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Post by datrain on Oct 24, 2020 20:36:04 GMT -5
What are the penalties for a coach and a program if they are found to have used ineligible players? I have already seen a team having to forfeit the game after it was played at U16. Is that it? Do coaches have their licenses suspended? Do programs get fined?
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Post by collegesoccer on Oct 24, 2020 22:20:27 GMT -5
Why were the players ineligible?
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Post by Keeper on Oct 24, 2020 23:38:49 GMT -5
Define “ineligible”?
Typically, in Ga Soccer, if a coach plays a non rostered player then it’s considered a forfeit and that’s it. The coach and club have no major punishment as long as it’s a one time thing. If there’s multiple forfeits then the club is fined for those forfeits.
Has to become a major issue and multiple rules broken before they go after the club and coach.
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Post by SoccerFirst on Oct 25, 2020 6:39:23 GMT -5
Do you know how it’s happening, the player has to be on the game card when referees check the players in? And if I had a dime for every time I have heard “well, with GA soccer”... unfortunately, SCCL hasn’t worked out all its kinks, and my expectations for those things getting fixed is low, bc we all dove into a league created by a bunch of folks that care a whole lot about the “top” teams and $$ and less and less about SCCL and lower level teams.
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Post by datrain on Oct 25, 2020 7:53:13 GMT -5
Use of non-rostered players
What really frosts me is the willful use of ECNL players or MLS Next players in SCCL Premier games.....or those that roster SCCL Club players on Premier teams to game the system and let the kids float up. I have encountered the latter twice this season where you had former DA/ECNL players rostered on the lowest team and floating up.
My kids aren’t all stars. They look forward to challenging games like most kids do. But with the Internet and social media, it is really easy to figure out when people attempting shenanigans. As a parent, all you want is fairness. There will always be better players and teams and there are plenty of lessons to be learned from losing, especially to good teams.
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Post by SoccerFirst on Oct 25, 2020 8:15:30 GMT -5
Use of non-rostered players What really frosts me is the willful use of ECNL players or MLS Next players in SCCL Premier games.....or those that roster SCCL Club players on Premier teams to game the system and let the kids float up. I have encountered the latter twice this season where you had former DA/ECNL players rostered on the lowest team and floating up. My kids aren’t all stars. They look forward to challenging games like most kids do. But with the Internet and social media, it is really easy to figure out when people attempting shenanigans. As a parent, all you want is fairness. There will always be better players and teams and there are plenty of lessons to be learned from losing, especially to good teams. This is different from the original poster’s question regarding unrostered players. The players your describing are legally rostered or dual rostered. I agree that some clubs might take advantage of this rule, HOWEVER the rule is in place to help with player development. If the clubs/teams are making these roster decisions to give the number 18 player on an ECNL roster game minutes on the clubs 2nd team, then I think most people would agree with that circumstance. Another reason this might happen, a club only has 13 kids for a roster and needs 15-16 so the club rosters a couple players lower so they can help out the lower level team and player pass to their team. It’s the clubs that dual roster or drop roster the best players so they can help teams across the age group that people should have a problem with. Unfortunately, we are relying on coaches/DOCs to make these roster decisions, and sometimes winning trumps development. |
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Post by bogan on Oct 25, 2020 8:19:15 GMT -5
This has been happening for as long as I can remember-the gamesmanship of rostering better players on lower teams. There would be a team that was facing relegation to say classic 4 from 3, hadn’t won a game -all of the sudden they would win 3-4 games and stay up after pulling down those players. This seemed to happen more with the big clubs.
I have witnessed a case of a club playing truly ineligible players (several 1-2 years older). The particular team in question had a +27 goal differential and didn’t get a goal scored on them all season. They got found out at the state cup-multiple clubs had filed complaints and GA Soccer took action. They were DQ’d (entire season) and faced fines-they disbanded.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 25, 2020 8:51:04 GMT -5
Use of non-rostered players What really frosts me is the willful use of ECNL players or MLS Next players in SCCL Premier games.....or those that roster SCCL Club players on Premier teams to game the system and let the kids float up. I have encountered the latter twice this season where you had former DA/ECNL players rostered on the lowest team and floating up. My kids aren’t all stars. They look forward to challenging games like most kids do. But with the Internet and social media, it is really easy to figure out when people attempting shenanigans. As a parent, all you want is fairness. There will always be better players and teams and there are plenty of lessons to be learned from losing, especially to good teams. This is different from the original poster’s question regarding unrostered players. The players your describing are legally rostered or dual rostered. I agree that some clubs might take advantage of this rule, HOWEVER the rule is in place to help with player development. If the clubs/teams are making these roster decisions to give the number 18 player on an ECNL roster game minutes on the clubs 2nd team, then I think most people would agree with that circumstance. Another reason this might happen, a club only has 13 kids for a roster and needs 15-16 so the club rosters a couple players lower so they can help out the lower level team and player pass to their team. It’s the clubs that dual roster or drop roster the best players so they can help teams across the age group that people should have a problem with. Unfortunately, we are relying on coaches/DOCs to make these roster decisions, and sometimes winning trumps development. I agree with your statement about player #18 (or even 15-18) getting more minutes being acceptable. I also agree that many clubs send their ringers down to win. Honestly I have seen the rich keep getting richer, meaning that the best players seem to get more opportunities playing up age groups, training up and many times playing with lower teams. It is usually not player 18 that is given the minutes. Sometimes that is on the club (they want to win) but sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level. In my utopia all kids would be given the opportunity to play and train with teams at their level, below their level and above their level. Below can build confidence and give an opportunity to try new things in a less stressful environment. At their level, most of the time. Above their level to challenge them to get better and show them where the gap is. |
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Post by SoccerFirst on Oct 25, 2020 10:00:15 GMT -5
This is different from the original poster’s question regarding unrostered players. The players your describing are legally rostered or dual rostered. I agree that some clubs might take advantage of this rule, HOWEVER the rule is in place to help with player development. If the clubs/teams are making these roster decisions to give the number 18 player on an ECNL roster game minutes on the clubs 2nd team, then I think most people would agree with that circumstance. Another reason this might happen, a club only has 13 kids for a roster and needs 15-16 so the club rosters a couple players lower so they can help out the lower level team and player pass to their team. It’s the clubs that dual roster or drop roster the best players so they can help teams across the age group that people should have a problem with. Unfortunately, we are relying on coaches/DOCs to make these roster decisions, and sometimes winning trumps development. I agree with your statement about player #18 (or even 15-18) getting more minutes being acceptable. I also agree that many clubs send their ringers down to win. Honestly I have seen the rich keep getting richer, meaning that the best players seem to get more opportunities playing up age groups, training up and many times playing with lower teams. It is usually not player 18 that is given the minutes. Sometimes that is on the club (they want to win) but sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level. In my utopia all kids would be given the opportunity to play and train with teams at their level, below their level and above their level. Below can build confidence and give an opportunity to try new things in a less stressful environment. At their level, most of the time. Above their level to challenge them to get better and show them where the gap is. “sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level”. Again, this is not the parents’ fault for pushing for their player to get their kid every opportunity the club has to offer, but the club not knowing how to manage that particular family and their expectations. If the player is that good, top 1-3 on ECNL then their only option to pass should be up an age group, not to a lower level. JMO |
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Post by bogan on Oct 25, 2020 10:52:09 GMT -5
I agree with your statement about player #18 (or even 15-18) getting more minutes being acceptable. I also agree that many clubs send their ringers down to win. Honestly I have seen the rich keep getting richer, meaning that the best players seem to get more opportunities playing up age groups, training up and many times playing with lower teams. It is usually not player 18 that is given the minutes. Sometimes that is on the club (they want to win) but sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level. In my utopia all kids would be given the opportunity to play and train with teams at their level, below their level and above their level. Below can build confidence and give an opportunity to try new things in a less stressful environment. At their level, most of the time. Above their level to challenge them to get better and show them where the gap is. “sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level”. Again, this is not the parents’ fault for pushing for their player to get their kid every opportunity the club has to offer, but the club not knowing how to manage that particular family and their expectations. If the player is that good, top 1-3 on ECNL then their only option to pass should be up an age group, not to a lower level. JMO If my son were top 1-3 on an ECNL team, I wouldn’t allow him to play down. What’s the upside? Downside is injury. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 25, 2020 10:56:59 GMT -5
I agree with your statement about player #18 (or even 15-18) getting more minutes being acceptable. I also agree that many clubs send their ringers down to win. Honestly I have seen the rich keep getting richer, meaning that the best players seem to get more opportunities playing up age groups, training up and many times playing with lower teams. It is usually not player 18 that is given the minutes. Sometimes that is on the club (they want to win) but sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level. In my utopia all kids would be given the opportunity to play and train with teams at their level, below their level and above their level. Below can build confidence and give an opportunity to try new things in a less stressful environment. At their level, most of the time. Above their level to challenge them to get better and show them where the gap is. “sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level”. Again, this is not the parents’ fault for pushing for their player to get their kid every opportunity the club has to offer, but the club not knowing how to manage that particular family and their expectations. If the player is that good, top 1-3 on ECNL then their only option to pass should be up an age group, not to a lower level. JMO Agreed. Parents should be advocates for their players, but the club needs to manage it. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 25, 2020 10:58:38 GMT -5
“sometimes it is due to the top player's parent(s) pushing for more time. Sometimes they just want their kid on the field all of the time regardless of level”. Again, this is not the parents’ fault for pushing for their player to get their kid every opportunity the club has to offer, but the club not knowing how to manage that particular family and their expectations. If the player is that good, top 1-3 on ECNL then their only option to pass should be up an age group, not to a lower level. JMO If my son were top 1-3 on an ECNL team, I wouldn’t allow him to play down. What’s the upside? Downside is injury. You would be surprised. Some people don't want to play down, but some just want them on the field regardless. I know people with both philosophies |
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Post by datrain on Oct 25, 2020 11:15:30 GMT -5
If #18 on ECNL needs to play SCCL Premier to get minutes, maybe #18 shouldn’t be on ECNL in the first place. Roster him down and player pass him up
Bottom line, I have already seen one forfeit already this year for this nonsense in my older son’s league. I think we may be looking at a second forfeit with a different program in my younger son’s league.
In my opinion, coaches and programs should be held accountable. A forfeit is insufficient. If you are a coach who gets busted for this, you deserve having your license suspended. It is not so difficult to play within the rules
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Post by bogan on Oct 25, 2020 11:19:56 GMT -5
Datrain said “ In my opinion, coaches and programs should be held accountable. A forfeit is insufficient. If you are a coach who gets busted for this, you deserve having your license suspended. It is not so difficult to play within the rules”
I’ve been saying this for years but it’s always been met with some version of “if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying” or “don’t hate the player, hate the game...”
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Post by datrain on Oct 25, 2020 11:26:01 GMT -5
Seriously, is it so hard to suspend the few that do this?
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Post by bogan on Oct 25, 2020 11:31:27 GMT -5
Seriously, is it so hard to suspend the few that do this? I would suggest a monetary fine, first-both for the club and coach-that would get their attention. But who would the governing body be? Unfortunately it’s the Wild West... |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Oct 25, 2020 12:04:15 GMT -5
If #18 on ECNL needs to play SCCL Premier to get minutes, maybe #18 shouldn’t be on ECNL in the first place. Roster him down and player pass him up Bottom line, I have already seen one forfeit already this year for this nonsense in my older son’s league. I think we may be looking at a second forfeit with a different program in my younger son’s league. In my opinion, coaches and programs should be held accountable. A forfeit is insufficient. If you are a coach who gets busted for this, you deserve having your license suspended. It is not so difficult to play within the rules I agree about the #18 on ECNL. Here is the deal. Some clubs roster too many players to the top team because they want to keep the player at the club. If you offer them a roster spot to the team below and "promise" to player pass them up it often does not happen. Or the player says "no thanks" and goes somewhere else to be on a top team. Personally I like rosters of 15 or 16. I can forgive teams for bigger rosters this year though given the uncertainty with covid and concerns about possible absences. So this year I would give people some slack for a dual rostered player. It should not be a regular thing though. It is not fair to anyone on the pitch. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 25, 2020 15:28:53 GMT -5
I understand about more game time. IMO, over a 5-month season (August-December) players should get 25-30 games. As it is, my kid's team is only playing in a disappoimting 17 total games this fall. I'm looking for any tournament guest playing opportunities I can find for November at the moment.
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Post by soccernoleuk on Oct 25, 2020 16:27:16 GMT -5
I understand about more game time. IMO, over a 5-month season (August-December) players should get 25-30 games. As it is, my kid's team is only playing in a disappoimting 17 total games this fall. I'm looking for any tournament guest playing opportunities I can find for November at the moment. I am with you 100% on this. We will end up playing in 22 games this season, only because I pushed for a second pre-season tournament and a second post-season tournament. Otherwise we were stuck with the 10 game league schedule and 2 tournaments (16-18 games). Fortunately (maybe unfortunately) we are still U14 so we have a spring season. I'm sure I will have to fight for extra games there as well, otherwise we will be stuck with the light game schedule. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Oct 26, 2020 9:09:29 GMT -5
Maybe 22-30 is a better number. I'm still fighting to get a team together a combined team to play in the UFA tournament, but the application deadline is today, so very little hope. Will see if ODP makes good on the friendlies. It shouldn't be this difficult...
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