|
|
Post by soccer3819 on May 8, 2023 16:34:39 GMT -5
Just looking for advice on pooled players vs team dynamic in terms of development as I see benefits to both. What type of players benefit in both? Thanks!
|
|
|
|
Post by rifle on May 8, 2023 20:03:39 GMT -5
My experience (one kid in academy starting in 2010.. in a supposedly pooled academy) was the rosters were mostly fixed regardless… Not real helpful, I know - but the takeaway for me is try to find a club with a curriculum and a demonstrated level of attention to ALL the teams.
|
|
|
|
Post by soccerdad16 on May 8, 2023 20:51:22 GMT -5
I think there is a benefit when they are younger to pool play. As mentioned tge top 6 or 7 are pretty stagnant roster wise but 3 or 4 are normally rotated in to play with the top pool team is the way I have experienced it. The lower players in the pool get the advantage of practicing with tougher players. It can be a little detrimental of you are one of the top 2 or 3 skilled but not ebough to have a negative impact on development.
|
|
|
|
Post by randomparent on May 9, 2023 5:59:32 GMT -5
Just looking for advice on pooled players vs team dynamic in terms of development as I see benefits to both. What type of players benefit in both? Thanks! I have seen pooled played by multiple academy directors at multiple clubs multiple times. I can sort of remember a young version of myself being enamored by the concept, and actually listening to the coaches and believing it. Here are the versions I have seen - - True pooled play, each week kids are switched between teams. If this is the case, run don't walk away from the club. Not only does it play mind games with your kid it means you as parents will never learn other parents names or make friends because each week it is a new group of rando parents your assigned. - Fake pooled play, you pretty much have the same team each week but occasionally like every 3-5 weeks a kid may move around. Usually a way for the coaching staff to correct mistakes made at tryouts/team camp when they were on their phone instead of watching. They get to think, wow this kid doesn't need to be on the top team. Take this poor kid, emotional damage your on the second team. - Actual team, coaches actually pay attention so they are not stuck with larry moe or curly. They also are invested in the team doing well, so no mulligans and have to try to help improve the kids they are coaching. Generally I think pooled play is just the easiest way for clubs to maximize profits. It allows for a figure head coach (young, well liked, lots of energy) supported by lots untested and untrained coaches. That way your U11 age group can take 40 players or 90 players it doesn't matter as long as you can find someone over the age of 18 to "coach" the bottom groups. What produces the best players? I have been consistently impressed with Concord Boys top team through U11 since they have a good coach that follows them. I don't think there is anything comparable in the city than being on that team in terms of player development, consistently. |
|
|
|
Post by rifle on May 9, 2023 7:46:32 GMT -5
Just looking for advice on pooled players vs team dynamic in terms of development as I see benefits to both. What type of players benefit in both? Thanks! I have seen pooled played by multiple academy directors at multiple clubs multiple times. I can sort of remember a young version of myself being enamored by the concept, and actually listening to the coaches and believing it. Here are the versions I have seen - - True pooled play, each week kids are switched between teams. If this is the case, run don't walk away from the club. Not only does it play mind games with your kid it means you as parents will never learn other parents names or make friends because each week it is a new group of rando parents your assigned. - Fake pooled play, you pretty much have the same team each week but occasionally like every 3-5 weeks a kid may move around. Usually a way for the coaching staff to correct mistakes made at tryouts/team camp when they were on their phone instead of watching. They get to think, wow this kid doesn't need to be on the top team. Take this poor kid, emotional damage your on the second team. - Actual team, coaches actually pay attention so they are not stuck with larry moe or curly. They also are invested in the team doing well, so no mulligans and have to try to help improve the kids they are coaching. Generally I think pooled play is just the easiest way for clubs to maximize profits. It allows for a figure head coach (young, well liked, lots of energy) supported by lots untested and untrained coaches. That way your U11 age group can take 40 players or 90 players it doesn't matter as long as you can find someone over the age of 18 to "coach" the bottom groups. What produces the best players? I have been consistently impressed with Concord Boys top team through U11 since they have a good coach that follows them. I don't think there is anything comparable in the city than being on that team in terms of player development, consistently. Is it fair to ask how many of these “consistently and incomparably” developed Concord academy players are still there at U17? |
|
|
|
Post by lovetokickit on May 9, 2023 7:53:40 GMT -5
Most kids, especially in the younger age groups, just want to play.
IMO pool play is good for establishing and maintaining friendships, being competitive, and the beginnings of mental toughness (whether the players recognize it or not).... The parents notice more, therefore, they are the ones hurt most.
Don't project onto your kid ... Let them play. As the weeks go by and they begin playing games, you as a parent on the sideline should be able to see the technical skills improvement in your kid.
And by the end of the fall season, your kid's skill level should increase. It really depends on how quickly your kid interprets the instructions and can put it into practice.
My only suggestion is to not let your feelings as the parent interfere with your kids' learning in pool play.
My daughter started out in pool play... Some weeks she was on top team, some weeks she was moved to another team. Some weeks my feelings were hurt, and I learned not to bad talk the experience in front of her. In reality, she probably wasn't putting forth the effort in practice that week. What she learned is that she always wanted to be on the top team so she worked really hard to get there and stay there. Then the next year, she moved down again... new kids joined the team. Before the end of the season, she worked super hard to get back to the top team. It was exhausting for me, but she appreciated the grind. It really was a hard lesson that she needed.
I've also seen kids who started on the bottom and work their way to the top team... Or switch positions because they're a naturally gifted GK and not a forward.
At the end of the day, it's up to you whether to stay or find a dedicated team. Make sure your kid is happy and is progressing.
|
|
|
|
Post by randomparent on May 9, 2023 8:36:03 GMT -5
I have seen pooled played by multiple academy directors at multiple clubs multiple times. I can sort of remember a young version of myself being enamored by the concept, and actually listening to the coaches and believing it. Here are the versions I have seen - - True pooled play, each week kids are switched between teams. If this is the case, run don't walk away from the club. Not only does it play mind games with your kid it means you as parents will never learn other parents names or make friends because each week it is a new group of rando parents your assigned. - Fake pooled play, you pretty much have the same team each week but occasionally like every 3-5 weeks a kid may move around. Usually a way for the coaching staff to correct mistakes made at tryouts/team camp when they were on their phone instead of watching. They get to think, wow this kid doesn't need to be on the top team. Take this poor kid, emotional damage your on the second team. - Actual team, coaches actually pay attention so they are not stuck with larry moe or curly. They also are invested in the team doing well, so no mulligans and have to try to help improve the kids they are coaching. Generally I think pooled play is just the easiest way for clubs to maximize profits. It allows for a figure head coach (young, well liked, lots of energy) supported by lots untested and untrained coaches. That way your U11 age group can take 40 players or 90 players it doesn't matter as long as you can find someone over the age of 18 to "coach" the bottom groups. What produces the best players? I have been consistently impressed with Concord Boys top team through U11 since they have a good coach that follows them. I don't think there is anything comparable in the city than being on that team in terms of player development, consistently. Is it fair to ask how many of these “consistently and incomparably” developed Concord academy players are still there at U17? That is a really good question. I would say no. In my opinion, in the past the best barometer is/was U12 SCCL rankings. It is the last year everyone plays in the same league prior to ECNL/MLS Next and close enough to academy that many clubs continuity between U11 and U12 is pretty high. But this past year looking at it would be a mess since AU takes many clubs top players, the top concord team played up in U13, the top NASA Milton team played in U13, and the Marietta NASA had about half the group pushed down to the second team when the new coach brought in his players. So I am not really sure it counts anymore as gauge as Academy development. I think if parents more seriously looked at the number of Concord academy players playing ECNL/RL at U17 would be very indicative of club loyalty. We shouldn't focus just on them though as the same question could be asked of NASA, and a host of other clubs in ATL. The problem most clubs having more academy kids at older age groups is the second/third team guys leave to go be first team guys at other clubs. For whatever reason, clubs don't really give those guys a chance to move up. |
|
|
|
Post by bolo on May 9, 2023 9:04:12 GMT -5
Just looking for advice on pooled players vs team dynamic in terms of development as I see benefits to both. What type of players benefit in both? Thanks! I have seen pooled played by multiple academy directors at multiple clubs multiple times. I can sort of remember a young version of myself being enamored by the concept, and actually listening to the coaches and believing it. Here are the versions I have seen - - True pooled play, each week kids are switched between teams. If this is the case, run don't walk away from the club. Not only does it play mind games with your kid it means you as parents will never learn other parents names or make friends because each week it is a new group of rando parents your assigned. - Fake pooled play, you pretty much have the same team each week but occasionally like every 3-5 weeks a kid may move around. Usually a way for the coaching staff to correct mistakes made at tryouts/team camp when they were on their phone instead of watching. They get to think, wow this kid doesn't need to be on the top team. Take this poor kid, emotional damage your on the second team. - Actual team, coaches actually pay attention so they are not stuck with larry moe or curly. They also are invested in the team doing well, so no mulligans and have to try to help improve the kids they are coaching. Generally I think pooled play is just the easiest way for clubs to maximize profits. It allows for a figure head coach (young, well liked, lots of energy) supported by lots untested and untrained coaches. That way your U11 age group can take 40 players or 90 players it doesn't matter as long as you can find someone over the age of 18 to "coach" the bottom groups. What produces the best players? I have been consistently impressed with Concord Boys top team through U11 since they have a good coach that follows them. I don't think there is anything comparable in the city than being on that team in terms of player development, consistently. Neither of my kids were ever in a pooled play scenario, but we had friends that were, primarily at Tophat. It can get extremely competitive and even toxic, with the kids but especially the parents, if you've got one of the kids that is on the bubble and moves between teams frequently. What we always heard (and saw play out) was that if you ever got dropped down from a higher team, it was very difficult to earn your way back up onto that team, especially in-season. Sometimes it happened if there were injuries or a larger than normal number of players unavailable for a given weekend, but it wasn't common. Things we have always enjoyed about having a set team for an entire season: - The kids don't feel like they're constantly in competition for their spot on the team, just playing time on the field. - The sense of camaraderie and togetherness that comes with that, both among the players and parents. - Knowing your schedule at the start of the season (outside of occasional changes), rather than trying to figure out week-to-week when, where, and with who you're going to be playing. Especially if you've got multiple kids playing sports, plus "normal life activities" on weekend, finding out your weekend schedule on Thursday or Friday can be a pain. I'm sure some will say that "breeding" that competition into the kids from an early age makes them tougher and maybe better players, but for us, I wouldn't have traded our situations, especially on teams where the kids and parents got along well, which was typically the case. |
|
|
|
Post by triffling on May 9, 2023 10:10:34 GMT -5
We did pool play at U9 and really liked it. Great set of coaches lead by a demanding but fair head coach. The kids all trained together during the week and the focus was all 1v1, 2v1, 2v2 and some 3v3.
The top 4-5 were always on the top team and the rest equally distributed among the 2&3 teams with a fair number of players moving up to the top team each week. Every kid from the top to the bottom developed strong on the ball confidence and the teams all had decent success. Were there parents that were ego driven or bizatched and moaned? Sure, every team has that.
Sadly for us, the club pushed our academy coach out when they brought in a new director and he brought his Scottish buddies in. All long ball.
We left and went to another club that had a pool program but this one was full of favoritism. Those that paid for extra training were on the top team and those who didn’t pay either didn’t get playing time or were relegated to the bottom team. My son was doing skills training outside of the club and was constantly benched. To make matters worse they flipped the teams when playing stronger clubs so that the top team wouldn’t get beat as bad and the bottom team would get blown out.
My son quit after that. Couldn’t blame him. Took him 3 years to get back in, but the skills and confidence on the ball he learned at U9 were still with him.
So my advice, if the pool has a director that is focused on developing all of the players in his pool and is coaching solid fundamentals, go with it. If not, find the right individual coach under whom your child will thrive.
|
|
|
|
Post by randomparent on May 9, 2023 10:36:09 GMT -5
We did pool play at U9 and really liked it. Great set of coaches lead by a demanding but fair head coach. The kids all trained together during the week and the focus was all 1v1, 2v1, 2v2 and some 3v3. The top 4-5 were always on the top team and the rest equally distributed among the 2&3 teams with a fair number of players moving up to the top team each week. Every kid from the top to the bottom developed strong on the ball confidence and the teams all had decent success. Were there parents that were ego driven or bizatched and moaned? Sure, every team has that. Sadly for us, the club pushed our academy coach out when they brought in a new director and he brought his Scottish buddies in. All long ball. We left and went to another club that had a pool program but this one was full of favoritism. Those that paid for extra training were on the top team and those who didn’t pay either didn’t get playing time or were relegated to the bottom team. My son was doing skills training outside of the club and was constantly benched. To make matters worse they flipped the teams when playing stronger clubs so that the top team wouldn’t get beat as bad and the bottom team would get blown out. My son quit after that. Couldn’t blame him. Took him 3 years to get back in, but the skills and confidence on the ball he learned at U9 were still with him. So my advice, if the pool has a director that is focused on developing all of the players in his pool and is coaching solid fundamentals, go with it. If not, find the right individual coach under whom your child will thrive. That is some next level stuff, never even imagined using a pool play to sacrifice your lower level teams so your top team retains massive confidence. |
|
|
|
Post by Soccerhouse on May 9, 2023 11:18:54 GMT -5
I'm a fan of just lets saying creating 3 teams at each agegroup based upon skill at u8 to u11 and allow your middle players to play up when needed etc. Don't go to the younger age group, use the top kids from the 2nd team. Same is true for for the jump from team 3 to team 2. Too often when a coach needs a body, they turn to the younger age group vs the 2nd team.
at the end of the day, none of it matters, all kids develop and grow differently, as long as your getting good quality training, being on team 1 to team 3 makes no difference as the kids go through their player pathway. my kids top u15 to u19 teams were/are filled with kids who were buried on teams 2 to 4 at the younger ages. and ironically lots of the team 1 players are gone etc.
The middle third is usually where the most develop occurs in my mind.
Find a club where you agree with their training and coaching philosophy's, and trust the process. There will be ups and downs, selfish decisions made by coaches, but at the end of the day, most of those coaches are gone and leave, and your child is still around.
Unfortunately most coaches at these ages don't make decisions of what is best for the club, its what is best for his/her team for that given season, and not thinking big picture.
I do miss the local neighborhood club mentality -- you knew all the coaches, admin and staff etc. Seems those days are behind us.
|
|
|
|
Post by newposter on May 9, 2023 11:55:03 GMT -5
I'm a fan of just lets saying creating 3 teams at each agegroup based upon skill at u8 to u11 and allow your middle players to play up when needed etc. Don't go to the younger age group, use the top kids from the 2nd team. Same is true for for the jump from team 3 to team 2. Too often when a coach needs a body, they turn to the younger age group vs the 2nd team. at the end of the day, none of it matters, all kids develop and grow differently, as long as your getting good quality training, being on team 1 to team 3 makes no difference as the kids go through their player pathway. my kids top u15 to u19 teams were/are filled with kids who were buried on teams 2 to 4 at the younger ages. and ironically lots of the team 1 players are gone etc. The middle third is usually where the most develop occurs in my mind. Find a club where you agree with their training and coaching philosophy's, and trust the process. There will be ups and downs, selfish decisions made by coaches, but at the end of the day, most of those coaches are gone and leave, and your child is still around. Unfortunately most coaches at these ages don't make decisions of what is best for the club, its what is best for his/her team for that given season, and not thinking big picture. I do miss the local neighborhood club mentality -- you knew all the coaches, admin and staff etc. Seems those days are behind us. |
|
|
|
Post by newposter on May 9, 2023 12:05:40 GMT -5
We found that top kids left by u13 or u14 to the big clubs ours included. Except for a rare exception most players have separated themselves by this age. The coaches know who the players are and so do the players. Like every sport, there are more gifted athletes and players.
|
|
|
|
Post by Soccer912 on May 11, 2023 14:37:46 GMT -5
Our biggest frustration with pool play is seeing the very strong players on the top team not being pushed to improve. All training is done mixed with the 2nd tier team who are being challenged with playing with/against the stronger players so they are showing growth. No additional, higher level training is done to push the top tier team so they have become somewhat stagnant. The club benefits by keeping the 2nd tier happy at the expense of pushing the top team. Good business decision on their part as its a smaller market with little options to switch to a different club.
Will be moving up to U13 in the Fall so hoping to finally see some separation and more challenging training.
|
|
|
|
Post by oraclesfriend on May 11, 2023 16:28:00 GMT -5
Our biggest frustration with pool play is seeing the very strong players on the top team not being pushed to improve. All training is done mixed with the 2nd tier team who are being challenged with playing with/against the stronger players so they are showing growth. No additional, higher level training is done to push the top tier team so they have become somewhat stagnant. The club benefits by keeping the 2nd tier happy at the expense of pushing the top team. Good business decision on their part as its a smaller market with little options to switch to a different club. Will be moving up to U13 in the Fall so hoping to finally see some separation and more challenging training. If this is the problem then they need to have the top team play/ train with the next older age group. Maybe against the top team or maybe the second team depending on skill level and size difference etc. Every group needs to be pushed sometimes |
|
|
|
Post by soccer3819 on May 11, 2023 21:12:41 GMT -5
Our biggest frustration with pool play is seeing the very strong players on the top team not being pushed to improve. All training is done mixed with the 2nd tier team who are being challenged with playing with/against the stronger players so they are showing growth. No additional, higher level training is done to push the top tier team so they have become somewhat stagnant. The club benefits by keeping the 2nd tier happy at the expense of pushing the top team. Good business decision on their part as its a smaller market with little options to switch to a different club. Will be moving up to U13 in the Fall so hoping to finally see some separation and more challenging training. I didn’t even think about the top tier not being challenged. What a great point to make. |
|
|
|
Post by GameOfThrow-ins on May 11, 2023 23:49:42 GMT -5
I have seen pooled played by multiple academy directors at multiple clubs multiple times. I can sort of remember a young version of myself being enamored by the concept, and actually listening to the coaches and believing it. Here are the versions I have seen - - True pooled play, each week kids are switched between teams. If this is the case, run don't walk away from the club. Not only does it play mind games with your kid it means you as parents will never learn other parents names or make friends because each week it is a new group of rando parents your assigned. - Fake pooled play, you pretty much have the same team each week but occasionally like every 3-5 weeks a kid may move around. Usually a way for the coaching staff to correct mistakes made at tryouts/team camp when they were on their phone instead of watching. They get to think, wow this kid doesn't need to be on the top team. Take this poor kid, emotional damage your on the second team. - Actual team, coaches actually pay attention so they are not stuck with larry moe or curly. They also are invested in the team doing well, so no mulligans and have to try to help improve the kids they are coaching. Generally I think pooled play is just the easiest way for clubs to maximize profits. It allows for a figure head coach (young, well liked, lots of energy) supported by lots untested and untrained coaches. That way your U11 age group can take 40 players or 90 players it doesn't matter as long as you can find someone over the age of 18 to "coach" the bottom groups. What produces the best players? I have been consistently impressed with Concord Boys top team through U11 since they have a good coach that follows them. I don't think there is anything comparable in the city than being on that team in terms of player development, consistently. Is it fair to ask how many of these “consistently and incomparably” developed Concord academy players are still there at U17? Son is upcoming U17 CF Plat, CF since 1st year academy and only club. Probably 4-5 players still on team since the earliest squad - over the years some dropped to Premier, some went to Atl Utd, some left to chase playing time, some left to focus on another sport so roughly 25% still together since youngest days. I would think that’s a fairly common percentage, if not on the high side. |
|
|
|
Post by randomparent on May 12, 2023 8:21:10 GMT -5
Is it fair to ask how many of these “consistently and incomparably” developed Concord academy players are still there at U17? Son is upcoming U17 CF Plat, CF since 1st year academy and only club. Probably 4-5 players still on team since the earliest squad - over the years some dropped to Premier, some went to Atl Utd, some left to chase playing time, some left to focus on another sport so roughly 25% still together since youngest days. I would think that’s a fairly common percentage, if not on the high side. That is pretty good imo. |
|
