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Post by rifle on Jul 30, 2021 17:51:45 GMT -5
On offsides … I have a strong personal belief Youth Soccer Referees get it wrong 50-percent of the time. The close ones are almost impossible to call and IMO should only be called when clearly obvious. Do you render this judgment from a lawn chair near midfield? |
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Post by atv on Jul 30, 2021 18:23:20 GMT -5
On offsides … I have a strong personal belief Youth Soccer Referees get it wrong 50-percent of the time. The close ones are almost impossible to call and IMO should only be called when clearly obvious. Do you render this judgment from a lawn chair near midfield? Man, I’ve stood right behind the line judge and let’s not forget nearly every game is videotaped. The obvious ones everyone can see and are normally correct but the close ones are habitually a coin flip. I get it, your probably reffing games (based on your response) and your probably pretty good at it. … so no offense . However, IMO overall, there is no consistency. |
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Post by paterfamilias on Jul 30, 2021 19:54:14 GMT -5
It's "offside" law 11
Ask Ted Lasso
Offsides is a different game
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Post by rifle on Jul 30, 2021 20:43:30 GMT -5
Do you render this judgment from a lawn chair near midfield? Man, I’ve stood right behind the line judge and let’s not forget nearly every game is videotaped. The obvious ones everyone can see and are normally correct but the close ones are habitually a coin flip. I get it, your probably reffing games (based on your response) and your probably pretty good at it. … so no offense . However, IMO overall, there is no consistency. I’m not that good at it but I feign confidence and that gets it done on close calls. You have to make a decision that half the field won’t like.. and then live with it. |
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Post by 0507coop23dad on Jul 30, 2021 20:56:46 GMT -5
The easiest way to call it is that if it ends in a goal then it’s definitely offside! Hahahahaha!
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Post by soccerloafer on Jul 30, 2021 21:58:53 GMT -5
Probably not a fully proper answer, but I apply the spirit of the game to my offside calls. Was there intent, clear advantage, and would a flag be good for the game?
If it's a great build up but the 6th pass to a breaking striker finds them 1/4 step ahead of a defender (who is facing the wrong way), do you call it? LOTG says yes. Spirit of the game says no. Was the striker seeking an intentional advantage or just off time a bit? Without the 1/4 step would the defender have made a play? Let them play.
Now if the same striker has been hanging 5 yards offside all game and seeking advantage from a deep position, they're getting the flag.
I say use a center of mass rule - was the bulk of the attacker past the bulk of the last defender? Not one arm ahead of the defenders leg, etc. Was it enough of a difference in position to make a difference?
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Post by 0507coop23dad on Jul 31, 2021 6:59:20 GMT -5
Probably not a fully proper answer, but I apply the spirit of the game to my offside calls. Was there intent, clear advantage, and would a flag be good for the game? If it's a great build up but the 6th pass to a breaking striker finds them 1/4 step ahead of a defender (who is facing the wrong way), do you call it? LOTG says yes. Spirit of the game says no. Was the striker seeking an intentional advantage or just off time a bit? Without the 1/4 step would the defender have made a play? Let them play. Now if the same striker has been hanging 5 yards offside all game and seeking advantage from a deep position, they're getting the flag. I say use a center of mass rule - was the bulk of the attacker past the bulk of the last defender? Not one arm ahead of the defenders leg, etc. Was it enough of a difference in position to make a difference? YES! The defender will always make the play! That should be your baseline! That’s why offside goals always look like offside goals and you hear it from coaches, players, & parents. I really can’t believe what I’m reading from you. Floored. |
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Post by fanatic21 on Jul 31, 2021 7:09:51 GMT -5
Probably not a fully proper answer, but I apply the spirit of the game to my offside calls. Was there intent, clear advantage, and would a flag be good for the game? If it's a great build up but the 6th pass to a breaking striker finds them 1/4 step ahead of a defender (who is facing the wrong way), do you call it? LOTG says yes. Spirit of the game says no. Was the striker seeking an intentional advantage or just off time a bit? Without the 1/4 step would the defender have made a play? Let them play. Now if the same striker has been hanging 5 yards offside all game and seeking advantage from a deep position, they're getting the flag. I say use a center of mass rule - was the bulk of the attacker past the bulk of the last defender? Not one arm ahead of the defenders leg, etc. Was it enough of a difference in position to make a difference? I hope you aren’t a ref. You can’t just make up rules or interpret rules to suit how you’d like the game to be called. |
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Post by atv on Jul 31, 2021 12:02:04 GMT -5
In a game that is so low scoring, no other call, in this sport or any other effects the outcome of a game more than the offsides call. As VAR has demonstrated, the close ones are impossible to get right with the naked eye. At the highest level it will get called wrong and it exponentially becomes more inaccurate at lower levels. In youth soccer well ….
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Post by soccerloafer on Jul 31, 2021 12:22:51 GMT -5
Probably not a fully proper answer, but I apply the spirit of the game to my offside calls. Was there intent, clear advantage, and would a flag be good for the game? If it's a great build up but the 6th pass to a breaking striker finds them 1/4 step ahead of a defender (who is facing the wrong way), do you call it? LOTG says yes. Spirit of the game says no. Was the striker seeking an intentional advantage or just off time a bit? Without the 1/4 step would the defender have made a play? Let them play. Now if the same striker has been hanging 5 yards offside all game and seeking advantage from a deep position, they're getting the flag. I say use a center of mass rule - was the bulk of the attacker past the bulk of the last defender? Not one arm ahead of the defenders leg, etc. Was it enough of a difference in position to make a difference? I hope you aren’t a ref. You can’t just make up rules or interpret rules to suit how you’d like the game to be called. Actually you can. The PRO refs do it all the time. It's called spirit of the game. |
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Post by fanatic21 on Jul 31, 2021 12:33:47 GMT -5
I hope you aren’t a ref. You can’t just make up rules or interpret rules to suit how you’d like the game to be called. Actually you can. The PRO refs do it all the time. It's called spirit of the game. Sorry, my friend, but you definitely can’t decide not to call offside because there’s a nice build up and the attacker didn’t mean to be barely offside. If that’s what you think a referee interpretation of the laws based on the spirit of the game is, you are sorely mistaken. |
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Post by fanatic21 on Jul 31, 2021 12:55:29 GMT -5
On offsides … I have a strong personal belief Youth Soccer Referees get it wrong 50-percent of the time. The close ones are almost impossible to call and IMO should only be called when clearly obvious. Agree that the close offside calls can be tough, especially on timed runs; however, I’m convinced that spectators and coaches and even players (even knowledgeable ones) get offside wrong much more often than even youth referees do. One reason for this is that spectators and coaches typically watch the play, not the offside line. By the time the ball is played and spectators and coaches turn their head to look, whether or not a player is in an offside position or not may have changed, even in just a split second. A good AR stays focused on the positioning of the 2nd to last defender (or the ball if it’s beyond defenders) and tells himself the entire time who is in an offside position, and when the ball is played, he already knows if a player was off or not at that exact second, not a split second later. And as another poster alluded to, anyone who thinks they can tell offside when they aren’t in line with the second to last defender clearly knows very little about offside and probably about reffing in general. Most parents and coaches who shout about offside watch the play (not the offside line) and aren’t in the correct position, so they can be completely wrong even on one that looks obvious to them. |
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Post by soccerloafer on Jul 31, 2021 14:21:59 GMT -5
One reason for this is that spectators and coaches typically watch the play, not the offside line.
So do most ARs, unfortunately. That's why many well time runs are flagged, the AR was ball watching, sees the ball land at the feet of an attacker 3 yards past the line of defenders, and assumes they must have been offside.
The proper technique is to watch the line of play and LISTEN for the ball to be struck. Hard in crowded stadiums for sure, but pretty easy at youth matches.
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Post by rifle on Jul 31, 2021 16:22:48 GMT -5
Make sure to verbally abuse and criticize the properly positioned 13yo referee’s assistant working youth games. That’s a great way to make sure you have better referees next season. That was sarcasm.
After working as a ref, I only would criticize one thing from a ref: being miles out of position and not paying attention.
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Post by atv on Jul 31, 2021 17:04:13 GMT -5
Not the refs fault, they’re doing the best they can and probably get most of the obvious ones right. However, I have often thought, there is an opportunity to do a study here and apply some real statistics to it that would support changing the rule. This may help the ref make the correct call a higher percentage of the time and the game would of course benefit. For example, (someone mentioned) change the rule where the players entire body is past the defense. Anyway, we are probably wearing this one out.
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Jul 31, 2021 22:21:21 GMT -5
On this thread you can really tell who refs games and who does not.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Jul 31, 2021 22:37:48 GMT -5
Agreed with atv, its a fast moving game and there's a lot to watch for as an AR. You can watch the 2nd to last defender or the ball, but not both. So it's tough to know when the ball was struck (or who intentionally played it last) when watching the defender. Even when it looks clear offside/not offside, if you go back and watch tape, it's still often a 50/50 call.
That said, I've certainly seen some bad ones. Especially when both attacking players are on their own side of the field when the ball was played into the opponents half.
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Post by bolo on Jul 31, 2021 22:39:59 GMT -5
Make sure to verbally abuse and criticize the properly positioned 13yo referee’s assistant working youth games. That’s a great way to make sure you have better referees next season. That was sarcasm. After working as a ref, I only would criticize one thing from a ref: being miles out of position and not paying attention. You kind of joke about it, but watching any decently high-level youth game, you see AR’s- especially younger ones- well out of position in terms of being able to make an accurate offside call pretty frequently throughout a game. And that’s not counting the ones that are too lazy or disinterested to actually move with the back line of the defense like they should. Super frustrating as a parent to actually pay more attention to it than the people that are charged and paid to do it. |
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Post by rifle on Aug 1, 2021 6:40:22 GMT -5
Make sure to verbally abuse and criticize the properly positioned 13yo referee’s assistant working youth games. That’s a great way to make sure you have better referees next season. That was sarcasm. After working as a ref, I only would criticize one thing from a ref: being miles out of position and not paying attention. You kind of joke about it, but watching any decently high-level youth game, you see AR’s- especially younger ones- well out of position in terms of being able to make an accurate offside call pretty frequently throughout a game. And that’s not counting the ones that are too lazy or disinterested to actually move with the back line of the defense like they should. Super frustrating as a parent to actually pay more attention to it than the people that are charged and paid to do it. Agreed |
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Post by rifle on Aug 1, 2021 7:11:20 GMT -5
Agreed with atv, its a fast moving game and there's a lot to watch for as an AR. You can watch the 2nd to last defender or the ball, but not both. So it's tough to know when the ball was struck (or who intentionally played it last) when watching the defender. Even when it looks clear offside/not offside, if you go back and watch tape, it's still often a 50/50 call. That said, I've certainly seen some bad ones. Especially when both attacking players are on their own side of the field when the ball was played into the opponents half. The worst I’ve seen was your last example and a kid was whistled offside… and the long ball happened to be a goal kick… that ref apologized to my kid’s coach the following weekend. Clearly rattled by the realization of what happened. In my experience (as a ref) it is especially hard for an AR when the ball is AT the “near” sideline (literally right in front of you) and players are pushing and hacking at each other. You’ve got to watch the 2nd last defender (across the field) to see if the attacking player is behind that defender.. while watching the ball closely for in/out of bounds as well as keeping track of “last touch” (for possession) AND helping the center “see” things like elbows that are thrown knowing the CR can’t see them. By constantly changing your focus to see the positioning in the middle or across the field without missing anything up close.. is why a 3 person crew is necessary. …I guess that’s why VAR can be so frustrating - when decisions are STILL questionable after stopping or slowing 30 frames per second video. It is a bit if a no win situation. |
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Aug 1, 2021 11:22:22 GMT -5
Agreed with atv, its a fast moving game and there's a lot to watch for as an AR. You can watch the 2nd to last defender or the ball, but not both. So it's tough to know when the ball was struck (or who intentionally played it last) when watching the defender. Even when it looks clear offside/not offside, if you go back and watch tape, it's still often a 50/50 call. That said, I've certainly seen some bad ones. Especially when both attacking players are on their own side of the field when the ball was played into the opponents half. The worst I’ve seen was your last example and a kid was whistled offside… and the long ball happened to be a goal kick… that ref apologized to my kid’s coach the following weekend. Clearly rattled by the realization of what happened. In my experience (as a ref) it is especially hard for an AR when the ball is AT the “near” sideline (literally right in front of you) and players are pushing and hacking at each other. You’ve got to watch the 2nd last defender (across the field) to see if the attacking player is behind that defender.. while watching the ball closely for in/out of bounds as well as keeping track of “last touch” (for possession) AND helping the center “see” things like elbows that are thrown knowing the CR can’t see them. By constantly changing your focus to see the positioning in the middle or across the field without missing anything up close.. is why a 3 person crew is necessary. …I guess that’s why VAR can be so frustrating - when decisions are STILL questionable after stopping or slowing 30 frames per second video. It is a bit if a no win situation. For me, the thing to remember is that the 14 year old AR is the same as the 14 year old center back... they are learning and will most assuredly get things wrong at times. Yes, they are getting paid, and they need to be paying attention, but it is all part of the development of kids. |
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Post by soccerloafer on Aug 1, 2021 17:36:25 GMT -5
Make sure to verbally abuse and criticize the properly positioned 13yo referee’s assistant working youth games. That’s a great way to make sure you have better referees next season. That was sarcasm. After working as a ref, I only would criticize one thing from a ref: being miles out of position and not paying attention. You kind of joke about it, but watching any decently high-level youth game, you see AR’s- especially younger ones- well out of position in terms of being able to make an accurate offside call pretty frequently throughout a game. And that’s not counting the ones that are too lazy or disinterested to actually move with the back line of the defense like they should. Super frustrating as a parent to actually pay more attention to it than the people that are charged and paid to do it. "Super frustrating as a parent to actually pay more attention to it than the people that are charged and paid to do it" The problem is that there are so few referees, bookers assign 5-6 games a day. It is damn near impossible for anyone, even well intended, to hold their focus for that many games. Most younger folks also don't hydrate well enough or take in enough calories during the day to stay in good mental or physical shape. I refuse to do more than 3 games a day. For younger refs, or folks who need the money, it's hard to say no. |
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