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Post by futboldad1 on Jan 10, 2024 12:03:26 GMT -5
So, my kid plays in SAPL and her team was in second place in their division when they completed their season on December 17th (21 total points). The fourth place team had two more games remaining at the end of December and they were 5 points behind my kids team. Coincidentally, the team in 4th place found themselves in a situation where their last two scheduled opponents opted not to play the games. In the league 'honor' scoring system the 4th place team then posted their un-played games as victories (4 goals to 0) and claimed 6 points. Therefore, they 'earned' a total of 22 points and took second place. As a result, the now '2nd place' team that superseded my kids team is going to Regional playoffs and my kids team is going to play showcase. It clearly states in the SAPL rules that if two teams do not play a game, no points will be awarded to either team. Our girls director approached the SAPL board to argue that our team has been unfairly superseded and that the now '2nd place' team did not follow the rules and is robbing our kids of a rightfully earned spot in the playoffs. ALL of our parents are outraged and many are almost overcome with anger. The Regional and showcase games are scheduled for this weekend. Is there anyone who can help our team? This is an insult to anyone who tries do things fairly and is setting precedent that a league will not follow their own rules. Attachments:
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Post by flamengo100 on Jan 10, 2024 12:56:51 GMT -5
Where in the rules does it state this. I couldn't find it on the website ? At one point last weekend I saw the standings be updated to Points Per Game instead of Total Points and then they switched back to Total Points. I don't know who you can escalate the issue other than your director and sorry for your girls team.
I found this on their website so I would have the director asked if those clubs that forfeited got hit with a $500 fine. "Forfeited games - any team that forfeits either a regular season or SAPL play off game will be fined $500.00 per game."
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Post by futboldad1 on Jan 10, 2024 13:11:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to attach a file in response. But I have attached a screen shot from our parent conversation in the original post. Several parents found the same language on the SAPL website. I'll try to find the website address in the meantime.
Yes, we discussed the fine also, but I think SAPL said that they won't enforce the fine either.
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Post by futboldad1 on Jan 10, 2024 13:16:01 GMT -5
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Post by soccerdad16 on Jan 10, 2024 14:04:55 GMT -5
Damns sucks for the kids but may not have any recourse, looks like that's a forfeit so it would fall under this rule: In each NPL Competition during the NPL Regular Season, teams shall be awarded three (3) points for a win, one (1) point for a tie, and zero (0) points for a loss. A forfeit shall be considered a 3-0 loss for the forfeiting team and a 3-0 win for the nonforfeiting team.
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Post by flamengo100 on Jan 10, 2024 14:41:13 GMT -5
Thanks. I was looking at the SAPL rules and not the NPL rules. It seems like the standings should be based on points per games basis but this maybe specific to weather cancellations.
I blame the league. It looks two teams from Raleigh, NC did not want to drive 9 hours to play one game in Huntsville, AL that wouldn't impact their results. The Carolina teams and AL team are split on the boys side so they do not play during regular season but not enough girl teams.
"If any NPL Competition is cancelled, the participating clubs shall attempt to reschedule the NPL Competition. If
the participating clubs cannot agree on a reschedule date, the NPL General Manager shall
determine if and how such NPL Competition shall be rescheduled. If the NPL General
Manager finds that it is impossible to reschedule such cancelled NPL Competition, the
NPL Competition shall be considered a non-played game, and neither team shall be
awarded any points. In the event that any games are cancelled pursuant to this Rule 3.4,
the NPL General Manager shall alter the method by which NPL standings are determined
for impacted age groups (for example to change to a point-per-games basis)"
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Post by atlantagray on Jan 10, 2024 14:51:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to attach a file in response. But I have attached a screen shot from our parent conversation in the original post. Several parents found the same language on the SAPL website. I'll try to find the website address in the meantime. Yes, we discussed the fine also, but I think SAPL said that they won't enforce the fine either. Per the league rule book: 3.17 Points. In each NPL Competition during the NPL Regular Season, teams shall be
awarded three (3) points for a win, one (1) point for a tie, and zero (0) points for a loss.
A forfeit shall be considered a 3-0 loss for the forfeiting team and a 3-0 win for the nonforfeiting team.A forfeit is a loss for team that forfeits, and a 3-0 win (3 points) for team that doesn't forfeit. Unfortunately for your team, that's cut and dried. I don't like it, especially at the end of the season when points determine post-season placement Attachments:
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Post by lajolla39 on Jan 10, 2024 15:11:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry that your kid got screwed. It's unfortunate when adults use rules to screw over other kids teams.
In futsal this kind of thing happens all the time.
I remember one tournament where a ref and coach who looked a lot alike would flip the rules from goals scored to points to whatever would allow their preferred team to win. I've also seen leagues that literally give certain teams more games than others so they can win the league.
I was going to argue with the Futsal ref that was obviously colluding with a certain coach but he had a predominate neck tattoo. In the heat of the moment, it made sense. Fortunately, I caught myself and said what good will come from arguing with a guy that has a neck tattoo? He's obviously the kind of guy that makes good decisions.
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Post by futboldad1 on Jan 10, 2024 17:16:53 GMT -5
Thanks. I was looking at the SAPL rules and not the NPL rules. It seems like the standings should be based on points per games basis but this maybe specific to weather cancellations. I blame the league. It looks two teams from Raleigh, NC did not want to drive 9 hours to play one game in Huntsville, AL that wouldn't impact their results. The Carolina teams and AL team are split on the boys side so they do not play during regular season but not enough girl teams. "If any NPL Competition is cancelled, the participating clubs shall attempt to reschedule the NPL Competition. If the participating clubs cannot agree on a reschedule date, the NPL General Manager shall determine if and how such NPL Competition shall be rescheduled. If the NPL General Manager finds that it is impossible to reschedule such cancelled NPL Competition, the NPL Competition shall be considered a non-played game, and neither team shall be awarded any points. In the event that any games are cancelled pursuant to this Rule 3.4, the NPL General Manager shall alter the method by which NPL standings are determined for impacted age groups (for example to change to a point-per-games basis)"
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Post by futboldad1 on Jan 10, 2024 17:32:22 GMT -5
The games were recorded as wins by the Alabama team before the games were scheduled to be played. I guess the question is what really is the difference between a cancelled game and a forfeited game. In our team's mind, the games were cancelled and not forfeited. It really comes down to how SAPL views and enforces their rules.
So, outside of the fine, what prevents a club from forfeiting/cancelling a game to give points away and determine league standings? It just doesn't seem right in any way.
Why play the games at all? Why not just have a big meeting between teams and exchange points?
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Post by rifle on Jan 11, 2024 6:28:08 GMT -5
First - I am really sorry this happened. It sounds truly shizatty.. and the “Director’s discretion” thing is a total cop out. These leagues have been around long enough to foresee this specific situation and write a rule about it.
But “club soccer gonna club soccer”. If it doesn’t hurt their P&L statement they won’t make the effort.
Second - never heard of SAPL and the (above) linked rules appear to be for NPL. If those leagues operate under the same rules.. keep reading. If the rules I am about to cite are not applicable - let me know and I will delete this.
The paragraph you keep quoting (#3.5) is about rescheduled games. Not voluntary forfeits. (*It also references paragraph 3.4 which is unrelated so it also appears to be a rule written by an org that doesn’t care enough to proof read).
Since it’s an issue of points and the director already rendered a decision based on the forfeits paragraph.. I think you are SOL.
However.. if you are going to continue to try and extract blood from a rock based on the rule book - this is where you might have a better opportunity for relief:
3.2.2 Play-Offs and Finals Commitment. All clubs participating in the NPL are required to complete all scheduled competitions for which they are scheduled or for which they qualify in the post-season, including without limitation participation in post-season play-offs and the NPL Finals. US Club Soccer reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to allow limited exemptions for individual participating clubs due to exceptional circumstances , as solely determined by US Club Soccer.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, any club that does not participate in all required competitions [/], and that does not receive an exemption from US Club Soccer, may face sanctions from US Club Soccer, including without limitation, forfeiture of points, ineligibility for post-season play for the relevant team or the entire club, or immediate removal from the NPL
I would think that “undesire to drive X hours for one inconsequential game” is not an exceptional circumstance. I would also be *shocked* if the directors are buddies. I suspect they called and confirmed the outcome before deciding to skip the inconvenience.
It sucks. If YOUR club really cares, they would be threatening to pull all their teams from the league going forward. But they won’t because next year they have a new incoming batch of willing suckers to pay them.
Again - I am sorry you are going through this. I like the saying “If you can’t get out of it.. get INTO it!” So I hope the girls choose to harness their frustration and put on a clinic with their showcase game(s). It’s about all you can do.
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Post by futboldad1 on Jan 11, 2024 9:09:34 GMT -5
Thank you Rifle. Nobody caught that rule to this point . . . the team will be most appreciative. I'm forwarding your points to team/club and hopefully they will be able to apply enough pressure to make people come to their senses and do the correct thing. I will let you know how this ridiculous thing plays out.
NPL is the governing body of SAPL and SAPL is a division / league under them.
I'm sure you know, but NPL is also under US Club Soccer.
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Post by rifle on Jan 11, 2024 12:13:13 GMT -5
Thank you Rifle. Nobody caught that rule to this point . . . the team will be most appreciative. I'm forwarding your points to team/club and hopefully they will be able to apply enough pressure to make people come to their senses and do the correct thing. I will let you know how this ridiculous thing plays out. NPL is the governing body of SAPL and SAPL is a division / league under them. I'm sure you know, but NPL is also under US Club Soccer. I perceive US Club as the org that never should have been.. If the federation had any balls. But since US Club stormed the castle, the big clubs write and rewrite the rules however they can benefit themselves.
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Post by footyfan on Jan 13, 2024 11:03:30 GMT -5
Thank you Rifle. Nobody caught that rule to this point . . . the team will be most appreciative. I'm forwarding your points to team/club and hopefully they will be able to apply enough pressure to make people come to their senses and do the correct thing. I will let you know how this ridiculous thing plays out. NPL is the governing body of SAPL and SAPL is a division / league under them. I'm sure you know, but NPL is also under US Club Soccer. I perceive US Club as the org that never should have been.. If the federation had any balls. But since US Club stormed the castle, the big clubs write and rewrite the rules however they can benefit themselves. Who are the directors of the league?
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