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Post by soccerdad76 on Mar 8, 2023 17:01:26 GMT -5
This is for an ECNL team, high school age. Primary position is listed (and secondary if applicable). Goalkeepers have been omitted to focus on field players. When all players are available, there are 16 field players for 10 spots. The perfect division of time is based on number of players per game, which varies of course. It came out to be about 68% PT for the season. I do not expect everyone to play perfectly evenly distributed minutes, just showing it for reference. Games missed are not counted as zero minutes; a player has to be available to be factored in.
I would generally expect everyone to play a minimum of half of a game over the course of a season. For this team 9 players are above that and 7 players fell short, with a noticeable gap in between. Both parent and player talked to the coach, separately, at points in the first half of the season. Was told developing players is the primary goal, but that's not happening for everybody. It's fine to lean on the "top dogs" for tougher games, but then the deficient players could get extra PT in weaker games. That didn't happen, though. For my kid, PT got worse as the season progressed.
So opinions are welcome. Is this life in the big city, or a coach/club that should be dancing with the players that were selected?
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Post by soccernoleuk on Mar 8, 2023 17:30:06 GMT -5
This is, of course, a very delicate topic.
I agree developing players should be a top priority. However, once past U12 that hardly ever seems to be the case. By the time you get to U15+, especially at the ECNL level, it is more about winning.
With that said, I do believe everyone should see the field in every game. However, I am a big believer in "earned not given", so the amount of playing time will depend on a lot of different factors. As for showcases and out of town travel (yes, even for league games), I do believe there should be a minimum time a player gets. Don't ask a player & their family to travel if you don't plan to play them more than 10 minutes a weekend.
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Post by soccerdad76 on Mar 8, 2023 17:43:21 GMT -5
Worth mentioning that showcases are not included, but followed a similar pattern. Didn’t exactly showcase everybody.
as far as what’s earned vs deserved, yes that’s tricky. My kid missed no more than a few practices for the whole season. Top players would sometimes only make 1 practice for the week (it was admittedly rare), but see no drop off in PT. Lower players miss 1-2 and would get “punished” with even less PT, maybe 10 minutes.
The biggest problem was it was hard to stay positive and motivated. Some work harder, some lay down 🤷♂️
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Post by bogan on Mar 8, 2023 17:53:35 GMT -5
It comes down to what the player and the parents are getting out of it. Perhaps drop down a league if playing time is getting shorter(ECNL down to ECRNL). Perhaps changing clubs is the answer if you’ve been with the same club and coach for several years and your player has been type casted as a bench player. It doesn’t do any good to go to a top level show case and your son/daughter doesn’t get showcased.
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Post by soccerdad76 on Mar 8, 2023 18:15:54 GMT -5
Def a lot to consider for next year. I guess the question is this par for the course for the poor saps that are on the bottom third of a team? There will always be disparities in talent from top to bottom for any team, it’s just a matter of how the coach handles it.
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Post by alphabetleague on Mar 8, 2023 19:45:10 GMT -5
From my experience it’s par especially at that age. Most definitely in club and in some more competitive high schools. I think it has to be a conversation with the coach when the roster spot is offered. Ii believe most coaches would be forthcoming. dropping down a league the next year is an option but may not be a fix all either. My child plays ECRL around this age group and the team picked up 8 or so ECNL players who were in the bottom 1/3rd of the ECNL team. Half of those sat the bench on ECRL because they were out of shape.
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Post by atlantasoccerdad2020 on Mar 8, 2023 21:00:16 GMT -5
Def a lot to consider for next year. I guess the question is this par for the course for the poor saps that are on the bottom third of a team? There will always be disparities in talent from top to bottom for any team, it’s just a matter of how the coach handles it. Looks like they play their defensive players almost full game. Any chance your child is interested in defense if not already playing that position? I am sure they could use the relief and developing a new position is not always a bad thing. |
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Post by atlantasoccerdad2020 on Mar 8, 2023 21:02:49 GMT -5
This is, of course, a very delicate topic. I agree developing players should be a top priority. However, once past U12 that hardly ever seems to be the case. By the time you get to U15+, especially at the ECNL level, it is more about winning. With that said, I do believe everyone should see the field in every game. However, I am a big believer in "earned not given", so the amount of playing time will depend on a lot of different factors. As for showcases and out of town travel (yes, even for league games), I do believe there should be a minimum time a player gets. Don't ask a player & their family to travel if you don't plan to play them more than 10 minutes a weekend. This sounds fine and dandy if the opponent does that when they travel as well. We all know that is not the case. |
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Post by soccerloafer on Mar 8, 2023 22:19:15 GMT -5
It's not going to change. If your player is unhappy with development and playing time, leave. Situations like this almost never improve, short of a spate of injuries or outright bribery.
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Post by mightydawg on Mar 8, 2023 22:21:19 GMT -5
At that level, playing time is earned and should not be equal. However, there should be clear expectations set by coach and the coach should communicate with each player what is needed to earn additional playing time. Also, when the player is playing well and doing the things the coach asks, player should be rewarded with extra playing time.
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Post by soccerparent02 on Mar 9, 2023 8:29:12 GMT -5
Once a player gets to a certain age, the 50% standard ceases to exist. Kid played defender on an ecnl top nationally ranked team. Coach subbed out the defense 10 mins per game, the last 5 mins of the first half and the first 5 mins of the second half. Thesr 10 mins plus halftime provided the rest needed to play tbe remaining minutes. Also, development doesn't just happen during games. Most occurs during training.
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Post by soccerdad76 on Mar 9, 2023 8:49:30 GMT -5
At that level, playing time is earned and should not be equal. However, there should be clear expectations set by coach and the coach should communicate with each player what is needed to earn additional playing time. Also, when the player is playing well and doing the things the coach asks, player should be rewarded with extra playing time. This. We (parents) never had the expectation that it would be equal, sorry if that's what it's sounding like. We were told that it would in fact not be equal, and be based on several factors (skill, practice - performance/effort/presence, etc). We we not told how big that playing time gap might be, and had to learn the hard way that could be 10-20 minutes for a given game for a number of players. Even when traveling out of town. Even when down a player after a 1st half red cards and running the regulars into the ground.
I have eyes. For the most part the playing time distribution falls in line with the player's skill/effectiveness level. But the bottom players on this team are good... there's not a huge drop-off in talent. As far as playing well, I also have eyes for that. There were plenty of times where a top player had an off game/weekend/month and one of the subs was performing great, but didn't seem to get rewarded with extra playing time, either immediately or in following games. Extra for one means less for another of course, but the coach didn't seem to change the script and just stuck with the usual.
I realize this coach could be particularly bad about this, so this is part survey, part blowing off steam after a frustrating season. HS has been a welcome change  |
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Post by soccerdad76 on Mar 9, 2023 9:02:24 GMT -5
Once a player gets to a certain age, the 50% standard ceases to exist. Kid played defender on an ecnl top nationally ranked team. Coach subbed out the defense 10 mins per game, the last 5 mins of the first half and the first 5 mins of the second half. Thesr 10 mins plus halftime provided the rest needed to play tbe remaining minutes. Also, development doesn't just happen during games. Most occurs during training. Yeah, "I do player development during training and play games to win no matter what" would have been more accurate |
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Post by bogan on Mar 9, 2023 9:15:38 GMT -5
At that level, playing time is earned and should not be equal. However, there should be clear expectations set by coach and the coach should communicate with each player what is needed to earn additional playing time. Also, when the player is playing well and doing the things the coach asks, player should be rewarded with extra playing time. This. We (parents) never had the expectation that it would be equal, sorry if that's what it's sounding like. We were told that it would in fact not be equal, and be based on several factors (skill, practice - performance/effort/presence, etc). We we not told how big that playing time gap might be, and had to learn the hard way that could be 10-20 minutes for a given game for a number of players. Even when traveling out of town. Even when down a player after a 1st half red cards and running the regulars into the ground.
I have eyes. For the most part the playing time distribution falls in line with the player's skill/effectiveness level. But the bottom players on this team are good... there's not a huge drop-off in talent. As far as playing well, I also have eyes for that. There were plenty of times where a top player had an off game/weekend/month and one of the subs was performing great, but didn't seem to get rewarded with extra playing time, either immediately or in following games. Extra for one means less for another of course, but the coach didn't seem to change the script and just stuck with the usual.
I realize this coach could be particularly bad about this, so this is part survey, part blowing off steam after a frustrating season. HS has been a welcome change Yeah-know the feeling. Don’t want to go into too much b/c I know too many people on this board, but it was a bad year for us. Rethinking what’s really important in life at this point. |
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Post by soccerloafer on Mar 9, 2023 9:30:01 GMT -5
"Yeah-know the feeling. Don’t want to go into too much b/c I know too many people on this board, but it was a bad year for us. Rethinking what’s really important in life at this point."
Never ever skip important family events for soccer. Weddings, funerals, major birthdays for elders. Family is forever, sports are transitory. There will be another tournament or showcase, but your grandparents only have one 50th anniversary party.
Learned the hard way.
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Post by Soccerhouse on Mar 9, 2023 9:34:08 GMT -5
Playing time is age dependent for sure.
But even at the younger ages, usually you have 2-3 players that play more minutes than other kids, and don't get subbed out in the same pattern etc.
As the kids age on a truly competitive team, equal playing time is no longer a thing. I've seen it all, but I think lets say on a top u17 boys ecnl team
typically the back 4 doesn't change and those players are rarely subed. Maybe you sub a left/right back, but your 2 center backs play the entire game.
Also, usually 2 of the central midfield players do not get subbed out either. That's right around 4-5 player who don't get subbed. Then the remaining spots move around an I see player interchange.
Hence -- 2 keepers split time and paly 1/2 game
Forward, left and right middy, and one central player are subbed out.
this usually means these 3-4 field players play 1/2 a game, and maybe 1 or 2 players sit for 10-20 minutes.
Back in the DA boys days, you never saw subs in the first half, very rare given their stupid no entry rule.
So it sucked, because right off the bat you knew, if your kid didn't start, at best they were only getting in for a half.
No re-entry for subs needs to go away in my opinion, it hinders subs, and keeps kids from getting on the field etc. ECNL should be using the college sub rules, and like college subs have to be quick --
I've observed some crazy stuff, and had a kid a part of a meaningless DA game, where we lost 2-0 and the coach didn't make a single sub the entire 80 minute game. Mind boggling. We all walked away saying the coach should be in jail. a dang crime was committed that day.
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Post by randomparent on Mar 9, 2023 10:20:33 GMT -5
This is for an ECNL team, high school age. Primary position is listed (and secondary if applicable). Goalkeepers have been omitted to focus on field players. When all players are available, there are 16 field players for 10 spots. The perfect division of time is based on number of players per game, which varies of course. It came out to be about 68% PT for the season. I do not expect everyone to play perfectly evenly distributed minutes, just showing it for reference. Games missed are not counted as zero minutes; a player has to be available to be factored in.
I would generally expect everyone to play a minimum of half of a game over the course of a season. For this team 9 players are above that and 7 players fell short, with a noticeable gap in between. Both parent and player talked to the coach, separately, at points in the first half of the season. Was told developing players is the primary goal, but that's not happening for everybody. It's fine to lean on the "top dogs" for tougher games, but then the deficient players could get extra PT in weaker games. That didn't happen, though. For my kid, PT got worse as the season progressed.
So opinions are welcome. Is this life in the big city, or a coach/club that should be dancing with the players that were selected?
I am sorry this is happening to your kid. It sucks as a parent, and it takes a toll on their confidence. My family has experience this also. 1. Respect the life lessons sports can teach. That life is hard, it sucks, and can be cruel, and it can be awesome too. It will make their life easier to deal with in their 20's at their first job. 2. Ask your kid what they want, and encourage them to decide on their own, that your not disappointed or let down. Some kids prefer the grind, most dont. 3. Playing is almost always better than not playing. Drop to ECRL or move clubs, let your kid be the star. After the first couple of practices they will forget about ECNL and love that they are the star, coach loves them. Everyone should be doing this for FUN. 4. And this is controversial but I feel like it is important to keep saying it, ECNL is expensive competitive rec soccer wrapped up with gold and glitter, at the top of a youth soccer pyramid that is absolutely meaningless. Unless your 05/06/07 player is already playing youth national team, or is the absolute stud at ECNL then it is parent puffing their chest out expensive and very competitive rec soccer. No one but other ECNL parents care, MLS Next parents think your in a scrub league, college coaches want to bring in internationals, and if you get a partial scholarship to d2/d3 northwest Idaho community tech (made that school up) you have a decent chance they want to quit their 28 person roster with no playing time. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Mar 9, 2023 15:12:39 GMT -5
At that level, playing time is earned and should not be equal. However, there should be clear expectations set by coach and the coach should communicate with each player what is needed to earn additional playing time. Also, when the player is playing well and doing the things the coach asks, player should be rewarded with extra playing time. In a perfect world this would happen, but it rarely does. Winning and egos get in the way of development of individual players lots of times. Anyone heard of confirmation bias? If you don't know what it is, it is when a person has formed an opinion of you and despite actual changes happening they don't see it. They only see their original decision. This is why kids have to change clubs many times. The coach from the present team tells the coach that has your team next year that you are slow or lack physicality or lack speed of play. Despite you working your tail off and improving they just see that initial opinion. Both of my kids have been the victim of confirmation bias at times. It is also what keeps some kids on the top teams when they no longer deserve it. It works for positive and negative things. You often see what you want to see. |
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Post by oraclesfriend on Mar 9, 2023 15:26:57 GMT -5
This is for an ECNL team, high school age. Primary position is listed (and secondary if applicable). Goalkeepers have been omitted to focus on field players. When all players are available, there are 16 field players for 10 spots. The perfect division of time is based on number of players per game, which varies of course. It came out to be about 68% PT for the season. I do not expect everyone to play perfectly evenly distributed minutes, just showing it for reference. Games missed are not counted as zero minutes; a player has to be available to be factored in.
I would generally expect everyone to play a minimum of half of a game over the course of a season. For this team 9 players are above that and 7 players fell short, with a noticeable gap in between. Both parent and player talked to the coach, separately, at points in the first half of the season. Was told developing players is the primary goal, but that's not happening for everybody. It's fine to lean on the "top dogs" for tougher games, but then the deficient players could get extra PT in weaker games. That didn't happen, though. For my kid, PT got worse as the season progressed.
So opinions are welcome. Is this life in the big city, or a coach/club that should be dancing with the players that were selected?
I am sorry this is happening to your kid. It sucks as a parent, and it takes a toll on their confidence. My family has experience this also. 1. Respect the life lessons sports can teach. That life is hard, it sucks, and can be cruel, and it can be awesome too. It will make their life easier to deal with in their 20's at their first job. 2. Ask your kid what they want, and encourage them to decide on their own, that your not disappointed or let down. Some kids prefer the grind, most dont. 3. Playing is almost always better than not playing. Drop to ECRL or move clubs, let your kid be the star. After the first couple of practices they will forget about ECNL and love that they are the star, coach loves them. Everyone should be doing this for FUN. 4. And this is controversial but I feel like it is important to keep saying it, ECNL is expensive competitive rec soccer wrapped up with gold and glitter, at the top of a youth soccer pyramid that is absolutely meaningless. Unless your 05/06/07 player is already playing youth national team, or is the absolute stud at ECNL then it is parent puffing their chest out expensive and very competitive rec soccer. No one but other ECNL parents care, MLS Next parents think your in a scrub league, college coaches want to bring in internationals, and if you get a partial scholarship to d2/d3 northwest Idaho community tech (made that school up) you have a decent chance they want to quit their 28 person roster with no playing time. Boys and Girls are very different on the international player issue btw. My kid played the top of the league level and loved it and then didn't (bad team, bad coach experience). Had a profile up with videos and has great grades and we didn't take it down. Emails still coming late into senior year offering scholarships at schools like you are saying and some not so bad ones too. They want those high level USA girls. There are so many like mine that choose not to play because they lost the fun along the way. There are still D2, 3, and NAIA schools hurting for high level players. Plenty of schools to play for if you are a girl. As an aside several schools (not for soccer) have offered 1/4-1/2 tuition academic scholarships. We should be puffing our chests out as much about that as we do committing to schools for sports. I am sad my child isn't going to play college. Doubly sad because it was a bunch of mean people that killed the joy. Mean people suck. |
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Post by soccergirlz on Mar 9, 2023 16:55:13 GMT -5
Do you believe the player has developed over the season? Do you / player like the coach? Does the player like the team? Putting playing time aside, what is keeping the player with the team?
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Post by katieatlsoccer on Mar 9, 2023 22:16:35 GMT -5
Playing time is age dependent for sure. But even at the younger ages, usually you have 2-3 players that play more minutes than other kids, and don't get subbed out in the same pattern etc. As the kids age on a truly competitive team, equal playing time is no longer a thing. I've seen it all, but I think lets say on a top u17 boys ecnl team typically the back 4 doesn't change and those players are rarely subed. Maybe you sub a left/right back, but your 2 center backs play the entire game. Also, usually 2 of the central midfield players do not get subbed out either. That's right around 4-5 player who don't get subbed. Then the remaining spots move around an I see player interchange. Hence -- 2 keepers split time and paly 1/2 game Forward, left and right middy, and one central player are subbed out. this usually means these 3-4 field players play 1/2 a game, and maybe 1 or 2 players sit for 10-20 minutes. Back in the DA boys days, you never saw subs in the first half, very rare given their stupid no entry rule. So it sucked, because right off the bat you knew, if your kid didn't start, at best they were only getting in for a half. No re-entry for subs needs to go away in my opinion, it hinders subs, and keeps kids from getting on the field etc. ECNL should be using the college sub rules, and like college subs have to be quick -- I've observed some crazy stuff, and had a kid a part of a meaningless DA game, where we lost 2-0 and the coach didn't make a single sub the entire 80 minute game. Mind boggling. We all walked away saying the coach should be in jail. a dang crime was committed that day. We see this already with our U9 team very little substitution of the defense players. I don’t mind at all but just curious as to why that’s the case and how it relates to game strategy? |
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Post by Whistledown on Mar 9, 2023 22:43:46 GMT -5
Playing time is age dependent for sure. But even at the younger ages, usually you have 2-3 players that play more minutes than other kids, and don't get subbed out in the same pattern etc. As the kids age on a truly competitive team, equal playing time is no longer a thing. I've seen it all, but I think lets say on a top u17 boys ecnl team typically the back 4 doesn't change and those players are rarely subed. Maybe you sub a left/right back, but your 2 center backs play the entire game. Also, usually 2 of the central midfield players do not get subbed out either. That's right around 4-5 player who don't get subbed. Then the remaining spots move around an I see player interchange. Hence -- 2 keepers split time and paly 1/2 game Forward, left and right middy, and one central player are subbed out. this usually means these 3-4 field players play 1/2 a game, and maybe 1 or 2 players sit for 10-20 minutes. Back in the DA boys days, you never saw subs in the first half, very rare given their stupid no entry rule. So it sucked, because right off the bat you knew, if your kid didn't start, at best they were only getting in for a half. No re-entry for subs needs to go away in my opinion, it hinders subs, and keeps kids from getting on the field etc. ECNL should be using the college sub rules, and like college subs have to be quick -- I've observed some crazy stuff, and had a kid a part of a meaningless DA game, where we lost 2-0 and the coach didn't make a single sub the entire 80 minute game. Mind boggling. We all walked away saying the coach should be in jail. a dang crime was committed that day. We see this already with our U9 team very little substitution of the defense players. I don’t mind at all but just curious as to why that’s the case and how it relates to game strategy? Very rarely will you see the CB or the 6 subbed out. This is because defenders are the lock. Offensive is the key. When the lock isn’t broken, it’s working, so no need to sub out. Often, you need to sub the “key” (ie the forwards and offensive players) to try to find a better way to unlock the game. Additionally, CB and 6 don’t cover as much ground as say a wingback or CM, so they have more “rest” time on the field. |
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Post by katieatlsoccer on Mar 10, 2023 1:16:59 GMT -5
[/quote]
Very rarely will you see the CB or the 6 subbed out. This is because defenders are the lock. Offensive is the key. When the lock isn’t broken, it’s working, so no need to sub out.
Often, you need to sub the “key” (ie the forwards and offensive players) to try to find a better way to unlock the game.
Additionally, CB and 6 don’t cover as much ground as say a wingback or CM, so they have more “rest” time on the field.
[/quote]
This was so helpful. Thank you!
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Post by newguy on Mar 11, 2023 10:32:11 GMT -5
We see this already with our U9 team very little substitution of the defense players. I don’t mind at all but just curious as to why that’s the case and how it relates to game strategy? Very rarely will you see the CB or the 6 subbed out. This is because defenders are the lock. Offensive is the key. When the lock isn’t broken, it’s working, so no need to sub out. Often, you need to sub the “key” (ie the forwards and offensive players) to try to find a better way to unlock the game. Additionally, CB and 6 don’t cover as much ground as say a wingback or CM, so they have more “rest” time on the field. I agree with all of this and would add that consistency at CB, and the back line in general, is beneficial for GK communication so that everyone is on the same page in the really tight situations. |
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Post by soccernoleuk on Mar 11, 2023 14:24:26 GMT -5
Very rarely will you see the CB or the 6 subbed out. This is because defenders are the lock. Offensive is the key. When the lock isn’t broken, it’s working, so no need to sub out. Often, you need to sub the “key” (ie the forwards and offensive players) to try to find a better way to unlock the game. Additionally, CB and 6 don’t cover as much ground as say a wingback or CM, so they have more “rest” time on the field. I agree with all of this and would add that consistency at CB, and the back line in general, is beneficial for GK communication so that everyone is on the same page in the really tight situations. I agree as well, for older age groups. For U9, and other younger age groups, nobody should be pigeon holed into a single position. All players should receive similar playing time, as well as play multiple positions. This will help develop them for the future and make them better all around players. |
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Post by rifle on Mar 11, 2023 15:49:51 GMT -5
If your ECNL kid is getting so little playing time that you keep a spreadsheet to track it - go speak to the DOC and ask to be moved to a lower team NOW. There is no logic at all in paying thousands to travel and sit on the bench. Is it bull crap that the coach has done this? Yes. Should you just suffer? No!
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Post by bogan on Mar 11, 2023 16:57:23 GMT -5
If your ECNL kid is getting so little playing time that you keep a spreadsheet to track it - go speak to the DOC and ask to be moved to a lower team NOW. There is no logic at all in paying thousands to travel and sit on the bench. Is it bull crap that the coach has done this? Yes. Should you just suffer? No! Or just leave. In the middle of the night. No fuss-just go. Edit-that’s my M.O. Why, b/c I’ve never seen anything improve by talking to the DOC. Maybe others have had better experiences. |
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Post by atlsoccer123 on Mar 11, 2023 23:08:22 GMT -5
If your ECNL kid is getting so little playing time that you keep a spreadsheet to track it - go speak to the DOC and ask to be moved to a lower team NOW. There is no logic at all in paying thousands to travel and sit on the bench. Is it bull crap that the coach has done this? Yes. Should you just suffer? No! Or just leave. In the middle of the night. No fuss-just go. Edit-that’s my M.O. Why, b/c I’ve never seen anything improve by talking to the DOC. Maybe others have had better experiences. Yes. Talking to the DOC, CEO, whoever... It makes no difference. They do what they do and make their money and, sadly, a parent complaining or voicing concerns has no impact. It's all about their bottom line. |
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Post by NotherSoccerParent on Mar 12, 2023 9:45:55 GMT -5
Ultimately, it should come down to what your kid wants. Does he want to to stay on a top team and play less or drop to a lower team and play more? We had one kid "drop" to a second team for more play time and the kid is loving it. The cost however is no national tournament this summer. As parents, we should not fool ourselves or our kids into thinking they are going to play "pro soccer" at any level so allow them to choose, especially when they are high school age. You are correct that no matter how much training a kid does, without game time, they will not progress and may go backwards. As others have said, if you don't get anywhere with the coach, don't expect that going up the chain, you will get anywhere. There is no loyalty from the top down to a player, even if that kid has been at a club for > 10 years and has been on the top team during that time.
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Post by allthingsoccer on Mar 12, 2023 19:14:41 GMT -5
Unfortunately thats the way it is. College is even worse.
Apply it to like football. 1st string (75-100% time), 2nd string(45-74%), 3rd string (25-44%). etc..
Maybe she/ he should talk to coach. Weaker games try and get play time. What do i need to do in order to get more play time?
Training is when most of the development happens.
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