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Post by atv on Jan 30, 2021 11:43:49 GMT -5
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Post by mistergrinch on Jan 30, 2021 13:24:43 GMT -5
Its such a small percentage of the population.. there's just not enough to move the needle. I'm sure in the occasions where it comes up, it will be problematic..but it just won't be a common thing.
Tempest in a teapot.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 30, 2021 15:00:47 GMT -5
I used to be more worried about this until I read of some studies where they analyzed track athletes before and after the change. It is amazing what dropping the testosterone level does to their performance. There is more of a performance advantage to intersex individuals that identify as females that naturally produce more testosterone than there is from an athlete that was born as a male and transitions to a female. Either way there are small numbers of these people and I support all athletes that want to compete whatever their situations. I do understand why people worry, but I think the more the science comes out the more people will realize there is not a huge competitive advantage |
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Post by soccerspin on Jan 30, 2021 17:41:49 GMT -5
I used to be more worried about this until I read of some studies where they analyzed track athletes before and after the change. It is amazing what dropping the testosterone level does to their performance. There is more of a performance advantage to intersex individuals that identify as females that naturally produce more testosterone than there is from an athlete that was born as a male and transitions to a female. Either way there are small numbers of these people and I support all athletes that want to compete whatever their situations. I do understand why people worry, but I think the more the science comes out the more people will realize there is not a huge competitive advantage Do all of them transition (medically) or can some just identify and not transition? chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/06/13/transgender-track-athletes-win-connecticut-state-championship-debate-ensues/Even if small in numbers, I feel terrible for those women athletes who are losing to transgender athletes. It’s not right. And honestly it seems like this helps lay the groundwork for the argument to not have gender-specific sports at all. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 30, 2021 19:03:07 GMT -5
I used to be more worried about this until I read of some studies where they analyzed track athletes before and after the change. It is amazing what dropping the testosterone level does to their performance. There is more of a performance advantage to intersex individuals that identify as females that naturally produce more testosterone than there is from an athlete that was born as a male and transitions to a female. Either way there are small numbers of these people and I support all athletes that want to compete whatever their situations. I do understand why people worry, but I think the more the science comes out the more people will realize there is not a huge competitive advantage Do all of them transition (medically) or can some just identify and not transition? chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/06/13/transgender-track-athletes-win-connecticut-state-championship-debate-ensues/Even if small in numbers, I feel terrible for those women athletes who are losing to transgender athletes. It’s not right. And honestly it seems like this helps lay the groundwork for the argument to not have gender-specific sports at all. I understand your position. 12.66 is not a state champion speed that a girl can't beat. ga.milesplit.com/meets/346234-ghsa-state-championships-1a-public-3a-and-4a-2019/results/653087/raw#.XwSKhihKhhE |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 30, 2021 21:33:04 GMT -5
But in that state on that day...it was.
And then there's the debate about whether they should have to be on hormone therapy.
IMO it's simply not fair to biological women. The fact that biological males are so successful in women's sports proves its not fair.
I'll oppose it tooth and nail.
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Post by oldgasoccer on Jan 30, 2021 21:53:44 GMT -5
Yeah....things like this are not a big deal....https://youtu.be/kqRJkNIwW-A
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Post by oraclesfriend on Jan 31, 2021 12:13:55 GMT -5
But in that state on that day...it was. And then there's the debate about whether they should have to be on hormone therapy. IMO it's simply not fair to biological women. The fact that biological males are so successful in women's sports proves its not fair. I'll oppose it tooth and nail. Well IMO I think they should be on hormone therapy if they want to play with the women/girls. The problem with that is that there are places that forbid it until 18 so an issue for the high school age. BUT given that there is a rule in IOC and college competitions regarding many drugs that are against the rules and certain levels of acceptable testosterone in women (this has been debated due to the intersex people) a rule on acceptable levels for "fair" competition should be in place. After all if there are rules about cold medicines there should not be a big fight about hormones. The whole issue is a slippery slope though. What certain people think is fair or not. There will always be people on different sides of that argument. As for the handball player I have seen a number of 6'3" women who were very muscular in my dealings with collegiate athletes. She is huge but not alone amongst women. |
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Post by lsagoalie on Jan 31, 2021 13:19:42 GMT -5
But in that state on that day...it was. And then there's the debate about whether they should have to be on hormone therapy. IMO it's simply not fair to biological women. The fact that biological males are so successful in women's sports proves its not fair. I'll oppose it tooth and nail. Totally agree and this is a no brainer. If you are biologically a male you can not compete in a women’s sport. I don’t care if you psychologically want to be a women. The physical muscle build and testosterone levels are too much of an advantage |
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Post by soccerloafer on Jan 31, 2021 15:15:29 GMT -5
I posted during or shortly after the last WWC that the players should enjoy it because in the next cycle they would all be replaced by 2nd tier male players who decided to identify as women. Looks like we're one step closer. It's like I have a crystal ball.
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Post by soccerloafer on Jan 31, 2021 15:17:04 GMT -5
But in that state on that day...it was. And then there's the debate about whether they should have to be on hormone therapy. IMO it's simply not fair to biological women. The fact that biological males are so successful in women's sports proves its not fair. I'll oppose it tooth and nail. Totally agree and this is a no brainer. If you are biologically a male you can not compete in a women’s sport. I don’t care if you psychologically want to be a women. The physical muscle build and testosterone levels are too much of an advantage It's not just the current testosterone level, it's the levels that were present growing up while muscles and bone structure were being developed. Time for a third division for those who are confused about what parts they were born with. |
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Post by bogan on Jan 31, 2021 17:59:47 GMT -5
I posted during or shortly after the last WWC that the players should enjoy it because in the next cycle they would all be replaced by 2nd tier male players who decided to identify as women. Looks like we're one step closer. It's like I have a crystal ball. So you are saying I may have a chance to play in a WWC then?🤔 Ok-call me boganiesha...😬 |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jan 31, 2021 21:47:49 GMT -5
I am for the concept of a unisex 3rd tier. For men that can't make 1st tier, gender-change/neutral players and women who want to test their metul against men.
But males shouldn't be allowed to dominate women's sports, which in almost every instance I've seen of male-to-female trans athletes competing against women, they do.
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Post by mistergrinch on Feb 1, 2021 10:53:45 GMT -5
The percentage of transgender people currently is estimated at about 0.58% of the population. Now figure how many are participating in sports.. it will be a significantly smaller number - likely dropping down into the .1% area based on normal sports participation.
You have a roughly 4% chance of being struck by lightning in your lifetime.
So .. there's that.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Feb 1, 2021 11:43:23 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that lightning stat is off by a couple magnitudes.
Of course its not a big concern...unless you're on the losing side of that event. I'm all for them competing in their own category. Genetics should define this sort of categorization, not feels or intellectual debates.
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Post by bogan on Feb 1, 2021 11:54:02 GMT -5
I can hear it now...
“Hello folks and welcome to the 20xx Olympics. Athletes competing in the 300 nanograms /deciliter of Testosterone 100 M (F/K/A men’s) hurdles are just walking up to the starting blocks...”
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Post by mistergrinch on Feb 1, 2021 12:26:52 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that lightning stat is off by a couple magnitudes. yeah - my math is wonky today.. it's 1 in 15000.. about the same as running into a transgender athlete.
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Post by mightydawg on Feb 1, 2021 15:20:45 GMT -5
The NCAA requirements on transgender athletes are very specific and do not provide much room for abusing the system. (https://www.smith.edu/admission/studygroup/docs/NCAA-Policy-on-Transgender-Student.pdf)
The recent concern about transgender athletes has more to do with the wording of Biden's Executive Order on Preventing and Combating Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation. In particular, the language used in the Order is "Children should be able to learn without worrying about whether they will be denied access to the restroom, the locker room, or school sports." The Order further required the head of each federal agency to review any existing standards that are or may be inconsistent with the policy set forth above. The devil will be in the details of administrative rule changes.
The questions that arise from the wording of the order as applied to school sports are (1) whether this will wipe out the NCAAs very detailed requirements to participate as a sex other than birth gender; (2) whether a boy (or parent) can simply claim that the boy identifies as a girl to participate in and receive a scholarship in a women's sport. Take soccer for instance. They are many more scholarship opportunities for women in soccer than there are for men.
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Post by mistergrinch on Feb 1, 2021 15:34:58 GMT -5
simply claim that the boy identifies as a girl to participate in and receive a scholarship in a women's sport. I think the chances of this happening are near zero.
You are essentially describing the premise of the not-terribly-funny movie 'soul man'.. except that was based on race.
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Post by mightydawg on Feb 1, 2021 15:42:08 GMT -5
simply claim that the boy identifies as a girl to participate in and receive a scholarship in a women's sport. I think the chances of this happening are near zero.
You are essentially describing the premise of the not-terribly-funny movie 'soul man'.. except that was based on race.
I am not describing or predicting anything. I was just framing the debate into the competing interests of the NCAA and the Executive Order and why this has suddenly become a point of discussion. But we have real life examples of people doing this to advance their career--Elizabeth Warren claiming indian ancestry. Rachel Dolezal who posed as a black woman and was running an NAACP branch are two examples that come to mind. The one thing that people have shown is that if you leave a loophole, they will use it to their advantage. |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Feb 1, 2021 16:00:15 GMT -5
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Post by footyfan on Feb 2, 2021 6:02:05 GMT -5
When do we think women will earn enough in sport for it to make sense for a man to transition to being a woman for $$?
That will be a great day.
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Post by mistergrinch on Feb 2, 2021 10:14:01 GMT -5
When do we think women will earn enough in sport for it to make sense for a man to transition to being a woman for $$? That will be a great day. It’s a business. If they are not bringing in the top level $$$ the rest does not matter. ..and the likelihood of women's soccer/basketball/etc bringing in more money than men is unlikely. So.. chasing money isn't a good argument either. |
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Post by mightydawg on Feb 2, 2021 10:26:14 GMT -5
Like a framed the debate above, the motivation is simple....scholarships. It is not a problem at the moment because of strict NCAA rules that require a medical diagnosis and over a year of hormone therapy for a man to compete as a woman.
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Post by oraclesfriend on Feb 2, 2021 11:58:14 GMT -5
Like a framed the debate above, the motivation is simple....scholarships. It is not a problem at the moment because of strict NCAA rules that require a medical diagnosis and over a year of hormone therapy for a man to compete as a woman. The current NCAA rule is science based. The question remains how things will be going forward |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Feb 2, 2021 12:11:47 GMT -5
I've kind of always wonder this:
similar to how women are allowed to play on male college teams -- see recent vandy kicker.
What would happen if a male tried to play on a womens soccer team at lets say an SEC school that doesn't have men soccer. I'm not even talking transgender.
Just equal opportunity for a male to play on a team where there is no mens team.
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Post by mistergrinch on Feb 2, 2021 17:41:58 GMT -5
I've kind of always wonder this: similar to how women are allowed to play on male college teams -- see recent vandy kicker. What would happen if a male tried to play on a womens soccer team at lets say an SEC school that doesn't have men soccer. I'm not even talking transgender. Just equal opportunity for a male to play on a team where there is no mens team. Title IX would be the issue there. |
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Post by Soccerhouse on Feb 3, 2021 11:32:43 GMT -5
here is an interesting website with the rules by state for high school. www.transathlete.com/k-12from Georgia: Georgia - discriminatory The Georgia High School Association (GHSA) bylaw 1.47 states GHSA will allow each school to make determinations on gender, but the website's official statement of interpretation of the rule states: "Interpretation of Gender Designation INTERPRETATION OF BY-LAW 1.47 GHSA By-law 1.47 reads as follows: “Girls may participate on boys’ teams when there is no girls’ team offered in that sport by the school. Boys are not allowed to play on girls’ teams even when there is no corresponding boys’ sport. (NOTE: Cheerleading is a coed sport.) INTERPRETATION: A student’s gender is determined by the gender noted on his/her birth certicate (sic). 1.47 A student’s gender is determined as follows: (a) Girls may participate on boys’ teams when there is no girls’ team offered in that sport or activity by the school. Boys may not participate on girls’ teams even when there is no corresponding boys’ sport or activity. Cheerleading is a coed sport. (b) The GHSA will honor a gender determination made by a member school. The GHSA will not make gender identity determinations nor entertain appeals of the member school’s determination. (c) The GHSA will attempt to accommodate requests for private restroom or locker/dressing room facilities for students requesting the same at GHSA playoff events or contests provided notice of the request is made as soon as possible to the GHSA office. No student shall be required to utilize the private facilities. link to ncaa policy - www.transathlete.com/policies-collegeand the handbook was created back in 2011 13248aea-16f8-fc0a-cf26-a9339dd2a3f0.filesusr.com/ugd/2bc3fc_44693cb5d779311cabc005d959e9486d.pdf |
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Post by atlfutboldad on Feb 3, 2021 11:44:57 GMT -5
This issue should be simple. Mens/boys sports are typically open to males, females, and everyone in between. Girls/womens sports are available to biological women only as it is universally considered a "lower" level physically as biology has gifted them differently than males. No amount of surgery or hormones at this point can bridge the gap to make your body as though it was born the opposite sex.
Perhaps in some sci-fi future we will be able to clone opposite-sex bodies and transfer consciousness between your birth body and your chosen gender body.
Frankly, I'd like to see some women attempt to move up into the more difficult/mens games where possible. We're seeing it in refereeing, which is good.
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Post by soccerloafer on Feb 3, 2021 14:32:56 GMT -5
"Frankly, I'd like to see some women attempt to move up into the more difficult/mens games where possible. We're seeing it in refereeing, which is good."
Personally, I'd like to see the highest level games, of any gender, refereed by the best available referee, regardless of gender. Limiting high level women's games to only female referees does a disservice to the players. The players are the best, they deserve the best. The officiating in the last WWC was atrocious.
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