5
I don't know how much attention people are paying to this, but we watched the four USA games. I must say I was underwhelmed by all 4 USA performances. Even in the 3-0 win over China I did not see reason for optimism about the future of this group. Center backs seem solid at least, and Horan is a beast. But the game against Korea pretty much summed things up for me. USA could not create chances. Korea seemed more organized. They certainly seemed, how should I say it, physically tougher and more committed to winning duels.
USA attacking options seem limited to Lindsey Horan (who seems to have developed herself by playing with boys teams and going pro in Europe instead of going to UNC). Summer Green provided a spark in the Brasil match, but she does not get much playing time. Is fitness an issue for her? Their ability to retain possession is limited. Creativity is lacking (except for Horan). That they have to pull up U17 players to go on this team seems like an indictment of the player pool. Those players were good (obviously) but it was also obvious that they could not compete physically against Germany and Korea. I do not follow this team closely, but was alarmed at what I saw. Are there players not on roster who were excluded because of injury? Is this a coaching issue? Should we be concerned about the development model? What IS the development model?
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 18, 2014 10:32:15 GMT -5
admit i didn't watch much, but i thought savanah jordan was on the roster also, did she not contribute? answered my own question, doesn't look like she played alot www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/08/13/09/24/140813-u20-wwc-statswe are every teams world cup championship, you beat the US and your on the map! i've seen enough talent in this state alone to compete! I've said it before, I was thinking the same thing with the USWNT as well, just very under whelming and stale soccer with limited creativity. very little combination play, and mostly just letting athletes out athlete the opponent. i think player identification in the US is a huge issue on both boys and girls. Its hard enough has some large clubs to get coaches sometimes to see the potential of your kids, it gets harder and harder at every level. |
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Post by zizou on Aug 18, 2014 11:43:07 GMT -5
Savannah Jordan started the Germany game and the China game if I recall. Not very effective although she did get in a nice cross in the China game. She is all power and speed. I would not say she is great on the ball but she is a very very good D1 college player for sure.
I don't know about enough girls in Georgia alone capable of competing at the international level. There is a difference between being able to dominate against average and/or unorganized competition and being able to go out and be effective against the best in the world. Germany is scary. France is scary. I don't see USWNT being able to compete with them in a few years if things remain the same. It was clear these other teams have caught USA in terms of physicality and quality of athlete that has been our ace in hole. What will we do without that advantage?
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Post by jack4343 on Aug 18, 2014 19:41:51 GMT -5
I wanted to watch but I don't think I have the network the games are on and of course being in a hotel over the weekend the options on TV are limited for sure. I do follow Jeff Kassouf on Twitter and he kept me updated on the u20 USWNT. He wasn't impressed either.
Jeff Kassouf @jeffkassouf · Aug 16
This performance from the U-20 USWNT is honestly one of the worst I've seen in a while. No composure on the ball. Impressive from Korea DPR.
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Post by zizou on Aug 19, 2014 9:55:50 GMT -5
I wanted to watch but I don't think I have the network the games are on and of course being in a hotel over the weekend the options on TV are limited for sure. I do follow Jeff Kassouf on Twitter and he kept me updated on the u20 USWNT. He wasn't impressed either. Jeff Kassouf @jeffkassouf · Aug 16 This performance from the U-20 USWNT is honestly one of the worst I've seen in a while. No composure on the ball. Impressive from Korea DPR. Thanks Jack. I did not know about this guy until you mentioned him. But he is not flattering of the USW U20 team. Look at this article for instance, and then the following comments. Equalizer Soccer on US U20 Exit from World CupJust watch these US U20 players and you can tell that they are outclassed technically and tactically (except for a few players). It does not take a soccer genius to make this simple observation. This has to fall somewhere. What is the development model? Who are the coaches? Where are these girls learning to play soccer? How are they identified? I do not think one can even use the old criticism that US Soccer is just taking the biggest and fastest athletes; if so, we are in trouble because the other teams had athletes of similar and/or superior athletic gifts. Nigeria looks far superior to the US U20 team! |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Aug 19, 2014 10:36:09 GMT -5
good questions for sure, which i obviously have no answers, just follow up questions! I second/third your questions as well!
development problem
player identification problem
college problem
I've seen a lot of players identified as "studs" at the younger ages, and they carry a reputation forever about how good they are, when the reality is they aren't quality players. I've seen the opposite players that are quality players getting left off of top teams. Its not easy when you don't even have the support of your local coaching staff to get noticed internally. there are plenty of id camps that require support of your club.
players are labeled here at such young ages. late bloomers struggle to be identified in our current system.
i was somewhat joking when i said, i've seen enough talent in georgia to compete internationally - but i have seen many technical players that are creative on the ball.
is this an odp issue? ecnl issue? my club is not an ecnl club, so our top players don't get the exposure of ecnl clubs, even when some of our teams are better for example, and some of our players, but very few land at top div 1 programs. they just don't get the exposure, even with the national league etc.
one of the biggest problems i always see is coaches forget its a team game, and you need to play as a team, creative or not. if you don't buy in as team you have no chance. some of the problems seem like it might be a style of play issue as well. quality teams need a mix of playing styles, build from the back, possess the ball, play through the midfield and attack. play long when you can, but don't rely on one attacking forward to create all your chances. US women should always be an attacking style team and if a player looks winded make a sub, because depth should not be an issue ------ well apparently depth is an issue.
i think its a player identification issue and current us wmnt coaching issue- too many girls are playing soccer in this country.
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Post by soccergator on Aug 20, 2014 9:07:54 GMT -5
another good read on the wake up call. i do think the win at all costs at the younger ages has an impact here. winning at younger ages with bigger stronger girls vs developing girls technical ability www.socceramerica.com/article/59959/us-u-20-womens-exit-is-wake-up-call.htmlBy Paul Kennedy (@pkedit) What should we make of the USA's exit at the hands of North Korea in the quarterfinals of the Under-20 Women's World Cup? If you go back over the seven U-20 tournaments, the USA won in 2002, 2008 (beating North Korea in the final) and 2012 and lost in shootouts to China in 2006, Nigeria in 2010 and North Korea this year. That means the 3-1 loss to Germany in the 2004 semifinals in Thailand is the only time the USA has lost in the knockout stage of the Under-20 Women's World Cup -- not a bad record. If the goal of a youth national team is to develop a couple of players for the next level each cycle, the 2014 U-20s should pass the test as Lindsey Horan, already capped for the senior national team, is a big-time prospect up front. Rose Lavelle showed for much of the tournament she has a bright future in midfield. And 16-year-old Mallory Pugh -- eligible for the next two U-20 World Cups -- is legit. But what was disturbing was the overall level of play from the Americans at the tournament. For a program that has high expectations, the tools of many of the players were shockingly poor. Then again, this is nothing new as women's soccer experts have been warning that the technical qualities of players coming through the ranks are deficient. That is especially worrying as other countries are starting to move ahead of the USA. The USA-Germany opener was a back-and-forth game with plenty of chances by both teams, but the Germans were in the end deserved winners by 2-0. Germany is a known quantity in women's soccer, but other European countries -- namely France (the only unbeaten and untied team after the group stage) and Spain (runner-up at this year's U-17 World Cup) -- have been making tremendous strides. Many sporting and social factors have inhibited the development of women's soccer in Africa, but Nigeria, a 4-1 winner over New Zealand in Sunday's U-20 quarterfinals, is again in the final four. That North Korea was the better team on Saturday in Toronto should come as no surprise, given the depth of the competition in Asia. Arguably the most talented U-20 team in the world is Japan -- winner of 3-2 and 3-0 decisions over the USA in 2013 -- and it didn't even qualify out of the 2013 U-19 AFC tournament for Canada 2014. One of the huge challenges for U.S. women's soccer is the poor level of competition at the regional level. One of the big reasons Mexico and Costa Rica, as well as the USA, did so well at this year's World Cup in Brazil is the competition they got in the Hexagonal. They all made each other better teams. Nothing of the like could be said about the competition the U.S. U-20 and U-17 women faced in Concacaf, where they finished up with 29-0 and 26-1 scoring margins, respectively, in the current cycle. The crazy thing, of course, is that the U-17s didn't even qualify, falling to Mexico in a shootout in the semifinals after their game finished 1-1. |
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Post by zizou on Aug 20, 2014 11:42:55 GMT -5
another good read on the wake up call. i do think the win at all costs at the younger ages has an impact here. winning at younger ages with bigger stronger girls vs developing girls technical ability Interesting article. I do not buy the Lavelle thing. Yes, she looks more skilled with a broader range of tricks than most of our other players, but she did not seem capable of keeping possession of the ball. I would love to see her possession and passing statistics. I doubt they would be flattering. The U17 struggles are also worrying. There are also some interesting comments at the end of this article. The one that caught my eye, mostly because I was going to mention this specifically in my original post but refrained, is that aren't these U17s and U20s our first crop of players developed through the ECNL system? If our ultimate goal as a soccer nation is to compete on the international stage, things are not looking good for this particular development approach. These international struggles are measurable outcomes are they not? Of course, there are other outcomes that matter to soccer parents. Going to college is very important for the vast majority of kids. This may be the best model for getting a college scholarship. That is a laudable goal. But for the development of international quality players, one would think US Soccer would do something over which they had complete control. Over what do they have complete control on the identification and development sides? As far as I can tell they have the US Soccer Training Centers (Sessions and Combines; there was just a Session in the ATL for 00-03 girls). Multiple events across the USA every year. Players are recommended by local coaches. Does anyone know how they track players after they participate in one of these Sessions? If they find kids they think have promise, how do they arrange for training with USYNT coaches? How much contact do the coaches end up having with these players? How often are they removed from club play so they can train with other kids of high ability and promise under supervision of USYNT coaches? Of course, even if coaches have considerable contact with them, when will US Soccer emphasize ability to keep possession of the ball under pressure?!!! I know this is not easy, but these are supposed to be our best players from a Nation of 300 million people. Please, this is getting embarrassing in comparison to other National Teams. |
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Post by zizou on Aug 21, 2014 7:41:22 GMT -5
Speaking of national teams, did anyone see the USWNT senior side play against Switzerland last night? I only saw second half. It was only available via live stream on ussoccer.com. I will say that pitch in Cary NC looked beautiful!
Only comment I will make at this point is to quote the Swiss coach:
"Some of my players hadn't played at this speed and didn't know this level," Swiss coach Martina Voss-Tecklenburg said. "Tonight they saw how fast women's soccer can be."
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Post by soccergator on Aug 21, 2014 10:20:27 GMT -5
brother in law was there, alex morgan signed his daughters US jersey, so he was stoked!
just watched the highlights
just highlights, but looked like a lot of long balls and shots from distances.
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Post by lovethegame on Aug 21, 2014 19:20:35 GMT -5
brother in law was there, alex morgan signed his daughters US jersey, so he was stoked! just watched the highlights just highlights, but looked like a lot of long balls and shots from distances. I watched last night's game, and I think the highlights are misleading. This is a different team than the one that played in the Olympics two years ago. For one, they play a 4-3-3 with fewer long balls. I saw them consistently play from the back and through the mid-field and felt they possessed the ball better than I had seen. What I remember from two years ago is the long ball to Morgan as she tried to get beyond the defense, which she was good at. To me, they are playing a different game, and they need to to be competitive next year. Now when it comes to the W-20, I was beyond underwhelmed. I saw little possession. Foudy commented on how a 4-3-3 was not the right formation for a team with a weaker midfield. Maybe that was the issue, I don't know. The team couldn't win or possess the ball for most of each of the games. It was disappointing to watch. |
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Post by zizou on Aug 21, 2014 21:05:16 GMT -5
I agree that they looked different in style of play, at least in part of game that I saw. Lloyd is still as good as ever. Abby, unfortunately, was not. Have never been an O'Reilly fan and she did nothing to change my mind last night. Rapinoe and Press were pretty good in what I saw. Rapinoe and Lloyd may be my favorite players on this team. Dunn was not as effective as I remember, although decent, but she has not been a part of this squad for a while for some reason. She is fast though! I liked Klingenberg and Long (she only got a few minutes at end). Need to keep in mind this was against the FIFA #19, so not really a strong test, but it was good to see a different style of play from USWNT. What do they have, two months until the real action starts? Maybe Ellis is continuing process initiated by Sermanni. |
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Post by lovethegame on Aug 22, 2014 8:04:06 GMT -5
I agree that they looked different in style of play, at least in part of game that I saw. Lloyd is still as good as ever. Abby, unfortunately, was not. Have never been an O'Reilly fan and she did nothing to change my mind last night. Rapinoe and Press were pretty good in what I saw. Rapinoe and Lloyd may be my favorite players on this team. Dunn was not as effective as I remember, although decent, but she has not been a part of this squad for a while for some reason. She is fast though! I liked Klingenberg and Long (she only got a few minutes at end). Need to keep in mind this was against the FIFA #19, so not really a strong test, but it was good to see a different style of play from USWNT. What do they have, two months until the real action starts? Maybe Ellis is continuing process initiated by Sermanni. Rapinoe is my favorite. I thought she did a good job in a new position. Does anyone know where Tobin Heath is? Is she still injured or was she on the bench and didn't get in? It it seems that all the national teams are transitioning to a 4-3-3. Our club is an Ecnl club, and all of our Ecnl teams play a 4-3-3 no matter the composition of the team.. That change was made two years ago. It makes me wonder if this is something encouraged by Ecnl because, now that I think of it, all Ecnl teams we play also play 4-3-3. I guess it makes sense that a league that wants to supply the national team with players would play the same system as the national team. Now back to the W20. Most of these player did come from Ecnl teams, but only Pugh and Racciope have played will have played all or most of their Ecnl years as it exists today. The first few years of Ecnl consisted of a few games during the year against other Ecnl clubs with the teams playing the rest of the year in a state league or the Premier League. It was just three years ago that the conference play was established and the teams began playing in that league only. So, while most on the w20 are Ecnl alums, they probably played a whole lot more games in the Premier League than they ever did in Ecnl. Ecnl can claim them, but I bet USYSA also has a claim on them. The U17 team is more a product of Ecnl. it seems Ecnl has been around forever. But, in reality, it Is Mallory Pugh's age group (u17) that will have played conference games from u14-18. So, we may need to wait to see if Ecnl does strengthen the national teams. I think it will, but I am not sure it's great for all players. My feelings have always been mixed. There are things I like and things I don't. It's a whole lot of travel and expense, and by the time a player hits u18 there is player and family fatigue. At least that's what I am seeing. My daughter has played all three years of the league play and has been to more events than I can count. She didn't want to leave her club or team, but there are many times where we, as parents, considered the options. We stuck it out, and she is almost through and will move onto playing in college next year. Another aspect of Ecnl that is coming to fruition is that these clubs are becoming destination clubs. Traveling from Alabama to play in Georgia is no big deal anymore. There are now girls flying in or driving hours to get to a home game. I can't even imagine that expense. Some bypass the closer club to play on one hundreds of miles away. I don't understand it, but it is happening. Would we do it again? As parents, I don't know, but probably. My daughter would definitely tell you she would do it again. But, there is something to be said for playing in a State Cup and then going onto play in Regionals. That is exciting and something most of these Ecnl players will never experience. i don't mean to turn this thread into thread on the value of Ecnl. Don't get me wrong, it's great for many players, but may not be the best option for all players. It's a league that has grown and expanded quickly and accomplished much in a short time. Let's see what the next five years bring. I think more and more girls will move to Ecnl teams at a younger age, and many will travel a significant distance to do it. Will it be worth it to spend so much time and money? I don't know. |
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