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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 16, 2018 14:24:45 GMT -5
Hearing a hot rumor --
might not be true, but got it from a director at club west of the Mississippi.
Rumor that u12 and u13 DA will go away and be no more.
Discussions again about MLS only DA tier.
And lastly, conversation about adding in single year of age groups at u15+. This one he wasn't too sure about.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Nov 16, 2018 14:58:07 GMT -5
DA Only makes sense IMO, no reason to call it "DA" or have USSF run it though. MLS Academy U14/MLS Academy U15/MLS Academy U17/etc. Like every pro team academy in Europe. I don't know offhand, but I doubt the England national team runs the academy leagues for the respective clubs.
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Post by rifle on Nov 17, 2018 23:58:53 GMT -5
We don’t have pro clubs like other countries.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Nov 18, 2018 19:15:57 GMT -5
I can't confirm the other rumors but the MLS DA Only Tier is definitely coming. I don't have a timeline yet, but the MLS clubs have been talking through the details. The primary model would be to have the academies play each other exclusively in a league and have them play the non-mls clubs in between to give everyone meaningful games. So AU vs CF/UFA would not count for more than a high level scrimmage. Some of the other issues MLS Academy Directors are trying to iron out:
- One of the prevailing issues is whether to have the USSF or the MLS run thing entirely?
- Goal is to foster real development which is more likely to trigger showcase type of results. Where scores are more like 1-0, 2-1, 3-2. As opposed to 15-1, 13-0, 11-0. One AU team has beaten a team 24-0 in two games. I hear they played one or two players down and also moved all the defenders up top and moved the midfielders and strikers to the back.
- Should two leagues be created(I know, I know, yet another league), one with MLS clubs + the next best 4/6/8 non-mls clubs and a league exclusively for non-mls teams?
- Follow-up to the previous point, discussion about should there be relegation/promotion for the non-mls clubs?
- Debate on what to do with players that just can't cut it at an MLS club. It's hard to move players or to get them on to good teams once the season has started. Should there be an agreement to take cut MLS team players?
- Outside of the MLS clubs, who funds the non-mls clubs, the MLS, USSF, Clubs, Parents & Players?
As you can see, still a lot of questions and details to iron on.
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Post by rifle on Nov 18, 2018 21:47:16 GMT -5
If there is promotion and relegation for everyone except the MLS teams, there is no point in doing it. So many parallels between youth and pro. Nobody at the federation cares because they’re making money.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Nov 18, 2018 21:49:39 GMT -5
We don’t have pro clubs like other countries. And we never should??? Seems like this move is to make US clubs academies more in line with how club academies are run elsewhere. Just take USSF out of the mix.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Nov 18, 2018 21:57:44 GMT -5
If there is promotion and relegation for everyone except the MLS teams, there is no point in doing it. So many parallels between youth and pro. Nobody at the federation cares because they’re making money. Just spitballing here...But would there really ever be relegation of MLS club academies if those clubs academies are "free"/paid. Seems like all the best players would move to the free academies. Seems like those academies could offer contracts/incentives to U17+ that the non-MLS clubs couldn't counter.
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Post by crossbar on Nov 18, 2018 23:40:53 GMT -5
Maybe the MLS academies should get themselves to a point where they’re all consistently beating the lowly “regular” clubs before they agitate for their own league. US Soccer is bigger than just the MLS and it’s foolish to think that all of the best youth players in the US are in MLS academy programs.
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Post by crossbar on Nov 18, 2018 23:53:54 GMT -5
If there is promotion and relegation for everyone except the MLS teams, there is no point in doing it. So many parallels between youth and pro. Nobody at the federation cares because they’re making money. Just spitballing here...But would there really ever be relegation of MLS club academies if those clubs academies are "free"/paid. Seems like all the best players would move to the free academies. Seems like those academies could offer contracts/incentives to U17+ that the non-MLS clubs couldn't counter. Not everyone lives close to an MLS academy, and not everyone is willing to relocate to play for one. There’s a lot of talent in MLS academies, but it’s foolish to think that they’ve cornered the market on the best players in the nation. The downside of having a much smaller “top tier” with promotion/relegation is travel costs. Let’s say they do narrow it to a top tier that mostly caters to the MLS, but also has promotion and relegation. Then let’s further assume that UFA and/or Concorde promote. How do they handle the travel costs of a nationwide league? This is especially true given that only some age groups would promote, so you can’t defray costs by bussing multiple teams together, etc. So, it’s complicated.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Nov 19, 2018 0:39:04 GMT -5
Perhaps not cornered yet, but in general these academies are pretty new, no? One would think that within just a few years it won't even be a competition. If you're within a couple hours of an MLS club and are offered free club fees, free travel, and POSSIBLY free room and board (its been discussed that its coming), how could the non-MLS clubs compete? Sure there's places where MLS is not an option, but everything I'm seeing leads me to believe that they're trying to emulate the European standard...step by step. Free soccer and possibly other education OR pay $5K-7K a year to play at a local club?
I think that the MLS issues with promotion/relegation are a completely different topic than the rise of club academies. If the club is funding everything, travel costs are basically moot. In the UK, I am guessing that each academy team age group has to compete for their own place in the hierarchy of their age bracket...but that they are playing teams from generally other fully funded club academies.
I mean no disrespect to the other DA teams, but its really apples and oranges. Unless the other clubs start funding their academies from top to bottom, and how on earth could they ever do that? In the UK it seems like every town has their own club and the locals are supporters of the club top team...which is what puts the money into the academy. Larger towns will have a few clubs, all in competition, but still funded (more level of a playing field). We will likely never have a system quite like that, there are simply too many other sports options as part of our culture.
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Post by crossbar on Nov 19, 2018 0:49:42 GMT -5
Perhaps not cornered yet, but in general these academies are pretty new, no? One would think that within just a few years it won't even be a competition. If you're within a couple hours of an MLS club and are offered free club fees, free travel, and POSSIBLY free room and board (its been discussed that its coming), how could the non-MLS clubs compete? Sure there's places where MLS is not an option, but everything I'm seeing leads me to believe that they're trying to emulate the European standard...step by step. Free soccer and possibly other education OR pay $5K-7K a year to play at a local club? I think that the MLS issues with promotion/relegation are a completely different topic than the rise of club academies. If the club is funding everything, travel costs are basically moot. In the UK, I am guessing that each academy team age group has to compete for their own place in the hierarchy of their age bracket...but that they are playing teams from generally other fully funded club academies. I mean no disrespect to the other DA teams, but its really apples and oranges. Unless the other clubs start funding their academies from top to bottom, and how on earth could they ever do that? In the UK it seems like every town has their own club and the locals are supporters of the club top team...which is what puts the money into the academy. Larger towns will have a few clubs, all in competition, but still funded (more level of a playing field). We will likely never have a system quite like that, there are simply too many other sports options as part of our culture. Devil’s advocate: compare the geography and club density of Europe to the USA. We have a massive population, but we can’t take full advantage of it because our pro clubs are so few and far between. What percaentage of the US population lives within an hour of an MLS club? Two hours? I don’t know the exact answer, but there’s a lot more people out of range here vs. in Europe. i agree that travel costs are moot... if a club is funding it. But non-MLS clubs can’t/won’t. So if you go for a hybrid model with a top tier, national league it probably won’t work. There are plenty of “local” clubs that can beat the MLS academies, but can’t afford national travel. If you give the MLS academies their own special tier, then you’re freezing out an awful lot of top talent that could/should be a part of the future of the USMNT. The ideal model would be a single system with promotion/relegation to a single top tier league, but... That doesn’t work with our geographic layout if some clubs are fully funded (like MLS) and others are not. The difference between here an Europe is massive. In Europe, virtually everyone lives within a reaonsable distance of a pro academy. Here, that is simply not true. I get the desire to have a “pro teams only” league, but if you do that with our geography, you’re going to be missing out on a ton of talent. Maybe the MLS teams don’t care, but US Soccer sure should.
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Post by atv on Nov 19, 2018 8:03:58 GMT -5
There should be promotion/ relegation at all levels of youth soccer. It’s frankly ignorant to think that the best players are only in major US cities
Pro leagues are a completely different animal when it comes to promotion relegation. The MLS is a franchise where the player contracts are owned by the league not the individual teams. This is completely different from Europe where they are actual soccer clubs fielding youth to adult amateur to pro. In the US, pro/ rel would need to happen in 2nd, 3rd, 4th div play.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Nov 19, 2018 13:48:52 GMT -5
Just spitballing here...But would there really ever be relegation of MLS club academies if those clubs academies are "free"/paid. Seems like all the best players would move to the free academies. Seems like those academies could offer contracts/incentives to U17+ that the non-MLS clubs couldn't counter. Not everyone lives close to an MLS academy, and not everyone is willing to relocate to play for one. There’s a lot of talent in MLS academies, but it’s foolish to think that they’ve cornered the market on the best players in the nation. The downside of having a much smaller “top tier” with promotion/relegation is travel costs. Let’s say they do narrow it to a top tier that mostly caters to the MLS, but also has promotion and relegation. Then let’s further assume that UFA and/or Concorde promote. How do they handle the travel costs of a nationwide league? This is especially true given that only some age groups would promote, so you can’t defray costs by bussing multiple teams together, etc. So, it’s complicated. I will start by reiterating your last line - it is complicated. You bring up a lot of good points. However, let's not kid ourselves - when a player or set of parents are given the option of playing at a local club and oh btw you have to pay upwards of $10k/year versus $0.00 freeville, in addition to all the resources that MLS clubs have, I think it's a no-brainer. No one is saying they will have ALL the top best players, but they will tend to have a preponderance of them. One of the arguments is that there isn't a level playing field going up against the resources of the MLS Academies. I think this will help level things out. Apples vs Apples, Oranges vs Oranges. In any other sport or talent, you usually have to make a move to a larger arena to run with the proverbial big dogs. If you're an actor, at some point in your career, you're going to have to move to Hollywood or NYC. We hear stories of runners and gymnast moving across the country to pursue their dreams. Why should it be different for soccer?
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Post by Soccerhouse on Nov 19, 2018 14:14:05 GMT -5
don't forget not all MLS clubs are rolling in the $$$ like Atlanta United - Makes sense they create their own league where they dictate the rules not US soccer. Why should US soccer be able to tell Atlanta United how it should train its kids. The issue I see is what most others have said, there still are so many quality players that will never get a sniff by a MLS club. Look at this market, I'm stunned sometimes when I see some players that haven't been given a chance at AU. Blown away actually, some not even brought in for a training session for example. AU is stock piling players in each group now. There are kids playing very few minutes on those teams, quality kids. Will be interesting to see what happens, because europe isn't paying big bucks for US youth players. Many are going over there for free - my guess is when Bello turns 18, AU will sell him for some big $$$. But even that amount of money might only fund the acadmey for a year. What is we said $3 million a year to run an academy? (from zizou quoting Parchman - www.gasoccerforum.com/thread/2726/cost-fully-fund-boys-da)
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Post by atlfutboldad on Nov 19, 2018 14:23:13 GMT -5
www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/05/15/stejskal-mls-clubs-competing-head-head-academy-talent-far-home"Depending on the club and the player’s individual situation, out-of-territory players that move to MLS academies either come with their entire family, live with a local host family or are put up in a dorm or apartment with other academy players." One would think that if all 23+ clubs get to this point, the system for USYS/USCS/DA clubs and MLS clubs would be completely separate. There may be friendlies, but by and large the MLS clubs will reap the best kids. Moving a few years down the road...if the USL clubs were to suddenly start forming partnerships with individual local clubs to start lower-level academies it could start coming into line with European academies. IMO this is common sense stuff.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Nov 19, 2018 15:30:03 GMT -5
don't forget not all MLS clubs are rolling in the $$$ like Atlanta United - Makes sense they create their own league where they dictate the rules not US soccer. Why should US soccer be able to tell Atlanta United how it should train its kids. The issue I see is what most others have said, there still are so many quality players that will never get a sniff by a MLS club. Look at this market, I'm stunned sometimes when I see some players that haven't been given a chance at AU. Rolling in $$$ sometimes doesn't even matter. DC United charges you to play in their Academy.
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Post by rifle on Nov 19, 2018 20:11:10 GMT -5
USSF is a puppet organization run by MLS. If MLS wishes to pull their youth academies into a closed league, they will. These teams will definitely have quality players. Until USSF reforms so every competitive league is part of an open pyramid, where you earn it rather than get chosen.. domestic soccer will underperform on the world stage.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Nov 20, 2018 8:53:05 GMT -5
Open Question - So with all that we know about costs, locations, non-relegation, leagues, new leagues, etc... In the current environment, if you were the new USMNT Coach, how would you go about procuring the best players to build a competitive team at all youth levels through to the Senior National Team? Keep in mind that in approx. 8 years we host the World Cup and would like to field a competitive team that can have a really good chance at say cracking the top 8 and beyond. Abolish the current system, spend more/less, more coaches, scouts, local outreach, abolish the current pyramid, NTC, YNT ID Camps, pay for DA??? Looking at the big picture, what would be your Orwellian plan?
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Post by ga3v3 on Nov 20, 2018 9:47:05 GMT -5
USSF is a puppet organization run by MLS. If MLS wishes to pull their youth academies into a closed league, they will. These teams will definitely have quality players. Until USSF reforms so every competitive league is part of an open pyramid, where you earn it rather than get chosen.. domestic soccer will underperform on the world stage. Right on. It’s amazing that more people can’t figure that out. Unfortunately, nothing will ever happen unless the paying customer demands pro/rel for their kids teams. Definitely not happening in our state
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Post by Soccerhouse on Dec 13, 2018 22:34:55 GMT -5
more fuel to the MLS only fire -- This one is the MLS breaking away with the older u19 age group......
Can we fragment youth soccer anymore in this country.
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Post by Futsal Gawdess on Dec 14, 2018 9:50:32 GMT -5
I think this is the first salvo is breaking away and the MLS clubs doing their own thing. It's akin to the EPL teams having a U23 league. Prior to the current U23s, they had the U21s. It is sometimes called EPL 2. Wonder how that will fit in with the MLS clubs that already play in the USL?
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Post by mistergrinch on Dec 14, 2018 12:06:08 GMT -5
For anyone saying that we need our academy system needs to work like Europe.. keep this in mind:
1. England has 92 professional clubs in the top 4 leagues alone (there are 8 levels total). 2. England has an area of roughly 50k square miles 3. The US has 24 MLS teams.. NASL is functionally dead 4. The US has an area of roughly 3.8 MILLION square miles.
So - England alone has 4x the clubs in 1/76th of the space. You do the math on why this doesn't work here. The same people who bizatch that DA/ECNL/ODP end up only promoting players from major metro areas - this would be even worse.
/rant
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Post by atlfutboldad on Dec 14, 2018 13:07:57 GMT -5
Yeah, but we're VERY far behind the curve. AU is of course an anomaly in terms of popularity. But the trend is promising and soccer has FAR traction now than it did in 1994.
We do have the USL which is already planning growth and having 3 divisions. USL clubs teams to start aligning with academy clubs (some already do). I believe we can get there. It will be our own model, but it will be closer to what the majority of the soccer playing world is doing.
I don't know if England has academies that are NOT affiliated with the professional clubs. I'm guessing this idea would be foreign to them, reconciling this here will TAKE TIME.
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Post by atlfutboldad on Dec 14, 2018 13:18:22 GMT -5
Also, a U19 AU team playing in a MLS academy league is a good thing, it show that the pro academy model is growing...but this should NOT be the AU2 USL team. Does the current U19 team should FUNNEL to the AU2 USL team or IS IT the USL team?
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Post by Soccerhouse on Dec 14, 2018 13:32:02 GMT -5
Some are even questioning now if the MLS clubs need this age group, the race already is on for homegrowns and having the top kids play USL.
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Post by rifle on Dec 14, 2018 17:11:49 GMT -5
For anyone saying that we need our academy system needs to work like Europe.. keep this in mind: 1. England has 92 professional clubs in the top 4 leagues alone (there are 8 levels total). 2. England has an area of roughly 50k square miles 3. The US has 24 MLS teams.. NASL is functionally dead 4. The US has an area of roughly 3.8 MILLION square miles. So - England alone has 4x the clubs in 1/76th of the space. You do the math on why this doesn't work here. The same people who bizatch that DA/ECNL/ODP end up only promoting players from major metro areas - this would be even worse. /rant MLS has worked hard for artificial scarcity. Until there is pro/rel, every investor below MLS is pissing money away. It doesn’t work because there is no carrot. Any claim to the contrary is easily argued. A regional open pyramid with MLS at the top would revolutionize the sport. MLS is here to make sure that never happens. The federation continues to fail the sport it claims to promote.
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Post by mistergrinch on Dec 15, 2018 22:05:10 GMT -5
For anyone saying that we need our academy system needs to work like Europe.. keep this in mind: 1. England has 92 professional clubs in the top 4 leagues alone (there are 8 levels total). 2. England has an area of roughly 50k square miles 3. The US has 24 MLS teams.. NASL is functionally dead 4. The US has an area of roughly 3.8 MILLION square miles. So - England alone has 4x the clubs in 1/76th of the space. You do the math on why this doesn't work here. The same people who bizatch that DA/ECNL/ODP end up only promoting players from major metro areas - this would be even worse. /rant MLS has worked hard for artificial scarcity. Until there is pro/rel, every investor below MLS is pissing money away. It doesn’t work because there is no carrot. Any claim to the contrary is easily argued. A regional open pyramid with MLS at the top would revolutionize the sport. MLS is here to make sure that never happens. The federation continues to fail the sport it claims to promote.
Not sure most MLS teams are exactly flush with cash compared to european clubs. I'd bet that most MLS clubs financially look more like a 3rd or 4th tier English club (AUFC and a few others are obviously doing OK).
The most recent numbers I found show MLS averaging $32MM in revenue per club. This includes teams like LA Galaxy, who bring in double that number.. which means there are clubs making significantly less. This is our TOP LEAGUE, and those numbers will barely support a huge academy system.. you think USL can pay for it? Their average player salaries are $25-35k.. and they're going to support an academy?
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Post by newposter on Dec 17, 2018 10:13:45 GMT -5
MLS revenues will continue to increase as new TV contracts are negotiated. Additional new teams and markets will expand their market base. Atlanta has figured it out. Bring in younger players and the style of play will sell versus relying an older EPL player to sell tickets. DA as we know it is dead. MLS will support their own.
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Post by rifle on Dec 17, 2018 20:16:15 GMT -5
Atlanta United is definitely a bright spot in an otherwise dismal darkness because very few people want to watch MLS on TV. It’s a fact. I do not see how a more lucrative TV deal is going to happen with the current bunch of owners.
Think about this: if MLS after twenty years is so valuable and great.. how can a brand new organization start from scratch and dominate in year two?
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Post by newposter on Dec 17, 2018 21:23:57 GMT -5
The original MLS franchise cost is 25 million. The avg MLS franchise according to Forbes magazine is 240 million with 4 franchises in excess of 300 million a gain of nearly 8%. AU is valued the highest. This is similar to other pro franchises in terms of disparity i.e. MLB. In MLB Miami draws no one to a new stadium but because of revenue sharing they still make money. The MLS will do the same. AU, NYFC, Red Bulls, Galaxy and the like will support Columbus and the few clubs like it. MLS is now on ESPN, Fox and other local networks. They currently are paid 90 million per year for TV which is 5 times their previous deal. There's no indication the next one will not see similar increases. As I said in my post the MLS is in good shape financially.
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