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Post by soccerloafer on Mar 31, 2023 13:55:08 GMT -5
Tonight marks the end of the regular season. Playoffs start after spring break. After working 50+ games in the last 10 weeks, thought you might like some inside scoop. First, there aren't enough of us. Our association (the largest in GA), covered about 6500 games with 400 referees. Assuming a mix of duals and 3-mans, that's an average of 40 games per ref - 4 per week. Dozens of refs will have worked 60 or more games, some hit the coveted 100 mark. It's crazy. We make about $26 an hour including travel time. A varsity double header pays $158. Leave work at 4:30 pm for a 5:30 pm arrival, 6 pm kick off, 8 pm second kick off, leave around 9:45 pm, home by 10:30 pm. $158 / 6 hours = $26 before taxes... Not exactly a windfall. Most of us like refereeing and enjoy competitive matches. While abilities vary, I have not encountered any blatantly biased officials. Sometimes it seems like it when a string of calls goes one way, but that can be the flow of the game... We mostly get along, but personalities vary. Yes, like you, we cringe when certain referees walk up. We miss stuff. We see things you don't. What seems an obvious foul from the stands was a great tackle when I'm right there. The obvious handball you see was at an angle I didn't have, or was screened by another player. Most coaches are professionals and operate at an adult level. A handful don't. Everyone knows who they are. Teams (and fans) mimic the coach's persona. Coach yells at referees, players and fans yell at the referee. Coach is chill and professional, players and fans act the same (always exceptions of course). Fans aren't a big factor, other than to provide comic relief. For the love of all that is sacred, it's not a handball every time there is ball / arm contact. Relax. Also high school players are allowed to protect themselves, so a handball foul in club is not always a handball in HS. The dual system is terrible. We're always in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even when we're close, the angle is often such that we can't see half the play. No one wins with the dual. The dual also gives up the ability of having a center referee working the center channel, talking to players, hearing players, generally managing the game with personality. Instead we're drones on the outside calling fouls, not managing the game. The hardest games to referee are boys JV from big schools. We're typically in a dual and the players would be varsity at most other schools. With underclass immaturity, those can get out of hand quickly. On most football-centric stadiums, it's almost impossible to tell when the ball goes over the endline. You have an endzone color (usually dark), a line (gray, yellow, blue), and then a white overrun area. On normal fields, we're looking for white, green, white (line, grass, ball) to judge in/out. In the endzone it's blue, gray, white, white. It's like a running optical illusion. Looking forward to the playoffs. Come join us next year. www.gsoa.net
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Mar 31, 2023 14:36:36 GMT -5
I might once my son graduates high school and quits playing. I will never do a 2 man system though. It as you said is a no-win situation for anyone involved. The bad thing is that most High Schools won't pay for a 3-man referee system to begin with for JV and even some non-region Varsity games. Even if they did request them, there wouldn't be enough to fill all the games with 3 referees.
There are some pretty bad HS referees in our High School area, and it isn't just me saying that. I will ask coaches, players, parents from numerous High Schools around my area and there a handful of just awful ones either for just being too old and can't keep up, can't see an offside when everyone can see the guy was off by a mile (really offside too not the ones where they really weren't we are talking before the ball is kicked real offside), or just completely blind to the majority of fouls or dangerous playing. I wouldn't want to be paired up with one of those referees to be honest.
Don't get me wrong, I hear a ton of stupid stuff in the stands from fans that don't have a clue about any of the rules obviously, but being a referee I genuinely see some pretty bad referees sometimes where I'm like, "wow I don't ever want to work with that dude...".
So I may consider doing HS someday, but as of now I have no desire to do it.
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Post by triffling on Apr 6, 2023 21:10:04 GMT -5
Our association (the largest in GA), covered about 6500 games with 400 referees…Come join us next year. www.gsoa.netInteresting. Wonder why more referees don’t want to bother with HS? 🤔
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Apr 7, 2023 9:25:24 GMT -5
Our association (the largest in GA), covered about 6500 games with 400 referees…Come join us next year. www.gsoa.netInteresting. Wonder why more referees don’t want to bother with HS? 🤔 He laid out a lot of the reasons in his post. I will ref club games but have no desire to do High School. Especially in a 2-man system.
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Post by triffling on Apr 7, 2023 12:26:01 GMT -5
Interesting. Wonder why more referees don’t want to bother with HS? 🤔 He laid out a lot of the reasons in his post. I will ref club games but have no desire to do High School. Especially in a 2-man system. Yes, some of those are reasons not to, but in my opinion, he left out the most glaring and that is GSOA themselves as well as the antiquated NFHS system that insists on using their own rule book instead of adopting FIFA laws of the game with their own local rules of competition to handle disciplinary matters.
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Post by futboldad on Apr 7, 2023 16:42:30 GMT -5
I ref HS because it is for the kids. No refs no games. An assignor told me once “it’s their World Cup!” I go into each match with no preconceived notion. I prepare the best I can whether it’s club u10 rec or a HS playoff. It’s their word cup!
The players and coaches train relentlessly. They give their best on match day. I will do the same for the love of the beautiful game.
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Post by notcrazysoccerdad on Apr 7, 2023 17:14:39 GMT -5
He laid out a lot of the reasons in his post. I will ref club games but have no desire to do High School. Especially in a 2-man system. Yes, some of those are reasons not to, but in my opinion, he left out the most glaring and that is GSOA themselves as well as the antiquated NFHS system that insists on using their own rule book instead of adopting FIFA laws of the game with their own local rules of competition to handle disciplinary matters. It's a good point. The 2-man system is a great example, as are the rules around clock management.
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Post by touchlinedad on Apr 10, 2023 13:29:15 GMT -5
To the OP, thank you for refereeing. It is a thankless task but without y'all, the system would collapse.
I always thought that once my kids aged out of youth soccer, I would consider becoming a referee. The only thing that's held me back is the fact that I never played the game and I think a ref should be a former player.
Is there any way to push for NFHS to adopt the standard laws of the game? High school soccer has become a backwater, it seems, of the youth soccer world. But I agree with Eric Wynalda's recent article in The Guardian (the subject of another post) that it is hard for club soccer to replace the pressure of playing in "a buzzing high school stadium, where pride and a sense of occasion are on the line – as are your opponent’s fans, who are yelling at you for 90 minutes."
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Post by oraclesfriend on Apr 10, 2023 14:22:06 GMT -5
To the OP, thank you for refereeing. It is a thankless task but without y'all, the system would collapse. I always thought that once my kids aged out of youth soccer, I would consider becoming a referee. The only thing that's held me back is the fact that I never played the game and I think a ref should be a former player. Is there any way to push for NFHS to adopt the standard laws of the game? High school soccer has become a backwater, it seems, of the youth soccer world. But I agree with Eric Wynalda's recent article in The Guardian (the subject of another post) that it is hard for club soccer to replace the pressure of playing in "a buzzing high school stadium, where pride and a sense of occasion are on the line – as are your opponent’s fans, who are yelling at you for 90 minutes." I always find the comments about the fans at HS soccer interesting. I wonder what schools have that kind of fan base. Just went to a game with my middle school aged child. It was a girls game, but the boys were immediately after. Big school. In the top 10. Playing a nearby school so should have been easy for opposing team’s fans to get there. There were less than 60 people there and that was including my kid’s team and their parents.
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Post by rifle on Apr 10, 2023 21:11:36 GMT -5
To the OP, thank you for refereeing. It is a thankless task but without y'all, the system would collapse. I always thought that once my kids aged out of youth soccer, I would consider becoming a referee. The only thing that's held me back is the fact that I never played the game and I think a ref should be a former player. Is there any way to push for NFHS to adopt the standard laws of the game? High school soccer has become a backwater, it seems, of the youth soccer world. But I agree with Eric Wynalda's recent article in The Guardian (the subject of another post) that it is hard for club soccer to replace the pressure of playing in "a buzzing high school stadium, where pride and a sense of occasion are on the line – as are your opponent’s fans, who are yelling at you for 90 minutes." Just do it. It’ll take some adjustment to go from fan (watching) to referee (working) but you can do it. You’ll find good camaraderie among refs too.
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Post by triffling on Apr 10, 2023 22:35:58 GMT -5
I always find the comments about the fans at HS soccer interesting. I wonder what schools have that kind of fan base. Just went to a game with my middle school aged child. It was a girls game, but the boys were immediately after. Big school. In the top 10. Playing a nearby school so should have been easy for opposing team’s fans to get there. There were less than 60 people there and that was including my kid’s team and their parents. Agree that for most HS games its generally not the number of fans - it is that they sit elevated in the stands and as such you hear them more clearly on the pitch. Plus the parents seem to get a little bit more vocal and emotionally invested for a HS game than they do on a sleepy weekend afternoon for travel soccer. The combination is that both players and referees hear more from the stands in this environment and that can impact player and referee emotions too. When a girl hears her mom or dad yelling at her from the stands not to "take any more of that from that other girl" you can pretty much guarantee that the girl is going to push back or get pulled out of position because she's suddenly more motivated by what her mom said than her coach. Same with some boys and their dads. When a player hears ongoing negative comments from opposing parents, I can pretty much guarantee that that player is going to commit some form of misconduct. I see this behavior regularly in the stands when I attend games and without fail, the player commits some form of misconduct towards his opponent or towards the fans. And the sad thing is its only rare that school officials intervene with the parents who pull this crap. As a referee, you definitely hear more in a stadium environment - even when the stands only have a few dozen fans. But even with larger crowds, there are voices and words that stick out and carry. The players hear it too and it can have an adverse effect on the match. I have had to stop college matches more than once because of inappropriate language being yelled from the stands at players. Sometimes student driven and sometimes from parents. Personally, it would be one of the things that would be enjoyable about working HS matches because it adds an additional level of difficulty to managing matches, but when the HS ref associations create unnecessary barriers for experienced referees to do matches, its just not worth the hassle for many of us.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 11, 2023 13:43:56 GMT -5
I always find the comments about the fans at HS soccer interesting. I wonder what schools have that kind of fan base. Just went to a game with my middle school aged child. It was a girls game, but the boys were immediately after. Big school. In the top 10. Playing a nearby school so should have been easy for opposing team’s fans to get there. There were less than 60 people there and that was including my kid’s team and their parents. Personally, it would be one of the things that would be enjoyable about working HS matches because it adds an additional level of difficulty to managing matches, but when the HS ref associations create unnecessary barriers for experienced referees to do matches, its just not worth the hassle for many of us. The last paragraph is the gist of why I don't do it. The extra burden of getting certified to do HS games, the 2 man system, and the rules being different. Adopt the FIFA rules and get rid of the 2-man system (force the schools to pay for 3-man even for JV and non-region games) and you will get a lot more club referees signing up.
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Post by soccerloafer on Apr 11, 2023 14:46:02 GMT -5
IMO the rules differences are not that significant. During play, soccer is soccer.
Obviously the 2 man is the main detriment.
Clock management is goofy, but on the flip side, everyone knows exactly how much time is remaining. No guessing. Good referees use a little common sense to work around some of the injury management issues.
Couple of things I would like to see move from HS to club: - cautioned player leaves the field until the next sub opportunity. gives kids a chance to cool off and helps reduce the quick second yellow. and if it's a hard foul, allows the fouled player a chance to cool off as well. - pre-game conference with both coaches / captains. gives the referee crew a chance to share the same information with everyone at once and set the tone. - eliminate player passes / roster checks. the club system is stupid. if you are going to cheat in youth soccer, shame on you, and we probably won't catch you.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 11, 2023 16:59:10 GMT -5
- eliminate player passes / roster checks. the club system is stupid. if you are going to cheat in youth soccer, shame on you, and we probably won't catch you. I have caught several teams with irregularities on rosters versus player pass many times. The cheating or just bad team manger/coach/adminstrative issues (whichever one it is) happens more frequently than you think. I have had several games that a player couldn't play because they were written on the roster (SCCL which is allowed for club pass), but the person could not produce even a digital copy of the kid's player pass. Cheating does happen, but at least with a good referee crew that will actually do their due diligence to ensure proper players are playing and not someone playing down when it is illegal to do so or whatever the reason at least there is that air of possibly being caught which keeps more people from trying it. Without that risk, cheating would be a lot more prevalent. Even with all that if a club wants to cheat on the admin side as a whole, it would be almost impossible for me to tell if a person was legal or not if they were on the roster and had a player pass. I would assume there are some clubs out there that do look the other way knowingly playing overaged players etc... There have been kid's my son's team has faced kids had full grown beards and after the game went and kissed their wife/girlfriend and kids and road home together. We all know we have seen overaged players play even if we cannot prove it. It does generally happen more so with foreign born players that have birth certificates from other countries but it happens either knowingly or not. I assume most know and its the unwritten rule of not snitching.
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Post by triffling on Apr 12, 2023 12:01:24 GMT -5
IMO the rules differences are not that significant. During play, soccer is soccer. Obviously the 2 man is the main detriment. Clock management is goofy, but on the flip side, everyone knows exactly how much time is remaining. No guessing. Good referees use a little common sense to work around some of the injury management issues. Couple of things I would like to see move from HS to club: - cautioned player leaves the field until the next sub opportunity. gives kids a chance to cool off and helps reduce the quick second yellow. and if it's a hard foul, allows the fouled player a chance to cool off as well. - pre-game conference with both coaches / captains. gives the referee crew a chance to share the same information with everyone at once and set the tone. - eliminate player passes / roster checks. the club system is stupid. if you are going to cheat in youth soccer, shame on you, and we probably won't catch you. Correct, during play, soccer is soccer. The problem is that for 40+ years the powers that be both here in Georgia and elsewhere have tried to say that HS soccer is different and requires a "rule" book instead of the LoTG and then required you to attend an additional 9 hour course to referee HS soccer. College is the same, but at least in the college game you are getting paid substantially more money which makes the bureaucratic hassle worth it. All these separate rules do is cause confusion for the players. The players just want to play and having slightly different rules for HS ends up causing frustration among players. Half of the whining on the field towards the end of the college game is about clock management. In USSF/FIFA, all I have to do is point to my watch and just say - hey, I am adding time and the players understand. You don't have that flexibility in HS or in college unless you get really creative in your excuses to stop the clock and if you get too creative, you create problems under the rules. As for HS to club, I am sorry, but I disagree completely. 1) Cautioned players can always be removed by the coach - its a stoppage and only a fool for a referee would not allow a sub in such an instance. These players are used to having to cool themselves or a teammate down at the club level and coaches know who their hot heads are. As a referee, you can also use every tool in your tool belt to manage these players. If its a hard tackle that earned a caution, you have a chat with both the one who got carded as well as the player on the receiving end. 2) Pre-game conference? Really? Come on, by HS the vast majority of these players have been playing for at least 4-5 years of competitive soccer. They know the drill, they know what is expected. Heck half of these guys spend more time watching high level soccer than even playing. These conferences were dumb 30 years ago when I played and haven't gotten any better. I cringe when I see a referee give his talk to a team or even the captains. Nine times out of ten the advice / expectations go out the window within a few minutes of the kick. 3) Rosters and player passes are an important part of how we as referees ensure that the proper players are sanctioned for bad behavior and for keeping club teams honest. Is it a hassle? Yes, sometimes it is - especially when clubs schedule back to back games with insufficient time in between, but it is necessary for the game to remain fair. I would be all in favor of a system where team managers exchanged and verified the information before the game and heck for higher level games where subs are tracked, it would be great to have the managers also act as the scorekeepers and track those things, but in the grand scheme of things, it is a role and responsibility that falls to us and is usually pretty east to manage. At the end of the day, all we can do is report roster / pass issues and let the league sort out violations. And yes, occasionally, coaches will try and cheat. I have had a coach try and use another player's player card for someone else. I have had a coach try and sneak a concussed player back on the pitch - which we caught because we had properly tracked starters and subs. I have seen roster violations with players playing in too many games. Collecting and properly filing these rosters help ensure the safety and fairness for the players. In the end, HS soccer can be a valuable experience for players to experience playing under a higher level of emotional intensity - which is I believe the point that Wynalda was making and which is often absent from many of the weekly ECNL / MLSNext / Girls Academy games. BUT, so long as HS soccer remains its own little fiefdom in terms of being separate from USSF in terms of both administration and refereeing, I don't see it as an important component of the soccer pyramid. If you are a serious player with aspirations of playing professionally or at the high D1 level, its a distraction that can be risky in terms of injury. If you are a referee looking to work at higher levels it is also a distraction because none of the games count towards your advancement. Want more HS referees so that you don't have the same older adults working 40-60-100 games in a compressed spring schedule? Open up membership to any USSF registered referee and allow the HS assignors to pull officials in based on their overall referee experience rather than whether they got their forms in during the fall and attended 9 hours of training sessions on top of what they already do for US Soccer and the college game.
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Post by soccerloafer on Apr 12, 2023 13:55:20 GMT -5
1) Cautioned players can always be removed by the coach - its a stoppage and only a fool for a referee would not allow a sub in such an instance. These players are used to having to cool themselves or a teammate down at the club level and coaches know who their hot heads are. As a referee, you can also use every tool in your tool belt to manage these players.
No re-entry in the club game, so the team would be playing short. Also in club, all players are same age / maturity. Not so in HS. One tool in my tool belt is a 'time out.'
2) Pre-game conference? Really?
Sure, anything more than 30 seconds is a waste. I simply remind the coaches that we are the paid adults and responsible for the safe administration of the game. Remind the players to treat our crew with respect and we'll treat them with respect. It's a quick human connection before we all start trying to kill each other.
3) Rosters and player passes are an important part of how we as referees ensure that the proper players are sanctioned for bad behavior and for keeping club teams honest. Is it a hassle?
I played an entire season (30 years ago) in an adult league without registering - made it through the roster / player pass review every time with no trouble. It's not that hard. The entire pregame process is pointless theater.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 13, 2023 7:33:53 GMT -5
3) Rosters and player passes are an important part of how we as referees ensure that the proper players are sanctioned for bad behavior and for keeping club teams honest. Is it a hassle? I played an entire season (30 years ago) in an adult league without registering - made it through the roster / player pass review every time with no trouble. It's not that hard. The entire pregame process is pointless theater. Are you really comparing a "Sunday League" Adult league when giving a reason why player pass and rosters shouldn't be a thing? Come on man! Of course no-one cares in a Sunday adult league what the rosters say. You are correct in less competitive environments such as Recreation youth games and academy games, there is less need for player passes and rosters, but in competitive level Select leagues it is necessary, and people do try to cheat.
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Post by soccernoleuk on Apr 13, 2023 8:39:25 GMT -5
The reason player passes shouldn't really matter is because the #1 goal of club soccer should be to develop players...not win games.
Personally I still think it is a mistake to be so rigid with age groups, especially with older kids. Once kids are High School age, there is no reason you can't combine multiple age groups by skill level instead of by birth year.
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Apr 13, 2023 9:01:22 GMT -5
The reason player passes shouldn't really matter is because the #1 goal of club soccer should be to develop players...not win games. Personally I still think it is a mistake to be so rigid with age groups, especially with older kids. Once kids are High School age, there is no reason you can't combine multiple age groups by skill level instead of by birth year. This I can get behind. A smaller older kid should be able to play down for player development. This happens a lot in Academy (I know this for a fact as I've seen it be done except in tournaments where it isn't allowed). Skill level and size should most definitely play a part in it versus just rigid age requirements.
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Post by triffling on Apr 13, 2023 10:16:39 GMT -5
1) Cautioned players can always be removed by the coach - its a stoppage and only a fool for a referee would not allow a sub in such an instance. These players are used to having to cool themselves or a teammate down at the club level and coaches know who their hot heads are. As a referee, you can also use every tool in your tool belt to manage these players. No re-entry in the club game, so the team would be playing short. Also in club, all players are same age / maturity. Not so in HS. One tool in my tool belt is a 'time out.' Only some club leagues limit reentry and the ones that do, there is an expectation that the players will adjust and if not, the coach will pull them. HS is really the only competition where this is done. Thousands of club games happen in the state week in, week out without any need to remind people that the referee wearing the yellow shirt is the one in charge. Good for you. I once punched an opponent 30 years ago and got away with it. Let's get rid of violent conduct and red cards b/c sometimes someone gets away with it because the referee isn't paying attention. Oh, and it was in a HS game with a dual system of control. ;-)
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Post by triffling on Apr 13, 2023 10:35:55 GMT -5
The reason player passes shouldn't really matter is because the #1 goal of club soccer should be to develop players...not win games. Personally I still think it is a mistake to be so rigid with age groups, especially with older kids. Once kids are High School age, there is no reason you can't combine multiple age groups by skill level instead of by birth year. This I can get behind. A smaller older kid should be able to play down for player development. This happens a lot in Academy (I know this for a fact as I've seen it be done except in tournaments where it isn't allowed). Skill level and size should most definitely play a part in it versus just rigid age requirements. US Soccer tried rolling something like this out a few years ago. Honestly, not sure where it stands. As for age brackets, the original DA used two year brackets. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons they shifted to single year brackets was because it allowed clubs to keep more players in the pool and helped ensure that the younger players in a two-year bracket didn't lose playing time.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Apr 13, 2023 20:29:01 GMT -5
I agree referees need to be paid more.
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