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Post by fanatic21 on Nov 13, 2018 22:34:11 GMT -5
Unfortunately, there is a shortage of not only good referees but of referees in general, so as much as we'd like to see the "bad" referees go, if that happens, there won't be enough certified referees to work all of the games. I believe the primary reason for this shortage, as was alluded to in several earlier posts, is that far too many coaches and parents abuse referees - and for the most part, for the ones who are abusive, it doesn't matter whether the referees are good referees, bad referees, old referees, young referees, refs who are just learning, refs have potential to become good referees if they get a little more experience, etc. - some coaches and parents just yell and scream and complain and ridicule the referees no matter what. I know at least a dozen very good former referees who hung up the whistle because they were tired of being screamed and yelled at unjustifiably. Not to say that coaches and parents and players can't every disagree with referees, but unfortunately most don't know how to do so with tact and respect. If clubs want to improve the referee situation, they will need to crack down on coach and parent behavior - field marshals is a good start - invest more resources in their referee programs - higher pay for refs, providing referee training and incentives for attending and/or for achieving higher levels of certification, etc. Clubs put lots of money into player development, but unfortunately most don't put a lot of effort into referee retention and development.
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Post by soccerloafer on Nov 14, 2018 8:00:24 GMT -5
I'm not saying they don't care about rules, misinterpretation of rules, etc. There are just some bad referees and no matter what you do they will not ever be a good referee. Again my point is when the safety of players is jeopardized they need to go. Unfortunately I don't see this happening. I'll leave it at that. I'm not disagreeing with you...
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Post by crossbar on Nov 14, 2018 10:22:15 GMT -5
I'm not saying they don't care about rules, misinterpretation of rules, etc. There are just some bad referees and no matter what you do they will not ever be a good referee. Again my point is when the safety of players is jeopardized they need to go. Unfortunately I don't see this happening. I'll leave it at that. I'm not disagreeing with you... Yeah, we all agree. Who are you even arguing with?
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Post by slickdaddy96 on Nov 14, 2018 11:35:43 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you... Yeah, we all agree. Who are you even arguing with? Maybe me, but I'm not arguing either. My son knows plenty of lazy, "just there for the paycheck" referees that he works with. He also knows some pretty bad ones that just probably won't ever be good. He isn't one of those though. I am not like these American Idol parents that tell their kids they are awesome when they aren't. He is a solid young referee, and I hope to encourage him to keep at it. I am thinking about going ahead and getting certified as well.
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Post by rifle on Nov 14, 2018 12:51:30 GMT -5
I am too. I definitely don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze but I love the game and my soccer player has aged (and concussed) out of playing. My younger one referees and I think getting my own badge might be a way to keep him coming back. And for me to stop getting fat.
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Post by ultimatedad on Nov 14, 2018 14:02:40 GMT -5
The parents of DA kids should all be required to watch Trophy Kids on Netfiix before their kids arw allowed to play DA
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Post by soccerloafer on Nov 14, 2018 14:20:09 GMT -5
Rifle and Slickdaddy - just do it. Since I'm guessing you're both successful adults, and you're doing it for fun, you'll be like me and take no crap. I have no problem quickly tossing players or coaches who interfere with my (and everyone else's) enjoyment of the game.
Keep up with play, chat with the players (listen to what they're asking for, they'll tell you what you missed and are usually pretty honest about it), use common sense, and look like you're having fun. That keeps 95% of the games in check. The other 5% were doomed from the start...
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Post by rifle on Nov 14, 2018 19:27:45 GMT -5
Rifle and Slickdaddy - just do it. Since I'm guessing you're both successful adults, and you're doing it for fun, you'll be like me and take no crap. I have no problem quickly tossing players or coaches who interfere with my (and everyone else's) enjoyment of the game. Keep up with play, chat with the players (listen to what they're asking for, they'll tell you what you missed and are usually pretty honest about it), use common sense, and look like you're having fun. That keeps 95% of the games in check. The other 5% were doomed from the start... I appreciate the presumption of success and the advice for managing games.
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 19, 2018 14:11:22 GMT -5
Why was the goal called off? And its hard way for a club to learn a lesson thats for sure, but at the end of the day the results at u13/u14 only matter that week, then they are forgotten. But the bigger question is why is Concorde sending out one coach to a DA game - This is what frustrates me more than anything, DA is a club based venture, not a coach based one -- These teams should all have multiple coaches and input from multiple coaches on players and tactics. The goal was called off because it hit the footbal goal...so it was already out. And for the coach to get tossed, it had to been a few times him getting warned or have said something pretty bad to them. Btw....I heard that after the coach was sent off a kid showed up with a CF shirt, he wasnt on the roster so they sent him away. Then another guy showed up said he was going to coach, and when the refs asked him his name he also wasn't on the roster. The refs at this point got fed up and called the hotline and explained the situation. They were told by USSF to end the game by forfeit. Also, DA coaches do get tossed out, I have seen it. And then when the federation gets the report they will issue an additional suspension on that coach depending on the report. Yes, there should have been more than one DA CF coach there, wasn't the whole club playing that day? DA is played under modified FIFA rules, what you are quoting is High School rules. Under modified FIFA is the obstruction is there at the start of the game it is part of the game and even if the ball did hit the foolball goal as long as it wasn't outside the lines of the field then it never went out. If that is the rule applied by the officiating drew they were wrong, goal should have stood.
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 19, 2018 14:15:07 GMT -5
I don’t have a horse in this race, but I gotta say that the argument that the ball was still in play because the football crossbar, which is a couple feet above the goal, kept it in... That’s absurb. A quick check of the rules? The laws of the game don’t explicitly account for a football crossbar hanging above the actual crossbar. And for good reason. You can’t account for every possible weird field configuration. If a ball was headed out of bounds and a parent, coach, or player on the bench deflected it back in, would it remain in play? No. And keep in mind that this could be done without someone illegally entering the field of play because the ball has to entirely cross the line before it’s out. And yeah, ARs frequently make calls that the ref didn’t see, so the lack of an initial whistle doesn’t matter. That’s like saying an offside call can’t invalidate a goal if the ref missed the flag and doesn’t blow the whistle before the ball enters the net. I’ve seen a lot of games in fields like this, and every single time a ball hits the football goalposts it’s been called out. And for good reason. Clinging to an argument like this undermines your credibility. It either hit the football crossbar or it didn’t. If the ref missed it and the AR got it right, good. If the AR was mistaken, bummer. But at the end of the day, it’s still a little kids’ soccer game. People need to maintain perspective. Especially those in charge. This type of scenario is covered in FIFA rules, what you are relating to is High School soccer which states if the ball hits the football crossbar it is out. In FIFA rules (DA playe modified FIFA so this is covered), the crossbar is there at the start of play and as such is part of the field. If the ball did hit the football crossbar and was not completely out of bounds then by the LoTG it never was out and the goal should stand. If the AR was arguing this point he was wrong.
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 19, 2018 14:16:43 GMT -5
Quick rule check says it doesn't matter if it hit the football goal post - the ball was never out and there was no whistle. The goal post is directly over the crossbar and touch line so ball never would have gone out anyway. Doesn't matter if the ball hits the ref, a moose, or a UFO - if it doesn't go out, there is no whistle, and there are no written ground rules covering it, the ball remains in play. It's just like when that ball went off the ref's head then straight to the net. And by the way, every UFA parent at the game that I talked to right as it was happening said it did NOT hit the goal post but went off the crossbar, so SoccerMom is the ONLY person out of 300 plus, including all the players, that saw it like that AR watching from another county. Video not out yet; if and when it does come out that last play will certainly be cut; the result is a 1-1 draw on the ussoccerda website, not a 3-0 forfeit. What does that tell you? thisonedude, thanks for correcting me! The AU 2005 team will still be a freight train at U-15 and it looks like the difference in the substitution rules will only slightly impact them. However, it would seem to make the CF-UFA competition for players even more intense. This is an entertaining interpretation. I fully concur, not an interpretation it is covered under FIFA LoTG
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 19, 2018 14:27:14 GMT -5
Video speaks for itself - refs made the right call and should be applauded. Actually refs made the wrong call under modified FIFA LoTG, high school is a different set of rules
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 19, 2018 14:35:12 GMT -5
Sorry, I meant to say the football goal being there is a big deal. I completely agree with you on the fact that the results of this game don't mean a thing. I'm talking about in the overall scheme of things. So this time the refs got it right, what happens if the refs don't and it affects these same two teams next year when the results do count? Not sure what can be done since the football goal is more of a permanent structure but I see this being a potential issue in the future. I've seen this similar scenario played out in a high school game without all of the dramatic aftermath. I think there is only one person in this thread that thinks the ball can hit the goalpost or a moose and the goal should still count. It's an easy call to make. No worries. In High School this would be the correct call, but under modified FIFA LoTG this was the wrong call, it would be covered the same as an overhanging branch, if it is there at the beginning of the game, it is considered part of the field and unless the ball had completely crossed the line before hitting the football crossbar it never left the field of play and the goal should have counted.
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Post by thisonedude on Nov 19, 2018 19:42:20 GMT -5
I don’t have a horse in this race, but I gotta say that the argument that the ball was still in play because the football crossbar, which is a couple feet above the goal, kept it in... That’s absurb. A quick check of the rules? The laws of the game don’t explicitly account for a football crossbar hanging above the actual crossbar. And for good reason. You can’t account for every possible weird field configuration. If a ball was headed out of bounds and a parent, coach, or player on the bench deflected it back in, would it remain in play? No. And keep in mind that this could be done without someone illegally entering the field of play because the ball has to entirely cross the line before it’s out. And yeah, ARs frequently make calls that the ref didn’t see, so the lack of an initial whistle doesn’t matter. That’s like saying an offside call can’t invalidate a goal if the ref missed the flag and doesn’t blow the whistle before the ball enters the net. I’ve seen a lot of games in fields like this, and every single time a ball hits the football goalposts it’s been called out. And for good reason. Clinging to an argument like this undermines your credibility. It either hit the football crossbar or it didn’t. If the ref missed it and the AR got it right, good. If the AR was mistaken, bummer. But at the end of the day, it’s still a little kids’ soccer game. People need to maintain perspective. Especially those in charge. This type of scenario is covered in FIFA rules, what you are relating to is High School soccer which states if the ball hits the football crossbar it is out. In FIFA rules (DA playe modified FIFA so this is covered), the crossbar is there at the start of play and as such is part of the field. If the ball did hit the football crossbar and was not completely out of bounds then by the LoTG it never was out and the goal should stand. If the AR was arguing this point he was wrong. Where in the FIFA laws did you find this specification about pre-existing obstructions? Here is FIFA law 9 (ball in and out of play) in its entirety for 2018/2019: 1. Ball out of play The ball is out of play when: • it has wholly passed over the goal line or touchline on the ground or in the air • play has been stopped by the referee 2. Ball in play The ball is in play at all other times, including when it rebounds off a match official, goalpost, crossbar or corner flagpost and remains in the field of play i didn't see anything in the FIFA laws (https://img.fifa.com/image/upload/khhloe2xoigyna8juxw3.pdf) that correspond with your assertion. Not saying you're wrong, but I don't see evidence that you are correct. I did find this tidbit, though: "The integrity of the Laws, and the referees who apply them, must always be protected and respected. All those in authority, especially coaches and team captains, have a clear responsibility to the game to respect the match officials" and their decisions.
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Post by rifle on Nov 19, 2018 20:20:30 GMT -5
Wow. Helps to know the rules, apparently. Do referees get “reminders” for this stuff?
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Post by SoccerMom on Nov 19, 2018 20:42:15 GMT -5
The goal was called off because it hit the footbal goal...so it was already out. And for the coach to get tossed, it had to been a few times him getting warned or have said something pretty bad to them. Btw....I heard that after the coach was sent off a kid showed up with a CF shirt, he wasnt on the roster so they sent him away. Then another guy showed up said he was going to coach, and when the refs asked him his name he also wasn't on the roster. The refs at this point got fed up and called the hotline and explained the situation. They were told by USSF to end the game by forfeit. Also, DA coaches do get tossed out, I have seen it. And then when the federation gets the report they will issue an additional suspension on that coach depending on the report. Yes, there should have been more than one DA CF coach there, wasn't the whole club playing that day? DA is played under modified FIFA rules, what you are quoting is High School rules. Under modified FIFA is the obstruction is there at the start of the game it is part of the game and even if the ball did hit the foolball goal as long as it wasn't outside the lines of the field then it never went out. If that is the rule applied by the officiating drew they were wrong, goal should have stood. I think that the football goal post is not directly above the soccer goal post. Someone told me its a little behind it, and if thats the case then the ball is out. I will have to take a look next time I'm there.
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Post by rifle on Nov 19, 2018 20:53:54 GMT -5
Oh... the plot thickens. Take a picture!!
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Post by SoccerMom on Nov 19, 2018 21:09:20 GMT -5
Oh... the plot thickens. Take a picture!! I meant to the check it out the other day and then totally forgot. I will ask someone to take a picture at the Generation Adidas tournament and send to me.
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 20, 2018 7:47:03 GMT -5
This type of scenario is covered in FIFA rules, what you are relating to is High School soccer which states if the ball hits the football crossbar it is out. In FIFA rules (DA playe modified FIFA so this is covered), the crossbar is there at the start of play and as such is part of the field. If the ball did hit the football crossbar and was not completely out of bounds then by the LoTG it never was out and the goal should stand. If the AR was arguing this point he was wrong. Where in the FIFA laws did you find this specification about pre-existing obstructions? Here is FIFA law 9 (ball in and out of play) in its entirety for 2018/2019: 1. Ball out of play The ball is out of play when: • it has wholly passed over the goal line or touchline on the ground or in the air • play has been stopped by the referee 2. Ball in play The ball is in play at all other times, including when it rebounds off a match official, goalpost, crossbar or corner flagpost and remains in the field of play i didn't see anything in the FIFA laws (https://img.fifa.com/image/upload/khhloe2xoigyna8juxw3.pdf) that correspond with your assertion. Not saying you're wrong, but I don't see evidence that you are correct. I did find this tidbit, though: "The integrity of the Laws, and the referees who apply them, must always be protected and respected. All those in authority, especially coaches and team captains, have a clear responsibility to the game to respect the match officials" and their decisions. I also have zero skin in this game, however the LoTG, from what has been written here have been misapplied. It is in your Law 9 above, Ball in and out of play. The whole of the ball had not crossed the whole of the line, the obstruction that caused this was part of the field and was such at the beginning of play. If the ball had struck the corner flag or an AR it is the same situation, if a tree limb hangs over the field and a ball hits it it is the same situation. As the ball never left the field of play it is live. NHSF has taken a different stance on this, probably because HS Soccer is played mainly on Football fields, and they stipulate that if the ball hits the football post and comes back then this is to be considered out. Under the USSF LoTG the goal should have counted and the AR was incorrect for this match. These points are covered in USSF Referee instruction and this exact question comes up each and every time.
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Post by soccerloafer on Nov 20, 2018 8:24:42 GMT -5
Alacrity174 - I agree with your interpretation of the LOTG as written. In my opinion, the LOTG should be updated for these situations. I think the intent (first written over 100 years ago) was to handle natural obstacles (overhanging trees) and did not envision permanent obstructions caused by multi-use fields. Common sense would follow the HS rules. I know that's a lot to ask of FIFA... The various sub-organizations often put out rule modifications, this would be an easy one to add at the competition / local / state level.
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 20, 2018 9:57:14 GMT -5
Alacrity174 - I agree with your interpretation of the LOTG as written. In my opinion, the LOTG should be updated for these situations. I think the intent (first written over 100 years ago) was to handle natural obstacles (overhanging trees) and did not envision permanent obstructions caused by multi-use fields. Common sense would follow the HS rules. I know that's a lot to ask of FIFA... The various sub-organizations often put out rule modifications, this would be an easy one to add at the competition / local / state level. This could easily be addressed by USSF for DA and GA Soccer for local youth games, a lot of games are now played on multi use fields and this does come up a lot. I fully agree that an adoption of a similar ruling by NHSF would be the best option for games played on these types of venues. Unfortunately in this case the appropriate actions were not taken and correct rules not applied (At least from what is written here). The problem is now there is a precedent for coaches and parents to now beat up on refs who do apply the correct ruling and leads to yet more confusion.
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Post by Respect on Nov 20, 2018 23:54:27 GMT -5
Within the context of the FIFA LOTG, please note that Law 9 does not address this case (there is no direct provision for this case). Assuming the (american) football goal is not outside the field of play, this case is closer to Law 5 (Referee) "Outside Interference." In this situation, the LOTG states that when an outside object interferes with play referee should stop play and restart with a dropped ball (in this case in the goal area line at the point nearest where it hit the football goal). Having said that, I'm ok with the call/restart as well based on IFAB's own expectation that when there is no direct provision in the Laws, the referee should make a decision within the 'spirit' of the game - this often involves asking the question, "what would football want/expect?" If you'd played/watched the beautiful game for long and in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play, and you know the ball was going out when this unusual outside interference happened, what would you do? One thing is clear, nullifying the goal was the correct call (as well as the protocol that led to that determination, i.e. consulting with the AR's prior to kick-off).
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Post by Respect on Nov 21, 2018 0:16:27 GMT -5
By the way, in another scenario discussed here (when the interference with play in the field of play is by a team official, substitute, substituted or sent off player), the referee must stop the play and restart with a direct free kick or penalty kick (disciplinary action is also issued, either red or yellow are possible scenarios). The only exception to the referee stopping the play is if the interference with play resulted in a goal against the offending team and the interference did not prevent a defending player playing the ball. In this case the goal is awarded (even if contact was made with the ball). FIFA Law 03 - The Players.
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 21, 2018 11:20:46 GMT -5
By the way, in another scenario discussed here (when the interference with play in the field of play is by a team official, substitute, substituted or sent off player), the referee must stop the play and restart with a direct free kick or penalty kick (disciplinary action is also issued, either red or yellow are possible scenarios). The only exception to the referee stopping the play is if the interference with play resulted in a goal against the offending team and the interference did not prevent a defending player playing the ball. In this case the goal is awarded (even if contact was made with the ball). FIFA Law 03 - The Players. Interesting interpretation. Ho would you deal with a ball going out of play that hits the AR before totally crossing the touchline? Or a tree branch overhanging the pitch and the ball hitting it and coming down inside the field not having crossed the line?
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Post by Respect on Nov 21, 2018 12:04:21 GMT -5
The match officials (included the AR) inside the field of play, the goalpost, crossbar or corner flag post are considered part of the field of play. So if the ball hits a match official who is in the field of play, the play continues. Everything else I did not list is considered an "outside object." In your case for example, the tree branch is an outside object. If there is an outside object AND if this outside object causes interference with play, the referee should stop play as indicated in my post above. If it does not interfere with play, the referee should allow the game to continue (and when possible, remove the outside object from the field at some point). If the outside "object" is actually a person, it is actually considered an "outside agent" in the LOTG. In short, an outside agent is anyone not named on the team list as a player, substitute or team official. If the interference came from an outside agent, the restart is different than if it came from a team official, substitute, substituted or sent off player. In the outside agent case, the restart is a dropped ball and in the latter case the restart is a direct free kick or penalty kick. See also the exception to this LOTG provision in my post above.
By the way, to answer your specific question on ball hitting tree branch and coming back in the field of play, it comes down to whether or not it interfered with play. If a team gained advantage and/or was prevented from playing the ball, then referee should stop the play and restart with a dropped ball. In any case, the referee can make a decision within the ‘spirit’ of the game on whether or not to stop the game for this (like letting play continue in a trifling foul, which though still an offense, has no significant impact upon play/game in the referee judgement).
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Post by alacrity174 on Nov 21, 2018 15:23:49 GMT -5
The match officials (included the AR) inside the field of play, the goalpost, crossbar or corner flag post are considered part of the field of play. So if the ball hits a match official who is in the field of play, the play continues. Everything else I did not list is considered an "outside object." In your case for example, the tree branch is an outside object. If there is an outside object AND if this outside object causes interference with play, the referee should stop play as indicated in my post above. If it does not interfere with play, the referee should allow the game to continue (and when possible, remove the outside object from the field at some point). If the outside "object" is actually a person, it is actually considered an "outside agent" in the LOTG. In short, an outside agent is anyone not named on the team list as a player, substitute or team official. If the interference came from an outside agent, the restart is different than if it came from a team official, substitute, substituted or sent off player. In the outside agent case, the restart is a dropped ball and in the latter case the restart is a direct free kick or penalty kick. See also the exception to this LOTG provision in my post above. By the way, to answer your specific question on ball hitting tree branch and coming back in the field of play, it comes down to whether or not it interfered with play. If a team gained advantage and/or was prevented from playing the ball, then referee should stop the play and restart with a dropped ball. In any case, the referee can make a decision within the ‘spirit’ of the game on whether or not to stop the game for this (like letting play continue in a trifling foul, which though still an offense, has no significant impact upon play/game in the referee judgement). Sorry but I disagree with you, if the ball hits a tree branch that was overhanging the filed of play at the start of the match it is considered part of the field and play continues, here is no stoppage and drop ball.
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Post by fanatic21 on Nov 21, 2018 15:58:38 GMT -5
USSF Advice to Referees regarding the Laws of the Game: (c) Pre-existing conditions These are things on or above the field which are not described in Law 1 but are deemed safe and not generally subject to movement. These include trees overhanging the field, wires running above the field, and covers on sprinkling or draining systems. They do not affect one team more adversely than the other and are considered to be a part of the field. If the ball leaves the field after contact with any item considered under the local ground rules of the field to be a pre-existing condition, the restart is in accordance with the Law, based on which team last played the ball. (Check with the competition for any local ground rules.) Note: The difference between non-regulation appurtenances and pre-existing conditions is that, if the ball makes contact with something like uprights or crossbar superstructure, it is ruled out of play even if the contact results in the ball remaining on the field. Where there is a pre-existing condition (such as an overhanging tree limb), the ball remains in play even if there is contact, as long as the ball itself remains on the field. Referees must be fully aware of and enforce any rules of the competition authority or field owner regarding non-regulation appurtenances. Here's a blog with a handful of examples. Video is interesting. Ball supposedly hit a tree limb above the goal- defender handles it, thinking it is out of play, ref awards penalty: www.askasoccerreferee.com/category/law1/
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Post by Respect on Nov 21, 2018 19:21:18 GMT -5
The excerpt fanatic21 posted is from 2012 USSF Advice to Referees. I believe the USSF Advice to Referees was discontinued a few years ago. Instead, one should refer directly to FIFA LOTG. The LOTG has evolved and has introduced additional provisions/clarifications for outside interference in 2016 (not sure the exact year). Regarding the video (which is also from 2012), the key provision today is that the outside object must interfere with play. In this scenario for example, and in the opinion of the referee, the tree did not interfere with play (defender could've played the ball without gaining advantage: fairness and safety) thus referee does not have to stop play. If the referee does not stop play, and subsequently field player handles the ball then it is a handball. Note that touching of the ball by outside agent or object is not necessarily cause for stopping the game.
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