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Post by slickdaddy96 on Oct 6, 2021 13:02:19 GMT -5
Saying it and doing it is two different things. Otherwise there would be a way to file complaints against bad Refs to find ways to re-educate and improve them. You can file complaints against players and coaches and admins, and have them suspended or take extra education. But Refs not a thing except some minimal recert course that most Refs don’t even read the rules changes on. Instead GaSoccer and now SCCL do not care how bad or out of control games get as long as there’s some kind of Ref and the game is made official. ($$$$) I agree - especially the comment above about young refs. They literally call nothing most of the game, the game starts to get out of hand, then he/she makes some random foul call when the same stuff has been going on all game. And then that late foul call impacts the results on the field. I have always allowed aggressive play. If both players are going for the ball with some shoulder bumping etc.... I'm going to let it play even if what I see what could technically be a foul by either of them. I will call any blatant foul and any excessive foul. I also a let a lot of advantage play out instead of whistling play stopped. I agree with you that a lot of younger referees do let a lot of stuff go that I would personally call, and if I AR I tend to call a lot more fouls as an AR when a younger teenager is centering because they aren't calling as much. My son lets about as much as I do go (and he plays and hates when tick tacky stuff slows the game down). Others just don't call it because they are intimidated of their whistle or being yelled at by the sideline referees (parents) if they make a bad call. Another issue though is that the parents half the time don't know what a foul is and is not. I used to be in that boat when my kids were younger as well, but after my son becoming a referee and then me as well, what you may see on the sideline is not what I see standing 10-25 yards from the "supposed foul". In reality parents just need to shut up and let the referees call a game. If there is a safety issue or a problem with fouls not being called let the Coach address it with the official. Then you might actually get some referees most of the time that call a game well. Until then you are going to continue to have lack of referees because no one wants to submit themselves to that type of abuse except ones with thick skin or have no issues clearing a sideline if need be (like myself). |
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Post by rifle on Oct 6, 2021 17:58:30 GMT -5
Clubs could take the lead on policing bad parent behavior. Why don’t they?
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Post by olderthandirt on Oct 6, 2021 19:27:05 GMT -5
Many years ago, a club that I was associated with had adult field marshals at every field for a year. It was their job to monitor the spectators’ behavior during matches. For the most part, just having them around and visible was enough to cut down on the parent issues. When a situation escalated beyond a conversation, the field marshals spoke with the team coach and asked them to settle down the parent. If that didn’t work and it was a parent of a child at the home club, that child was removed from the game until the parent was under control. If the parent did not get back under control, the child was suspended from playing until the parent met with the DOC. If the parent was from the opposing team, the punishment was up to that club. It was amazing, however, that when the home parents shut up, the visiting parents dialed it way back as well. Unfortunately, the program only lasted a year due to the lack of people willing to be a field marshal. And now the club is back to being one of those with the worst reputations for parent issues. Go figure.
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Post by rifle on Oct 6, 2021 20:58:09 GMT -5
Many years ago, a club that I was associated with had adult field marshals at every field for a year. It was their job to monitor the spectators’ behavior during matches. For the most part, just having them around and visible was enough to cut down on the parent issues. When a situation escalated beyond a conversation, the field marshals spoke with the team coach and asked them to settle down the parent. If that didn’t work and it was a parent of a child at the home club, that child was removed from the game until the parent was under control. If the parent did not get back under control, the child was suspended from playing until the parent met with the DOC. If the parent was from the opposing team, the punishment was up to that club. It was amazing, however, that when the home parents shut up, the visiting parents dialed it way back as well. Unfortunately, the program only lasted a year due to the lack of people willing to be a field marshal. And now the club is back to being one of those with the worst reputations for parent issues. Go figure. I would bet that was killed by the coaches having to get involved. |
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Post by bogan on Oct 7, 2021 7:15:59 GMT -5
Many years ago, a club that I was associated with had adult field marshals at every field for a year. It was their job to monitor the spectators’ behavior during matches. For the most part, just having them around and visible was enough to cut down on the parent issues. When a situation escalated beyond a conversation, the field marshals spoke with the team coach and asked them to settle down the parent. If that didn’t work and it was a parent of a child at the home club, that child was removed from the game until the parent was under control. If the parent did not get back under control, the child was suspended from playing until the parent met with the DOC. If the parent was from the opposing team, the punishment was up to that club. It was amazing, however, that when the home parents shut up, the visiting parents dialed it way back as well. Unfortunately, the program only lasted a year due to the lack of people willing to be a field marshal. And now the club is back to being one of those with the worst reputations for parent issues. Go figure. I would bet that was killed by the coaches having to get involved. At mine it was killed b/c of lack of interest from the parents/board. Nobody wanted to be the “bad guy.” |
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Post by rifle on Oct 7, 2021 7:37:41 GMT -5
I would bet that was killed by the coaches having to get involved. At mine it was killed b/c of lack of interest from the parents/board. Nobody wanted to be the “bad guy.” Apathy IS a lot easier. |
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Post by bolo on Oct 7, 2021 9:01:18 GMT -5
I agree - especially the comment above about young refs. They literally call nothing most of the game, the game starts to get out of hand, then he/she makes some random foul call when the same stuff has been going on all game. And then that late foul call impacts the results on the field. I have always allowed aggressive play. If both players are going for the ball with some shoulder bumping etc.... I'm going to let it play even if what I see what could technically be a foul by either of them. I will call any blatant foul and any excessive foul. I also a let a lot of advantage play out instead of whistling play stopped. I agree with you that a lot of younger referees do let a lot of stuff go that I would personally call, and if I AR I tend to call a lot more fouls as an AR when a younger teenager is centering because they aren't calling as much. My son lets about as much as I do go (and he plays and hates when tick tacky stuff slows the game down). Others just don't call it because they are intimidated of their whistle or being yelled at by the sideline referees (parents) if they make a bad call. Another issue though is that the parents half the time don't know what a foul is and is not. I used to be in that boat when my kids were younger as well, but after my son becoming a referee and then me as well, what you may see on the sideline is not what I see standing 10-25 yards from the "supposed foul". In reality parents just need to shut up and let the referees call a game. If there is a safety issue or a problem with fouls not being called let the Coach address it with the official. Then you might actually get some referees most of the time that call a game well. Until then you are going to continue to have lack of referees because no one wants to submit themselves to that type of abuse except ones with thick skin or have no issues clearing a sideline if need be (like myself). I am not a ref, just a parent. Here's the issue I have- just because parents yell or disagree with a ref, doesn't mean they're wrong- even though many refs take it that way. Refs are human and make mistakes too, and they should be willing to admit that. They either call fouls that weren't truly fouls or miss fouls that they should have called. They miss handballs, or let some obvious ones go, but then call others that look the exact same. They screw up throw-in and goal kick/corner kick calls. They mess up offside calls (often because of poor positioning or excessive ball-watching by ARs). They don't issue cards when they maybe should and vice-versa. They let games get out of hand with excessive physical play, to the point where players get hurt. And when those things happen, it's only natural that parents- and players & coaches too- are going to get upset. It's human nature, and happens in every sport, at every level, starting from about age 8 up through the professional ranks. Refs are getting paid to do a job, and when spectators think they're not doing it correctly or fairly, they are naturally going to express their disagreement. It's almost a spontaneous reaction, and is often hard to control. If a kid on our team gets taken out by a hard foul, almost every parent is naturally & immediately going to yell "Ohhh!" or "Foul!" or "Come on!". When there's a handball, every fan yells, "Hand!". Again, it's spontaneous & almost uncontrollable. Happens at every level of soccer, all the time. So to act like it would or should be different in a U16 boys game is ridiculous & unrealistic. But with all that in mind, I see too many refs that struggle to handle any criticism or reactions from parents, players, or coaches. They act like everyone other than them has no idea about the rules of soccer, what a foul is & isn't, what constitutes a handball, what is & isn't offside, etc. When the reality is- especially when you get to the older ages- the parents have seen A TON of soccer. Most parents know the rules pretty damn well, whether the almighty refs want to admit it or not. We often have a better view of certain plays than the refs do- especially the ones that stroll around the middle of the field & can't or won't position themselves correctly (and don't pretend that never happens just because it's not the case for the refs on this board). So to act like parents are some mouth breathers who have never watched a soccer game before and can't possibly understand the rules & regulations is laughable and frankly insulting to me. I know reffing is a hard job, and involves a lot of quick decisions, but for refs to act like they're infallible and above any criticism or questioning is just something I cannot get behind. Now, do some parents take it too far- absolutely, and when it's parents on my kids' teams, I'm embarrassed and try to do my best to calm them down & tell them to shut up because it's not going to help the team. But there are some refs that can't even take the mere hint of disagreement from parents and let it get to them far too easily. And I just don't think that's right. |
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Oct 7, 2021 9:37:06 GMT -5
I am not a ref, just a parent. Here's the issue I have- just because parents yell or disagree with a ref, doesn't mean they're wrong- even though many refs take it that way. Refs are human and make mistakes too, and they should be willing to admit that. They either call fouls that weren't truly fouls or miss fouls that they should have called. They miss handballs, or let some obvious ones go, but then call others that look the exact same. They screw up throw-in and goal kick/corner kick calls. They mess up offside calls (often because of poor positioning or excessive ball-watching by ARs). They don't issue cards when they maybe should and vice-versa. They let games get out of hand with excessive physical play, to the point where players get hurt. And when those things happen, it's only natural that parents- and players & coaches too- are going to get upset. It's human nature, and happens in every sport, at every level, starting from about age 8 up through the professional ranks. Refs are getting paid to do a job, and when spectators think they're not doing it correctly or fairly, they are naturally going to express their disagreement. It's almost a spontaneous reaction, and is often hard to control. If a kid on our team gets taken out by a hard foul, almost every parent is naturally & immediately going to yell "Ohhh!" or "Foul!" or "Come on!". When there's a handball, every fan yells, "Hand!". Again, it's spontaneous & almost uncontrollable. Happens at every level of soccer, all the time. So to act like it would or should be different in a U16 boys game is ridiculous & unrealistic. But with all that in mind, I see too many refs that struggle to handle any criticism or reactions from parents, players, or coaches. They act like everyone other than them has no idea about the rules of soccer, what a foul is & isn't, what constitutes a handball, what is & isn't offside, etc. When the reality is- especially when you get to the older ages- the parents have seen A TON of soccer. Most parents know the rules pretty damn well, whether the almighty refs want to admit it or not. We often have a better view of certain plays than the refs do- especially the ones that stroll around the middle of the field & can't or won't position themselves correctly (and don't pretend that never happens just because it's not the case for the refs on this board). So to act like parents are some mouth breathers who have never watched a soccer game before and can't possibly understand the rules & regulations is laughable and frankly insulting to me. I know reffing is a hard job, and involves a lot of quick decisions, but for refs to act like they're infallible and above any criticism or questioning is just something I cannot get behind. Now, do some parents take it too far- absolutely, and when it's parents on my kids' teams, I'm embarrassed and try to do my best to calm them down & tell them to shut up because it's not going to help the team. But there are some refs that can't even take the mere hint of disagreement from parents and let it get to them far too easily. And I just don't think that's right. I was specifically talking about younger referees who are more prone to make mistakes that they are going to get yelled at. Adult referees should be able to handle parents yelling. By the way it is a two way street. Most adult referees have seen plenty of soccer as well either by refereeing and/or also by watching their older kids play for years and years as well. They also have the benefit of knowing and seeing and taking tests on all rules of the game something the parents do not have to do. If I had a $1 for every time a player or parent yelled handball when a ball touches a hand or arm and it not actually by the laws of the game be a handball I would be rich. Every time a ball hits a hand or arm its not a handball and generally I am the closest non-player near that ball when it happens. I have the best seat in the house to see a foul or handball. If I don't call it is because it isn't by the law of the game a handball or it is possible my view was obstructed or hit the kid's hand where I would not see it. In that case hopefully the AR sees it and calls it. If he doesn't it is going to not get called. That isn't a mistake on the referee he can only see so much and can't see around the other side of a player if their arm they can't see touched the ball. The same goes with fouls. Something that looks like a foul from 50-80 yards away from a parent might look like a clean tackle with the player getting the ball first and the other player running into the player. This happens a lot. If I had a $1 for every time I hear a parent yelling on a clean tackle assuming it was a foul I would be rich as well. These things happen in 11v11 older age games as well. So I'm sorry no, most parents don't have a clue about all the nuances of the rules of the game. Do I make mistakes? Of course I do and most times if I catch those mistakes before play starts again I will correct them and even say "my bad". 99% of the time my mistake even if it stands does not affect the outcome of the game. It sounds as if you have a lot of animosity against Referees. I get it. I have been there before my son and I got certified. I used to be one of the yellers on the sideline. Once I started refereeing, I realized how much of a fool I was due to the nuances of the rules, and how much harder it is to actually referee then a parent realizes. |
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Oct 7, 2021 9:50:21 GMT -5
There's a lot to say on the above, but the thing that I can't stop thinking about is the, "well, referees get paid so they should take it when people yell at them."
Imagine screaming bloody murder at a $12/hr teenager bagging your groceries when they put the bananas on top of the bread.
That's how asinine you sound when you yell at a referee.
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Post by bolo on Oct 7, 2021 10:01:06 GMT -5
I am not a ref, just a parent. Here's the issue I have- just because parents yell or disagree with a ref, doesn't mean they're wrong- even though many refs take it that way. Refs are human and make mistakes too, and they should be willing to admit that. They either call fouls that weren't truly fouls or miss fouls that they should have called. They miss handballs, or let some obvious ones go, but then call others that look the exact same. They screw up throw-in and goal kick/corner kick calls. They mess up offside calls (often because of poor positioning or excessive ball-watching by ARs). They don't issue cards when they maybe should and vice-versa. They let games get out of hand with excessive physical play, to the point where players get hurt. And when those things happen, it's only natural that parents- and players & coaches too- are going to get upset. It's human nature, and happens in every sport, at every level, starting from about age 8 up through the professional ranks. Refs are getting paid to do a job, and when spectators think they're not doing it correctly or fairly, they are naturally going to express their disagreement. It's almost a spontaneous reaction, and is often hard to control. If a kid on our team gets taken out by a hard foul, almost every parent is naturally & immediately going to yell "Ohhh!" or "Foul!" or "Come on!". When there's a handball, every fan yells, "Hand!". Again, it's spontaneous & almost uncontrollable. Happens at every level of soccer, all the time. So to act like it would or should be different in a U16 boys game is ridiculous & unrealistic. But with all that in mind, I see too many refs that struggle to handle any criticism or reactions from parents, players, or coaches. They act like everyone other than them has no idea about the rules of soccer, what a foul is & isn't, what constitutes a handball, what is & isn't offside, etc. When the reality is- especially when you get to the older ages- the parents have seen A TON of soccer. Most parents know the rules pretty damn well, whether the almighty refs want to admit it or not. We often have a better view of certain plays than the refs do- especially the ones that stroll around the middle of the field & can't or won't position themselves correctly (and don't pretend that never happens just because it's not the case for the refs on this board). So to act like parents are some mouth breathers who have never watched a soccer game before and can't possibly understand the rules & regulations is laughable and frankly insulting to me. I know reffing is a hard job, and involves a lot of quick decisions, but for refs to act like they're infallible and above any criticism or questioning is just something I cannot get behind. Now, do some parents take it too far- absolutely, and when it's parents on my kids' teams, I'm embarrassed and try to do my best to calm them down & tell them to shut up because it's not going to help the team. But there are some refs that can't even take the mere hint of disagreement from parents and let it get to them far too easily. And I just don't think that's right. I was specifically talking about younger referees who are more prone to make mistakes that they are going to get yelled at. Adult referees should be able to handle parents yelling. By the way it is a two way street. Most adult referees have seen plenty of soccer as well either by refereeing and/or also by watching their older kids play for years and years as well. They also have the benefit of knowing and seeing and taking tests on all rules of the game something the parents do not have to do. If I had a $1 for every time a player or parent yelled handball when a ball touches a hand or arm and it not actually by the laws of the game be a handball I would be rich. Every time a ball hits a hand or arm its not a handball and generally I am the closest non-player near that ball when it happens. I have the best seat in the house to see a foul or handball. If I don't call it is because it isn't by the law of the game a handball or it is possible my view was obstructed or hit the kid's hand where I would not see it. In that case hopefully the AR sees it and calls it. If he doesn't it is going to not get called. That isn't a mistake on the referee he can only see so much and can't see around the other side of a player if their arm they can't see touched the ball. The same goes with fouls. Something that looks like a foul from 50-80 yards away from a parent might look like a clean tackle with the player getting the ball first and the other player running into the player. This happens a lot. If I had a $1 for every time I hear a parent yelling on a clean tackle assuming it was a foul I would be rich as well. These things happen in 11v11 older age games as well. So I'm sorry no, most parents don't have a clue about all the nuances of the rules of the game. Do I make mistakes? Of course I do and most times if I catch those mistakes before play starts again I will correct them and even say "my bad". 99% of the time my mistake even if it stands does not affect the outcome of the game. It sounds as if you have a lot of animosity against Referees. I get it. I have been there before my son and I got certified. I used to be one of the yellers on the sideline. Once I started refereeing, I realized how much of a fool I was due to the nuances of the rules, and how much harder it is to actually referee then a parent realizes. I don't have animosity towards refs in general at all, just the ones who act like they are infallible gods on the field and don't understand why parents would spontaneously call out when they make a mistake. Like I said, it's human nature and very difficult to control. Just like missing calls is something that's going to happen in a fast-paced game like soccer, which you even admit above happens at times, like with handball calls. And yet, when it does happen, you just expect parents to sit there & say nothing about it? Come on back to reality, please. Honestly it sounds like you're the one with animosity here, but towards parents. "Most parents don't have a clue about all the nuances of the rules of the game"? Seriously? I wasn't talking about "nuances", I was talking about blatant misses, like a player on one of my kids' teams getting yanked down by the shoulders (i.e. a horse collar tackle in football) in the box with no call. Or when players are several yards offside but not called as such because the AR is out of position. Or balls getting kicked out of goalie's hands when they're standing up (not cradling the ball on the ground) with no call made? Or a goal that went through a hole in the back of the net being disallowed because the center ref didn't see it- even though his closest AR, both coaches, and every player agreed it went in? These have all happened in my kids' games over the past season & a half. So you really expect parents to just shut up & take those with no complaint or reaction at all? Get real. Just because you yourself would clearly never miss calls like that doesn't mean there aren't dozens of refs that will and do. And then they get pissy when they get called out for it. And in my opinion, parents- many of whom do have a clue, especially about basic rules like...oh, I don't know...a ball going through a hole in the back of the net being a goal- have every right to get upset (to an extent) when erroneous calls like those are made. |
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Post by bogan on Oct 7, 2021 10:01:08 GMT -5
What I’ve learned from this thread:
1. There is a referee shortage
2. The pay is abysmal.
3. Mean people suck
4. Incompetent refs suck
5. There are only perfect refs and perfect parents on this forum.🤣
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Post by bolo on Oct 7, 2021 10:05:18 GMT -5
There's a lot to say on the above, but the thing that I can't stop thinking about is the, "well, referees get paid so they should take it when people yell at them." Imagine screaming bloody murder at a $12/hr teenager bagging your groceries when they put the bananas on top of the bread. That's how asinine you sound when you yell at a referee. I don't like the "screaming bloody murder" aspect of things either, and like I said, I'm embarrassed when parents on our team go that route and I always try to calm them down & stop it. But just spontaneously yelling out when a bad call is made or an obvious call is missed should be expected- it's human nature, especially when it involves a hard foul when a player might get hurt. Definitely don't agree with taking it father than that, but some refs can't even accept that level of "criticism" without freaking out. Have they never seen a soccer game before? |
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Oct 7, 2021 10:07:59 GMT -5
What I’ve learned from this thread: 1. There is a referee shortage 2. The pay is abysmal. 3. Mean people suck 4. Incompetent refs suck 5. There are only perfect refs and perfect parents on this forum.🤣 Every ref I have ever met admits they miss calls. Just not to parents on the sideline screaming at them! (FTR, if I miss less than 3 a game I think I have done a good job). There are definitely incompetent refs. Parents have a right to react to missed calls. But, it does no one any good to be jerks to each other, and it is far more often the parents escalating things than the ref. |
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Post by bolo on Oct 7, 2021 10:41:25 GMT -5
What I’ve learned from this thread: 1. There is a referee shortage 2. The pay is abysmal. 3. Mean people suck 4. Incompetent refs suck 5. There are only perfect refs and perfect parents on this forum.🤣 Every ref I have ever met admits they miss calls. Just not to parents on the sideline screaming at them! (FTR, if I miss less than 3 a game I think I have done a good job). There are definitely incompetent refs. Parents have a right to react to missed calls. But, it does no one any good to be jerks to each other, and it is far more often the parents escalating things than the ref. Agree with this 100%. I try to yell as little as possible, outside of shouting "hand", etc. at obvious times. And I'm one that used to yell a lot- before one of my kids told me it embarrassed them! But I have been- and still am- on teams with some parents that just can't let the bad calls go, and they often end up making an embarrassing scene out of it. I say if you want to spontaneously express your disagreement, have at it, but let it go after that. Because the ref is more likely to hold it against your team than come around to "your side" if you keep riding him excessively. The only caveat to this is when player safety is involved. I remember pointedly letting one ref have it a few years ago when a girl on another team- that had always been very rough & borderline dirty when we had played them in the past- came through a "challenge" against my daughter with just a straight forearm to the throat. She wasn't trying to play the ball, or even looking at it, just plain took my daughter out. And of course, no call, right in front of the ref. I couldn't help myself as my daughter was lying on the ground in tears, and I told the ref (loudly) that he was putting players in danger by letting rough play like that go on. I know he heard me (and the other parents that were losing it too), and hopefully he got where we were coming from, but in the eyes of some of the refs on this board, it sounds like we should have just sat there & never uttered a peep, even as our players were getting hurt over & over with dirty play and no calls. That's the stuff that drives parents really crazy, and should not go unchallenged. Again, there are plenty of great refs that would never let something like that happen (without fouls being called or cards shown), but there are also plenty that in my experience unfortunately let it happen far too often. |
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Oct 7, 2021 10:43:48 GMT -5
What I’ve learned from this thread: 1. There is a referee shortage 2. The pay is abysmal. 3. Mean people suck 4. Incompetent refs suck 5. There are only perfect refs and perfect parents on this forum.🤣 Every ref I have ever met admits they miss calls. Just not to parents on the sideline screaming at them! (FTR, if I miss less than 3 a game I think I have done a good job). There are definitely incompetent refs. Parents have a right to react to missed calls. But, it does no one any good to be jerks to each other, and it is far more often the parents escalating things than the ref. 100% this. Yes even at halftime and after the games the referees will talk to each other. The center may have constructive talk with the ARs on what they can do better, and vice versa. It is part of getting better an challenging yourself to be better at your job. We as referees just hope we don't miss a call or make a bad call that affects the game ultimately. I agree there are incompetent referees. I have worked with some that are just there for a paycheck (teenagers) and don't care about even being good at it. Those referees at least in my experience eventually get weeded out getting fewer and fewer games from the assignor till they quit or they have a come to Jesus meeting with the assignor and get better. I will also say I hear way more inaccurate complaints and yelling from parents about calls than I see mistakes a referee makes and that is even when I'm watching my own kid's game and not refereeing. I tend to be the person on my son's team parent wise that tells the parent, no that was the correct call, etc.... to calm them down. I will say I have gotten to the point that if I see contact that parents might think is a foul or the ball touch the hand but by the law of the game not truly be a handball I will usually yell out "play play" or put my hands out and kind of wave them just a little like an incomplete pass signal in football or if it hits a hand and I'm not going to call it. I will say "no no". It shows the crowd, coach, players that I saw what they saw but deemed it not to be a violation of rules. |
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Oct 7, 2021 11:10:12 GMT -5
Every ref I have ever met admits they miss calls. Just not to parents on the sideline screaming at them! (FTR, if I miss less than 3 a game I think I have done a good job). There are definitely incompetent refs. Parents have a right to react to missed calls. But, it does no one any good to be jerks to each other, and it is far more often the parents escalating things than the ref. Agree with this 100%. I try to yell as little as possible, outside of shouting "hand", etc. at obvious times. And I'm one that used to yell a lot- before one of my kids told me it embarrassed them! But I have been- and still am- on teams with some parents that just can't let the bad calls go, and they often end up making an embarrassing scene out of it. I say if you want to spontaneously express your disagreement, have at it, but let it go after that. Because the ref is more likely to hold it against your team than come around to "your side" if you keep riding him excessively. The only caveat to this is when player safety is involved. I remember pointedly letting one ref have it a few years ago when a girl on another team- that had always been very rough & borderline dirty when we had played them in the past- came through a "challenge" against my daughter with just a straight forearm to the throat. She wasn't trying to play the ball, or even looking at it, just plain took my daughter out. And of course, no call, right in front of the ref. I couldn't help myself as my daughter was lying on the ground in tears, and I told the ref (loudly) that he was putting players in danger by letting rough play like that go on. I know he heard me (and the other parents that were losing it too), and hopefully he got where we were coming from, but in the eyes of some of the refs on this board, it sounds like we should have just sat there & never uttered a peep, even as our players were getting hurt over & over with dirty play and no calls. That's the stuff that drives parents really crazy, and should not go unchallenged. Again, there are plenty of great refs that would never let something like that happen (without fouls being called or cards shown), but there are also plenty that in my experience unfortunately let it happen far too often. As a parent, I actually let refs know when I think something is unsafe (see above comment about Safety = #1). But, I use my grown up voice and tell the ref respectfully that there is a player safety issue. Usually the ref acknowledges that somehow. As a ref, I usually hear a parent screaming at me, or worse, telling their kid to do something back to the other player. That isn't effective. Conversely, when a coach (or even a parent) politely asks me to keep an eye on a specific opposing player, I do it. |
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Post by rifle on Oct 7, 2021 12:07:00 GMT -5
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Post by rifle on Oct 7, 2021 12:09:36 GMT -5
And remember… if it’s “human nature” for spectators to yell out.. it’s likewise human nature for a ref to skew his/her judgment against the aggrieved spectator’s team for the rest of the game, tournament, season, eternity. Pick one. Character is revealed and Reputations are earned. Have empathy. Don’t be a Richard.
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Post by rifle on Oct 7, 2021 12:13:32 GMT -5
Every ref I have ever met admits they miss calls. Just not to parents on the sideline screaming at them! (FTR, if I miss less than 3 a game I think I have done a good job). There are definitely incompetent refs. Parents have a right to react to missed calls. But, it does no one any good to be jerks to each other, and it is far more often the parents escalating things than the ref. 100% this. Yes even at halftime and after the games the referees will talk to each other. The center may have constructive talk with the ARs on what they can do better, and vice versa. It is part of getting better an challenging yourself to be better at your job. We as referees just hope we don't miss a call or make a bad call that affects the game ultimately. I agree there are incompetent referees. I have worked with some that are just there for a paycheck (teenagers) and don't care about even being good at it. Those referees at least in my experience eventually get weeded out getting fewer and fewer games from the assignor till they quit or they have a come to Jesus meeting with the assignor and get better. I will also say I hear way more inaccurate complaints and yelling from parents about calls than I see mistakes a referee makes and that is even when I'm watching my own kid's game and not refereeing. I tend to be the person on my son's team parent wise that tells the parent, no that was the correct call, etc.... to calm them down. I will say I have gotten to the point that if I see contact that parents might think is a foul or the ball touch the hand but by the law of the game not truly be a handball I will usually yell out "play play" or put my hands out and kind of wave them just a little like an incomplete pass signal in football or if it hits a hand and I'm not going to call it. I will say "no no". It shows the crowd, coach, players that I saw what they saw but deemed it not to be a violation of rules. good post! |
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Post by bogan on Oct 7, 2021 15:21:50 GMT -5
And remember… if it’s “human nature” for spectators to yell out.. it’s likewise human nature for a ref to skew his/her judgment against the aggrieved spectator’s team for the rest of the game, tournament, season, eternity. Pick one. Character is revealed and Reputations are earned. Have empathy. Don’t be a Richard. Who’s Richard? |
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Post by rifle on Oct 7, 2021 16:03:04 GMT -5
And remember… if it’s “human nature” for spectators to yell out.. it’s likewise human nature for a ref to skew his/her judgment against the aggrieved spectator’s team for the rest of the game, tournament, season, eternity. Pick one. Character is revealed and Reputations are earned. Have empathy. Don’t be a Richard. Who’s Richard? I believe he sells mayochup |
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Post by bogan on Oct 7, 2021 16:09:57 GMT -5
I believe he sells mayochup 🤔😜 |
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Post by Southside Soccer on Nov 24, 2022 20:16:14 GMT -5
I am a Referee of some 28 years as well as a certified Referee Instructor/Mentor for some half that time within GA Soccer. Issues with Referee development include the following...
1. Several years ago USSF mandated all States to move all Ref new certification as well as yearly Ref annual recertification to their own online courses with no face to face instruction. Georgia separately added a four hour field practical excercise for new ref certification, to GA's credit.
2. After any new ref certification on line, and attending the GA four hour field practical, all new refs usually never again get any real time personal feedback from more senior Refs/Instructors/Mentors.
3. USSF did create a mentor program in lieu of prior face to face recertification reqt. Only problem is that GA Soccer doesnt have that many mentors to attend and provide feedack to Refs. Every mentor so rarely assigned to provide feedback to refs is just another senior ref who isnt available to ref those same games who end up short for ref coverage of games.
4. With regard to Ref development Refs will always lag behind development of players. Every youth player has two or three nights per week of practice under tutelage of paid coaches/trainers. During the game, players are subbed out to get more corrective feedback from their coach. All new refs never receive such feedback from a mentor ref on same frequency. As such the player developmental trend line is much steeper than the trend line for Referees. Youth Players will usually always be ahead of Refs in their respective development. While players are getting training feedback from coaches three or more times a week, new Refs might receive same good developmental feedback from a Ref coach maybe once or twice per season
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Post by bogan on Nov 24, 2022 20:29:07 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing! … Didn’t think about the development aspect of referees lagging players.
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Post by Southside Soccer on Nov 24, 2022 20:37:16 GMT -5
I prefer to not use club ARs - easier to run it myself. If the game is too high level, I would not play without a full crew to avoid a player safety issue. Understand your point about not flipping the lone AR, but there is a tipping point. If it's a clearly one-sided game (multiple goals, other team rarely crossing midfield), I would certainly strongly consider putting the AR where the action is. Tougher call in a 2-0 game v. 6-0 at half-time. Again, I would lean toward whatever is best for player safety, which is our number one job. Dont agree. But first, to correct other posters using lines men when short one certified AR. A linesman can only advise the Ref on when the ball crosses a boundary line. They can NOT advise on direction of restart, offside, thowin, gk, etc. Secondly, the one AR should remain in the same end for both halves. The main point for Refs following the lotg is to provide a fair game for both teams over each half. It is not the place for refs to decide which team is stronger and predicting final outcome and then switching one AR accordingly |
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Post by randomparent on Nov 25, 2022 21:53:32 GMT -5
All very true. If I had to rank the reasons for the ref shortage: 1) Parents / coaches who make the experience miserable . . . 2) Hard to commit when your / your kids' games get moved so often (sometimes because of ref shortages) 3) Cost of getting started vs. initial earnings (have to work 3 games for 3-4 weeks as an A/R just to pay back investment in certification/kit) 4) Uncertainty of work/payment - if it rains you don't get to work but you have to hold the time until the morning 5) A clunky assignor system that is hard to navigate My kids ref for money. I do it to be with them (and for some exercise). Once they get signed up, the only thing they ever complain about are the adults who act like children. I feel the same way. THIS - The cost of getting started. If it were not for me subsidizing my kids they would never have kicked in the money to ref. With the cost of certification, gear, and spending your first year AR'ing you are basically working for free assuming many of your weekends are booked due to games/tournaments on the teams you are playing on. Then your kid shows up to the game they expect refs to have every color jersey on the rainbow. More cost for the parents. My one son that has reffed for a few years will not AR anymore. I am not sure why anyone would, when you could center three games and make the same money as ARing 6 games. The only reason to AR is to get paid for minimal responsibility or build up your courage for your first center. To the the folks that email for refs, they do have good subject lines and would make good digital email marketers. I know one assignor is always begging with creative emails, but if you cancel a game last minute and your ref has driven thirty minutes to the field and you refuse to pay him, well... lol. One less ref working for your club. You should have just given him the 22 bucks, I bet you have paid your gameday bonus money ten fold over for games at our local field based on the emails you send. My other son will probably get certified for next year. I feel sorry for the parents, he doesn't mess around, I am not sure the rules for throwing people out but he is a rule guy and if it supports it he may have the most game ejections for obnoxious parents. What would it take for me to ref? I would need to be unemployed and need the money or you would need to give me free certification and outfit me with all the gear. I would then probably pick up 10-20 teams a year. |
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Post by randomparent on Nov 25, 2022 22:09:34 GMT -5
I am a Referee of some 28 years as well as a certified Referee Instructor/Mentor for some half that time within GA Soccer. Issues with Referee development include the following... 1. Several years ago USSF mandated all States to move all Ref new certification as well as yearly Ref annual recertification to their own online courses with no face to face instruction. Georgia separately added a four hour field practical excercise for new ref certification, to GA's credit. 2. After any new ref certification on line, and attending the GA four hour field practical, all new refs usually never again get any real time personal feedback from more senior Refs/Instructors/Mentors. 3. USSF did create a mentor program in lieu of prior face to face recertification reqt. Only problem is that GA Soccer doesnt have that many mentors to attend and provide feedack to Refs. Every mentor so rarely assigned to provide feedback to refs is just another senior ref who isnt available to ref those same games who end up short for ref coverage of games. 4. With regard to Ref development Refs will always lag behind development of players. Every youth player has two or three nights per week of practice under tutelage of paid coaches/trainers. During the game, players are subbed out to get more corrective feedback from their coach. All new refs never receive such feedback from a mentor ref on same frequency. As such the player developmental trend line is much steeper than the trend line for Referees. Youth Players will usually always be ahead of Refs in their respective development. While players are getting training feedback from coaches three or more times a week, new Refs might receive same good developmental feedback from a Ref coach maybe once or twice per season The Instructor/Mentor program is a good one. My son had one game and he learned alot. it was especially valuable as it came about 3 months after he started, so the timing was perfect. Something every club should expand. But you just said something I was unaware. They now require 5 hours of IN PERSON training time. So this is not pointed at you, it is just in in the thread after you posted. ROFLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Scratch my last post where I said my other son would ref, another hurdle... Why on earth would kid spend 110 bucks to register, have to spend 100 bucks on ref gear, probably 50-100 bucks on a watch, then spend FIVE HOURS of unpaid time, to go AR a u12 game and make 15 bucks a game which is probably closer to 12 bucks an hour to most likely either do it in 42 degree raining weather or 102 degree scorcher?
Question, how many games does he need to AR to break even? 25 games?
Hmmm............ why do we have a problem? |
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Post by randomparent on Nov 25, 2022 22:32:31 GMT -5
I have always allowed aggressive play. If both players are going for the ball with some shoulder bumping etc.... I'm going to let it play even if what I see what could technically be a foul by either of them. I will call any blatant foul and any excessive foul. I also a let a lot of advantage play out instead of whistling play stopped. I agree with you that a lot of younger referees do let a lot of stuff go that I would personally call, and if I AR I tend to call a lot more fouls as an AR when a younger teenager is centering because they aren't calling as much. My son lets about as much as I do go (and he plays and hates when tick tacky stuff slows the game down). Others just don't call it because they are intimidated of their whistle or being yelled at by the sideline referees (parents) if they make a bad call. Another issue though is that the parents half the time don't know what a foul is and is not. I used to be in that boat when my kids were younger as well, but after my son becoming a referee and then me as well, what you may see on the sideline is not what I see standing 10-25 yards from the "supposed foul". In reality parents just need to shut up and let the referees call a game. If there is a safety issue or a problem with fouls not being called let the Coach address it with the official. Then you might actually get some referees most of the time that call a game well. Until then you are going to continue to have lack of referees because no one wants to submit themselves to that type of abuse except ones with thick skin or have no issues clearing a sideline if need be (like myself). I am not a ref, just a parent. Here's the issue I have- just because parents yell or disagree with a ref, doesn't mean they're wrong- even though many refs take it that way. Refs are human and make mistakes too, and they should be willing to admit that. They either call fouls that weren't truly fouls or miss fouls that they should have called. They miss handballs, or let some obvious ones go, but then call others that look the exact same. They screw up throw-in and goal kick/corner kick calls. They mess up offside calls (often because of poor positioning or excessive ball-watching by ARs). They don't issue cards when they maybe should and vice-versa. They let games get out of hand with excessive physical play, to the point where players get hurt. And when those things happen, it's only natural that parents- and players & coaches too- are going to get upset. It's human nature, and happens in every sport, at every level, starting from about age 8 up through the professional ranks. Refs are getting paid to do a job, and when spectators think they're not doing it correctly or fairly, they are naturally going to express their disagreement. It's almost a spontaneous reaction, and is often hard to control. If a kid on our team gets taken out by a hard foul, almost every parent is naturally & immediately going to yell "Ohhh!" or "Foul!" or "Come on!". When there's a handball, every fan yells, "Hand!". Again, it's spontaneous & almost uncontrollable. Happens at every level of soccer, all the time. So to act like it would or should be different in a U16 boys game is ridiculous & unrealistic. But with all that in mind, I see too many refs that struggle to handle any criticism or reactions from parents, players, or coaches. They act like everyone other than them has no idea about the rules of soccer, what a foul is & isn't, what constitutes a handball, what is & isn't offside, etc. When the reality is- especially when you get to the older ages- the parents have seen A TON of soccer. Most parents know the rules pretty damn well, whether the almighty refs want to admit it or not. We often have a better view of certain plays than the refs do- especially the ones that stroll around the middle of the field & can't or won't position themselves correctly (and don't pretend that never happens just because it's not the case for the refs on this board). So to act like parents are some mouth breathers who have never watched a soccer game before and can't possibly understand the rules & regulations is laughable and frankly insulting to me. I know reffing is a hard job, and involves a lot of quick decisions, but for refs to act like they're infallible and above any criticism or questioning is just something I cannot get behind. Now, do some parents take it too far- absolutely, and when it's parents on my kids' teams, I'm embarrassed and try to do my best to calm them down & tell them to shut up because it's not going to help the team. But there are some refs that can't even take the mere hint of disagreement from parents and let it get to them far too easily. And I just don't think that's right. For this post I was just going to say I disagree with you. Parents are normally are wrong, some of them know some of the rules. The problem is that we as parents are biased. I never hear my fellow parents yelling when someone on our team commits a foul or calling and OBVIOUS offsides on our team. When my kid goes in hard for a tackle I think, great aggressive play. Good job, be tough. When the kid does an aggressive tackle with my kid I think foul, the ref needs to protect my kid. Then to be honest you gave me a LOL because you kind of reinforced this theory further down with your other post when you never say anything accept for player safety. Like the time your kid was fouled. Maybe it was a bad foul, but the reason I had an LOL was my whole problem with parents yelling and commenting is the biases. It is only their team or their kid they comment about. Do you comment on player safety when your daughter commits a foul? Probably not, I certainly wouldn't. But that is why parents are normally wrong. I would say though I agree with you that player safety is important and we have all been in games were too much is allowed and inevitably kids get hurt. Generally the refs do a good job of controlling a game, sometimes they wait too long but they usually get there eventually. Personally I am okay differentiating the type of ref/game regarding comments. High level/older games with older refs that are getting paid a decent amount I do have higher expectations for. Any game with a kid under the age of 20 I usually just sit back and accept it for what it is. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Nov 26, 2022 8:30:28 GMT -5
I am not a ref, just a parent. Here's the issue I have- just because parents yell or disagree with a ref, doesn't mean they're wrong- even though many refs take it that way. Refs are human and make mistakes too, and they should be willing to admit that. They either call fouls that weren't truly fouls or miss fouls that they should have called. They miss handballs, or let some obvious ones go, but then call others that look the exact same. They screw up throw-in and goal kick/corner kick calls. They mess up offside calls (often because of poor positioning or excessive ball-watching by ARs). They don't issue cards when they maybe should and vice-versa. They let games get out of hand with excessive physical play, to the point where players get hurt. And when those things happen, it's only natural that parents- and players & coaches too- are going to get upset. It's human nature, and happens in every sport, at every level, starting from about age 8 up through the professional ranks. Refs are getting paid to do a job, and when spectators think they're not doing it correctly or fairly, they are naturally going to express their disagreement. It's almost a spontaneous reaction, and is often hard to control. If a kid on our team gets taken out by a hard foul, almost every parent is naturally & immediately going to yell "Ohhh!" or "Foul!" or "Come on!". When there's a handball, every fan yells, "Hand!". Again, it's spontaneous & almost uncontrollable. Happens at every level of soccer, all the time. So to act like it would or should be different in a U16 boys game is ridiculous & unrealistic. But with all that in mind, I see too many refs that struggle to handle any criticism or reactions from parents, players, or coaches. They act like everyone other than them has no idea about the rules of soccer, what a foul is & isn't, what constitutes a handball, what is & isn't offside, etc. When the reality is- especially when you get to the older ages- the parents have seen A TON of soccer. Most parents know the rules pretty damn well, whether the almighty refs want to admit it or not. We often have a better view of certain plays than the refs do- especially the ones that stroll around the middle of the field & can't or won't position themselves correctly (and don't pretend that never happens just because it's not the case for the refs on this board). So to act like parents are some mouth breathers who have never watched a soccer game before and can't possibly understand the rules & regulations is laughable and frankly insulting to me. I know reffing is a hard job, and involves a lot of quick decisions, but for refs to act like they're infallible and above any criticism or questioning is just something I cannot get behind. Now, do some parents take it too far- absolutely, and when it's parents on my kids' teams, I'm embarrassed and try to do my best to calm them down & tell them to shut up because it's not going to help the team. But there are some refs that can't even take the mere hint of disagreement from parents and let it get to them far too easily. And I just don't think that's right. For this post I was just going to say I disagree with you. Parents are normally are wrong, some of them know some of the rules. The problem is that we as parents are biased. I never hear my fellow parents yelling when someone on our team commits a foul or calling and OBVIOUS offsides on our team. When my kid goes in hard for a tackle I think, great aggressive play. Good job, be tough. When the kid does an aggressive tackle with my kid I think foul, the ref needs to protect my kid. Then to be honest you gave me a LOL because you kind of reinforced this theory further down with your other post when you never say anything accept for player safety. Like the time your kid was fouled. Maybe it was a bad foul, but the reason I had an LOL was my whole problem with parents yelling and commenting is the biases. It is only their team or their kid they comment about. Do you comment on player safety when your daughter commits a foul? Probably not, I certainly wouldn't. But that is why parents are normally wrong. I would say though I agree with you that player safety is important and we have all been in games were too much is allowed and inevitably kids get hurt. Generally the refs do a good job of controlling a game, sometimes they wait too long but they usually get there eventually. Personally I am okay differentiating the type of ref/game regarding comments. High level/older games with older refs that are getting paid a decent amount I do have higher expectations for. Any game with a kid under the age of 20 I usually just sit back and accept it for what it is. FYI if you have ever been an AR on the sidelines of games either of my kids having been playing you absolutely WILL hear me comment that our player committed a foul or was offsides. I tend to be a fair person. I also played the game (a long time ago when some rules were a bit different, but many were not) and my kids have played for a combined 15 years not including rec soccerand I watch many (my family would say too many) hours of soccer per week. I also tend to listen to the commentary, read many soccer articles and am a person who absorbs knowledge on things I like. Parents like me exist on every sideline. At the higher levels there are several parents like this on sidelines. That being said the rules change EVERY YEAR! So we do need to keep up with them and not assume they were the same as last year. Although we do need to give AR and CR of U9-U12 some slack let us all remember that you are enforcing rules of the game on small kids that look at the refs as authority figures. They are learning way more per day than the refs are (presumably they knew SOMETHING about soccer before they were certified). The Littles will be confused by inconsistent enforcement of the rules and crappy or new refs interfere with the learning of the game at those levels. At least one ref at those games should know what they are doing and be fit enough to cover a 7v7 or 9v9 field. |
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Post by rifle on Nov 26, 2022 8:32:33 GMT -5
Lots of good comments here. People speaking the truth from their perspective so right and wrong is relative.
Clubs should subsidize referee training, recertification and uniforms. The cost is definitely a burden and it’s a lot of lost money for those who try and quit. Clubs could use tournament fee money or sponsorships. Require the recipient to work X games for X years then give a reimbursement payment to cover those costs.
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